# What's the Straight Dope on Sedevacantism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080 "2012-01-01T20:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/1 "2012-01-01T20:34:13Z")
(note: I realize that I’m asking a question, but since it’s a very broad question and it’s about religion, I figured I should put it here.) When I was in high school, I had a friend named Charlie. While we were in school together, he converted to Catholicism and became a bit of a fanatic. I didn’t think very much of it at the time, and after we graduated we lost touch. Hoo, boy… I recently tried to track it down, and it turns out that he is now neck-deep in Sedevacantism. He had previously run a Facebook group about burning books (and people) and how we should go back to having kings and how the French Revolution was the greatest apocalypse in history. Now, he is apparently a contributor for a blog about the same. I think he even got expelled from college. I tried to talk to him a bit, but he’s wrapped up entirely in his personal crusade. I don’t think he considers himself my friend anymore, though I like to think I’m still his - or would be, if he’d have me. To me, this looks like a cult situation, or it would be if they all got together in one place. What is the deal with Sedevacantism? As far as I can tell, it seems to be people who want to have their cake and eat it, too - they love the idea of having an infallible church, but they don’t think their church is being very infallible. Where does it come from? Are they just a total fringe group, or do they represent the coalescence of a larger phenomenon? Are their sentiments popular, and are they dangerous? Also: yes, this is my first post, but I’ve been lurking for like six years. Got a new computer for christmas, been setting it up, thought I’d join. Glad to be here, et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/2 "2012-01-01T20:48:56Z")
For others who had no idea what [sedavantism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) is. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/3 "2012-01-01T20:54:16Z")
Welcome the SDMB, Scholar Beardpig! … Yeah, I don’t know really. Religious groups do that sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/4 "2012-01-01T21:05:12Z")
Hmm…I’ve heard the word in the sense of Catholics that reject Vatican II, but I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone calling for a return to Monarchy and people burning! Do you have a link to the blog you were talking about? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/5 "2012-01-01T21:14:33Z")
I’m no expert, but I think it’s a very fringe position. Even the “traditionalists” followers of Mgr Lefebvre who rose in opposition to the decisions of the Vatican II council, and were themselves quite a marginal (though not insignificant) group never went as far as espousing sedevacantism. They might have thought the Pope was in error, but not so much so that he wasn’t legitimate. By the way, if I’m not mistiken, some sedevacantist even elected somehow their own pope. Those must be the fringe of the fringe of the marginals. ETA : I never heard of anyone wanting to burn people, either. OTOH, wishing a return to monarchy isn’t something I find that surprising for a _French_ catholic integrist. I’m quite surprised, though, that an American (I suppose) would espouse such a position. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/6 "2012-01-01T21:26:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > ETA : I never heard of anyone wanting to burn people, either. OTOH, wishing a return to monarchy isn’t something I find that surprising for a _French_ catholic integrist. I’m quite surprised, though, that an American (I suppose) would espouse such a position. He was an American born-and-raised, but his ancestors were Acadians, so I guess that’s where he got it. Once this mythical New Catholic Monarchy was created - he called it Ascalonia - he told me about how the first order of business would be to put all non-Catholics in camps… Has the Pope, or a Pope, ever made a concrete statement on these guys, or is the Catholic far-right just a badly-kept secret? It seems like this is the sort of thing popes would come down on hard. I imagine that **Bricker** , being the expert on all things Catholic, probably knows all there is to know about this. I wonder if he’ll swing by… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/7 "2012-01-02T00:03:36Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > - he called it Ascalonia - They are going to name their new nation/empire/whatever the Spanish word for a shallot? > [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > Once this mythical New Catholic Monarchy was created - he called it Ascalonia - he told me about how the first order of business would be to put all non-Catholics in camps… Catholics are still pretty well outnumbered by the rest of the world and his fringe group is composed of a few hundred ex-Catholics. He is not connected to reality in any way. > [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > -Has the Pope, or a Pope, ever made a concrete statement on these guys, or is the Catholic far-right just a badly-kept secret? It seems like this is the sort of thing popes would come down on hard. I imagine that **Bricker** , being the expert on all things Catholic, probably knows all there is to know about this. I wonder if he’ll swing by… It is not so much a secret as a bad joke. Why should the pope take any notice of a tiny group of people who have excommunicated themselves while claiming that they are the “real” church. Popes have failed to take note of these guys in the same way they have failed to take note of Jack Chick. Generally, as one person or another has decided to denounce the church and proclaim _Sede Vacante_, the local bishop will have declared them wrong. If the person is a bishop, priest, or teacher, the bishop will have removed him (or her) from any position of authority in the church and told them that they would be allowed back if they renounced their error. As Clairobscur noted, even Lefebvre refused to go along with sedevacantism and if you can’t get the biggest heresiarch in the last century to go along with you, you are pretty much the fringe of the fringe. As to some odd Catholic Monarchy, I suspect that that group is the fringe on the fringe of the fringe. I know of most of the odd reactions to Vatican II, and I had not heard of them prior to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/8 "2012-01-02T09:23:03Z")
I am going to go out on a limb and link to a piece of his work, in fact, the only piece of his work that I could readily find - most of his great screeds were on Facebook, and he has taken them all down. (I would like to believe that it’s because I trounced him, but more likely it’s because he wised up and decided to be less public.) > **[Sign in - Google Accounts](https://accounts.google.com/v3/signin/identifier?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogger.com%2Fblogin%3Fu%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Frencesvals.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F10%2Fdomino-gloria-lessons-from-lepanto.html&followup=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogger.com%2Fblogin%3Fu%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Frencesvals.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F10%2Fdomino-gloria-lessons-from-lepanto.html&ifkv=AdBytiP-lMN4gZA_QLctXyrARllLfpxiseirwUkD_PLIuIJ2VfIUfy3upiCobafUM7d_DOdaV85X&passive=1209600&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin&dsh=S691078904%3A1753137771079364)** This is my favorite part. It’s not a quotation, it’s something he wrote in absolute, chilling seriousness. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, in Europe, heresy was rampant; all of northern Europe was lost to the darkness of joyless Protestant individualism; northern German princes greedily stopped paying tribute to Christ, saving tax revenues for their own disposal. In 1562, the perfidious Huguenots infected France like the plague, stalking the countryside in full armour, killing Christians, destroying monasteries, and desecrating Our Lord in His churches. With the Social Kingship of Christ being undermined by positive treason from within, and the power of the cursèd Mohammedans growing daily without, many Christians asked themselves the natural question : Is God punishing us for our lukewarmness and our sins ? Christendom was at its nadir; the orthodox Faith was being attacked by infidels on all sides, and now the Mohammedans were beginning a campaign directly against the Italian peninsula itself in the hope to take Rome and destroy Christianity once and for all. After some crafty Googling, the last thing I saw about him was from 2010. I hope the poor man’s not getting himself in trouble… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/9 "2012-01-02T14:05:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They are going to name their new nation/empire/whatever the Spanish word for a shallot? As God has declared, so shallot be. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/10 "2012-01-02T16:14:32Z")
You win. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/11 "2012-01-02T17:11:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They are going to name their new nation/empire/whatever the Spanish word for a shallot? Ascalon is Ashkelon, an ancient city on the Isreali coast and the site of an important battle in the First Crusade. It’s name was given to the lance carried by St. George when he slew that dragon. The name is also used in the Guild Wars video game. > **[Ascalon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascalon)** > > Ascalon or Ashkelon\[a\] was an ancient Near East port city on the Mediterranean coast of the southern Levant of high historical and archaeological significance. Its remains are located in the archaeological site of Tel Ashkelon, within the city limits of the modern Israeli city of Ashkelon. Traces of settlement exist from the 3rd millennium BCE, with evidence of city fortifications emerging in the Middle Bronze Age. During the Late Bronze Age, it was integrated into the Egyptian Empire, before bec... ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/12 "2012-01-02T18:05:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not so much a secret as a bad joke. Why should the pope take any notice of a tiny group of people who have excommunicated themselves while claiming that they are the “real” church. Popes have failed to take note of these guys in the same way they have failed to take note of Jack Chick. That’s not quite true. Sedevacantism is only one degree more extreme than the Society of St. Pius X, which believes nearly all of the same things but stops short of explicitly denying the legitimacy of the Pope. The Papacy has been heavily involved in negotiating with, condemning, reinstituting, and so on, towards the SSPX and the priests it has consecrated. Catholics who want to hold on to the mandatory Latin mass, to anti-Semitism, to whatever else the sedevacantists reject about Vatican II are a substantial minority within the Church that the Papacy has been engaging with in various ways ever since Vatican II happened. It’s not equivalent to one American Protestant leaving brochures in lobbies. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/13 "2012-01-02T19:34:55Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > That’s not quite true. Sedevacantism is only one degree more extreme than the Society of St. Pius X, which believes nearly all of the same things but stops short of explicitly denying the legitimacy of the Pope. The Papacy has been heavily involved in negotiating with, condemning, reinstituting, and so on, towards the SSPX and the priests it has consecrated. Catholics who want to hold on to the mandatory Latin mass, to anti-Semitism, to whatever else the sedevacantists reject about Vatican II are a substantial minority within the Church that the Papacy has been engaging with in various ways ever since Vatican II happened. It’s not equivalent to one American Protestant leaving brochures in lobbies. My comment was in regards to the particular extreme fringe talking about restoring the world to a God appointed monarchy, so it is, as I noted, on the fringe of sedevacantism that is on the fringe of the SSPX bunch, that is on the fringe of the far right of the church. Spending effort on that extreme group is like bothering to correct the lies and errors of Chick. On the other hand, your “substantial minority” is much more minority than substantial. We are still talking about a set of disparate groups, not all of whom agree with each other, numbering in the thousands\* among an institution numbering over a billion. Even folks following the Pius X society vary from people who supported Lefebvre to the point of excommunicaton to folks who would just like to attend Mass in Latin. The church is never going to return to a global policy of approving only the Tridentine, (much less Latin), Mass. And while Lefebvre’s bunch, specifically, certainly harbored a fair amount of anti-semitism, (including one real-life former Vichy officer), the expressions of anti-semitism within that group have tended to put periodic halts to any efforts at reconciliation. - There are only around 500 priests, 120 brothers, and 170 sisters in SSPX. In the unlikely event that every priest had a congregation of 1,000 parishoners, there would be around a half million lay followers of SSPX. For that number, (concentrated in a relatively few countries), even though they number less that 0.05% of the church, the church is going to try to keep open lines of communication. Not so much for a handful of bloggers. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/14 "2012-01-02T19:36:37Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Ascalon is Ashkelon, an ancient city on the Isreali coast and the site of an important battle in the First Crusade. It’s name was given to the lance carried by St. George when he slew that dragon. Thank you. _(I wonder if dragons are related to vampires, defeated by shallots instead of garlic?)_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/15 "2012-01-02T19:46:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By the way, if I’m not mistiken, some sedevacantist even elected somehow their own pope. Those must be the fringe of the fringe of the marginals. There are at least four [Conclavist antipopes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism#Conclavist_antipopes) ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/16 "2012-01-02T19:49:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And while Lefebvre’s bunch, specifically, certainly harbored a fair amount of anti-semitism, (including one real-life former Vichy officer), the expressions of anti-semitism within that group have tended to put periodic halts to any efforts at reconciliation. > **[Pope Reinstates Four Excommunicated Bishops (Published 2009)](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=all)** > > Among the four reinstated bishops, one had stirred outrage with comments denying the Holocaust. It seems that actual Holocaust denial is no barrier at all to said reconciliation. The anti-Semitism has nothing to do with what remaining opposition to Lefebvrism the current Pope has; as long as they agree in principle to his authority he obviously could not care less. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/17 "2012-01-03T00:30:14Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=all) > > It seems that actual Holocaust denial is no barrier at all to said reconciliation. The anti-Semitism has nothing to do with what remaining opposition to Lefebvrism the current Pope has; as long as they agree in principle to his authority he obviously could not care less. Old news that you apparently did not follow. Williamson’s comments were aired on Swedish TV during the period when the reversal of the excommunication was being arranged. It was released on the internet just days before the announcement was made. Once the the Swedisn show hit the internet, the Vatican announced that while the excommunication of all four bishops had been reversed, Williamson would be prohibited from exercising any episcopal duties until he renounced his pro-Nazi views. Williamson issued a half-hearted apology that the Vatican utterly rejected, leaving him with no position in the church. Williamson’s SSPX superior then further apologized for Williamson’s behavior and added his own command that Williamson refrain from any public statements or activities. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/18 "2012-01-03T01:25:41Z")
Well, if Benedict XVI is not conservative enough for the Sedevacantists, I wonder who would be? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/19 "2012-01-03T02:12:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, if Benedict XVI is not conservative enough for the Sedevacantists, I wonder who would be? [Pius IX?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabus_of_Errors) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080/20 "2012-01-03T02:58:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By the way, if I’m not mistiken, some sedevacantist even elected somehow their own pope. Those must be the fringe of the fringe of the marginals. I think there might be a couple of antipopes floating around. The one I know about is Pope Michael of Kansas, who was elected pope by a conclave consisting of, if I remember right, his parents and next-door neighbors or something. Apparently the poor guy takes the whole thing pretty seriously, and issues encyclicals and papal pronouncements every now and then. I don’t think he has much of a following (actually, I don’t think he has _any_ following). I don’t even think he’s a priest, let alone a bishop. As far as I can tell, the sedevacantists are just plain nuts. Even the Lefevebrists (a/k/a the Society of St. Pius X) are pretty nuts. And, if you ask me, they’re taken way too seriously by the Vatican, who ought to just ignore them to death. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-sedevacantism/608080.md?page=2)