# What's the True Cost of Mass Immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396 "2002-10-08T17:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/61 "2002-10-09T20:31:33Z")
**Kukulkon** , I took on your posts, point by point, with substantive replies, but you somehow seem to have overlooked it. Would you like to try again, or are my thoughts to be discounted because I’m an immigrant? Since this was your first point and you brought it up again today, let me repeat myself. I’m an unemployed immigrant who is a naturalized citizen. I’m included in the government’s statistics of those who are unemployed. In _your_ opinion, should I be counted among those who are unemployed or am I someone who, when employed, is taking jobs away from Americans? For the record, I immigrated to this country with my family when I was 2 1/2 years old. I’m particularly interested in seeing your reply to my entire post. CJ ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/62 "2002-10-09T21:01:13Z")
Eva Luna: > [@](#): > > To elaborate a bit further, in my 3-1/2 years working for the Office of the Immigration Judge, I was present at literally thousands of deportation hearings. Nearly without exception, able-bodied undocumented immigrants work. Given, this is anecdotal, but of the cases I saw tried on the merits, probably 80-90% of the respondents were employed on the books, usually with false papers of some sort. You make a good point. Is it possible that those who have fake paperwork are more likely to be caught, though? That would tend to bias your observations towards the appearance of more immigrants having false paperwork than there really are. Apos: > [@](#): > > If people can get by without paying taxes, I’m not horribly upset about that. What’s the difference between supporting a tax cut and supporting some people (poor people especially) not paying taxes? Umm… there’s a substantial difference, if it’s the type of tax cut that I would be in favor of. I suppose there would be no difference if the sole purpose of the tax cut was to make all poor people not have to pay any taxes, but I wouldn’t agree with something like that. Apos: > [@](#): > > Aren’t tax increases, especially in a recession, bad? Why advocate them? Sorry, but your reasoning there is faulty. By your logic, we should not pursue people who commit tax evasion, because that would be like a tax increase. Apos: > [@](#): > > But it’s not any sort of “fairness” as far as “paying for your fair share of governmental services” because if such a rationale existed, we wouldn’t have progressive taxation to begin with. Yeah, well, don’t get me started on our progressive tax system. 🙂 Kukulkon: > [@](#): > > I know the truth hurts you Libs, but please allow me to move on here. Just for the record, I’m a raging Republican, and I think you’re full of it, as well. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/63 "2002-10-09T21:04:14Z")
Gah!!! I am BLIND!!! the colors!!! > [@](#): > > … And “…” to you, “sir” > [@](#): > > here is another Brain on the old dope: “Tars” > > "Probably because most “REAL AMERICAN” kids are lazy bums, while the immigrant children work hard to make their life better, and earn scholarships (that the “REAL AMERICAN” kids are too dumb to earn) " > > Ahhhh…hey tars, dude…we are talking about ILLEGALS getting their university education paid for by the American Tax payer (thats me)…NOT SCHOLARSHIPS…O.K? CITE??? You 404 lovin’ File Not Founder! > [@](#): > > (i mean IF your going to post, at least know what your posting about Porfavor? Good advice. Try following it. > [@](#): > > "Teashers spend most of their time on the problem students, not the immigrant students. My mother is a teacher at a school that is getting more and more students that speak Spanish as a native language. They are not the problem. The “Real American” children are. " > > You mother may well be a teasher…BUT…as any good Biologist knows a Sample size of… 1… is not a really a very scientific sample size…Right Mr. Biologist Sir? As opposed to your sample size of zero? Or do you have an actual cite and not a “page not found” error > [@](#): > > “I AM a biologist, and this is pretty much correct. However, immigration is not the problem, overpopulation is. What ever that serpent talk means??? The US has a lot of open spaces, and can support many more people.” > > What ever dude…I suggest you read the > Interview with Earth Day Founder Gaylord Nelson He named population as the #1 environmental problem, then went on to say, “But in this country, it’s phony to say[/COLOR] ‘I’m for the environment but not for limiting immigration.’ It’s just a fact that we can’t take all the people who want to come here.” again homie! “homie”??? Obviously, Gaylord Nelson is the stupidest person on the planet. He needs to put down the peace pipe and look outside his window and see all the open space. Then he can use this thing called logic to determine that people can go there. we only have 275 million people, we got plenty of room. if we had 1.3 billion, then he’d have something to complain about. > [@](#): > > “Maybe they{all the teachers in the USA] could learn Spanish?” > …Right!! Fantastic “logic” there Mr. Scientist Sir!!! (I smell a Nobel peace prize here !!! Yes, English first!! All those filthy Pig-Latin speakers need to dig like the greasy dogs they are!! > [@](#): > > “I agree that immigration to Massechusettes is horrible. I wouldn’t want to live there” > Actually the vast majority of ALL Americans dont really want to live ANYWHERE that Massive numbers of Immigrants are flooding into…thats why Whites have been fleeing California for years…and in the last 10 years Blacks and Jews are running out of California to avoid all of these issues! Yes, no white people are left in California, heck, here in San Fran, it is 100% Illegal Mexican Immigrants, especially in Chinatown! After all, look how low California’s population has dipped. it is down to three!! INS better just swept through and depopulate the entire state. > [@](#): > > “I AM a Californian, and i NEVER drive to work (like i want to pay $18 a day parking). So this is WRONG and a LIE.” > Once again Mr. Biologist Sir, I know that Mass Immigation has pretty much destroyed the educational system in California wait for it… Cite??? > [@](#): > > …But they must still make you guys take Statistics there at the University right? > > …and you must have learned that a sample size of…1 > isnt really a very scientific sample size right? > (BTW tars…I dont think that the study meant literally…Every single human in the state…O.K…Mr. Biologist???) So all those other people i see on the bus are figments of my imagination? even when the bus is so full i have to stand on the loading steps while the bus is moving? because there is no interest in mass transit? facinating… > [@](#): > > "So Urban Sprawl is entirely the Immigrants fault? " > NO…Its the American peoples fault for importing more people than our natural stystems can support! Im sure in your study of Biology you must have learned something about Ecology right? No, it is housing developers fault for building super expensive houses far away from the city centers, americans fault for buying those houses, the city planners faults for zoning residential and not doing urban renewal. Granted, you wouldn’t know Ecology if a zebra mussel bit you on your behind. > [@](#): > > "So buy a bike, or take the bus. and Shut yer yap! " > > [COLOR] Well thats one idea anyway…hmmm interesting…to be honest Sir I think that taking control of our Borders and getting a handle on our Immigration Issues would be the choice of the Vast majority of Americans (of all races and creeds)[/COLOR] Just look at what that popular support has done…uh,…wow. Too impressed for words i am… > [@](#): > > …and indeed thats what the Zogby POLLS have shown very clearly…a FULL ~85% of ALL Americans reject ILLEGALS in any form…moreover a FULL ~75% of ALL Americans want to stop the flood of Mass. Immigration! Statistics can be used to prove anything. 63% of people know that… (you got a cite, buddy boy? Homie? Skippy? KKK? Rodrigo? Tex Mex? Of course you don’t…) “Just means more women to turn me down for dates!!” Yea…with debate skills like this I can see that. [/quote] Yes, you showed me. I am building a cross to burn on my neighbors yard this instant. They look mexican, so the must be superrich burger king eating MASS ILLIGALS!!! > [@](#): > > \*\*\*\*Tars rant is over at this point moving on: Tars has not yet begun to rant… ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/64 "2002-10-09T21:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Kukulkon \* > \*\* > Troll? Racist? Cite please??? > …Im an @ss Hole ehhh? > Can you CITE some examples for us all. > Can you CITE some of my…ahhh…“hate rhetoric” for us…PLEASE???_\* [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=207336) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/65 "2002-10-09T21:36:49Z")
Just FYI, in case anybody else cares, here is the correct link for the Gaylord Nelson interview, which Kulkulkon has quoted twice now, and which originally appeared in the Milwaukee _Journal Sentinel_ on April 22, 2001. [http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/apr01/five22s1042101a.asp](http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/apr01/five22s1042101a.asp) > [@](#): > > From the Journal Sentinel > Last Updated: April 21, 2001 > TAKES FIVE > Earth Day founder sees some progress > (STYL)note,l Gaylord Nelson, 84, now counselor to the Wilderness Society, soaked up a love for the outdoors “by osmosis,” as a kid growing up in Clear Lake, Wis. His zest for conservation propelled him from a seat in the Wisconsin Senate into the governorship in 1958, the first Democrat to occupy the office in 25 years. By 1962, he had broadened his environmental horizons, winning election to the U.S. Senate, where he served until swept from office by incoming Reagan Republicans in 1980. By then, he was better known nationally and internationally as the founder of Earth Day, April 22, 1970, a kind of coast-to-coast teach-in that involved 20 million people. At a conference of grass roots environmental groups in Oshkosh this weekend sponsored by the River Alliance and the Gathering Waters Conservancy, Nelson responded to these questions from Journal Sentinel environmental reporter Jo Sandin: ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/66 "2002-10-09T22:13:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > \*\*Eva Luna: > You make a good point. Is it possible that those who have fake paperwork are more likely to be caught, though? That would tend to bias your observations towards the appearance of more immigrants having false paperwork than there really are. > > Jeff \*\* Sure, it’s possible. I never worked on the investigations/enforcement end of the deportation process (thank God; it’s INS’ awful job, but I suppose somebody has to do it!), so I didn’t generally find out how individuals in deportation proceedings came to INS’ attention, except in cases where it was inherent in the charging document, as in when someone (and this happens both to legal and to illegal immigrants) is being deported for a criminal conviction. It can happen all sorts of ways: workplace raids, being caught in flagrante delicto sneaking over the border, traffic stops, having an asylum application or other INS application denied and having INS notice that you’re out of legal immigration status since your tourist visa expired five years ago, anonymous tips from the angry ex-girlfriend: you get the picture. INS doesn’t tend to do a lot of workplace raids on small businesses in general, and I imagine the proportions of people who are caught in various ways will vary along regional lines. I’ve never seen any statistics on the subject, though. In any case, even undocumented immigrants who don’t show false papers to get a job still pay taxes, whether they’re working under the table or not. Basically everyone in this country pays sales taxes, and as for needing papers to get a job, you’d be amazed how many employers either ignore or are unaware of INS compliance regulations. Remember the little Form I-9 you probably had to fill out when you started your job, where they ask for either one document from List A or one each from List B and List C? Well, years ago I worked for a small translation agency, and when I asked the owner why I hadn’t had to fill one out, he said, “Well, I only hire U.S. citizens.” I asked him how they knew they were U.S. citizens if he didn’t ask them for any proof, and the most quizzical look crossed his face, and he shut up after that. I told him he could theoretically be fined thousands of dollars for each violation, and he said, “But we’ve never been audited by the IRS.” “Of course,” I said, “this has nothing to do with your taxes!” And this was an educated, literate guy who had run a business for 15 years and had hired dozens of people! Plus, he didn’t know it, but he was also committing an immigration violation by refusing to hire non-U.S. citizens. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/67 "2002-10-09T22:28:32Z")
(Sigh) Firstly, **Kuku** , the person who throws up the most words does not win the debate. > [@](#): > > Ahhhhhhhhhhhh??? Right?..Nooooooo…Correct is what you mean to say Sir (If your an honest man!)…I said that about 1/3 of the beds in our system had Immigratns sleeping in them…and as has been shown I was very correct…SIR!!! The specific point I was responding to, made by you, was: “1/3 of California’s prison population is made up of Mexican Nationals”. Neither you nor any respondents so far have provided data to back up that assertion. Until you do, I continue to say “bullshit”. Even if we limit the debate to the quote concerning “1/3 of prison beds have immigratns sleeping in them”, you are still spouting bullshit. Since nearly 100% of this country’s population is made up of immigrants (that is, persons whose ancestors emigrated from other countries), I can justifiably argue that nearly 100% of our prison population is made up of immigrants. Oh, did you mean illegal, Hispanic immigrants? Well, you didn’t say that. The link that **Photopat** posted doesn’t say that either. So, bullshit. > [@](#): > > BTW…out of all these childish posts…few even wanted to talk about the issues …as a hint to all of you (you know who you are) may i suggest that in the future…if you dont really have anything to say ON POINT…ON SUBJECT…OF INTELLEGENCE. Personally, I consider it an important sign of intelligence to be able to spell, well, “Intelligence”, but hey, that’s just me. In any event, I have not referred to other posters here, without justification, as possessing “80I.Q.”, nor have I gloated in all caps, multicolored type and several exclamation points about how smart I am and how stupid all my respondents are. If anyone is being childish, sir, it is you. Several posters have pointed out numerous errors of fact in your OP, but for some reason you have not seen fit to respond to them. In particular, **DuckDuckGoose** , who obviously has considerably more patience with jerks than I do, went to the bother of going through your mostly useless, broken links and formulated a point-by-point rebuttal. I note with interest that you haven’t replied to any of the points **DDG** raised. Do you want to debate the issues you raised or not? If so, please reply to **DDG** ’s post, as I have nothing further to say to you in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/68 "2002-10-09T23:44:09Z")
Having absolutely nothing better to do (cleaned the refrigerator coils with toothbrush–check, clipped dog’s toenails–check, made list of all important papers and filed same in new banker’s boxes–check), I decided to go look for the “1 out of 3 jail beds have immigrants sleeping in them!” factoid, by Googling “california prisons percentage hispanic”. And, actually, I found it. Sort of. [http://latino.sscnet.ucla.edu/challenge/41.htm](http://latino.sscnet.ucla.edu/challenge/41.htm) > [@](#): > > Recent figures indicate the seriousness of the situation and its disturbing direction: Hispanics accounted for more than 27% of felony arrests in 1985. Of that number, more than 77% were between 10 and 29 years of age. In 1986, when they represented only about 20% of the State’s population, Hispanics made up slightly over 30% of new felon admissions to the California Department of Corrections and accounted for 28.2% of the total prison population. Since 1983 about 30% of wards committed for the first time to the California Youth Authority have been Hispanic. (In 1988 slightly more than 33% of the 8,954 wards are Hispanic.) So if you’re an uncritical reader, this seems to say “1 out of 3 jail beds have Hispanic immigrants sleeping in them!” However, it’s clear from the rest of the article that they’re talking about _Mexican-Americans_, a.k.a. “Latinos”, not immigrants, and that they’re talking about Latinos in Southern California, where Hispanics already make up a large percentage of the population, so it’s not surprising that they make up a large percentage of the arrests and incarcerations. Here are some actual numbers from 1999, which prove that, across the entire United States, the factoid “1 out of 3 jail beds have [Hispanic] immigrants sleeping in them!” is actually not true. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/pjim99.txt](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/pjim99.txt) > [@](#): > > At midyear 1999 a majority of local jail inmates were black or Hispanic. White non-Hispanics made up 41.3% of the jail population; black non-Hispanics, 41.5%; Hispanics, 15.5%; and other races (Asians, Pacific Islanders, American Indians, and Alaska Natives), 1.7%. Wanna see it again? [ul] [li]Whites, 41.3%[/li][li]Blacks, 41.5%[/li][li]Hispanics, 15.5%[/li]Other, 1.7%[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Pythagoras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@Pythagoras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagoras)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/69 "2002-10-10T00:26:40Z")
Kulkokon, please answer the following: What would be the purpose of thinking if the possibility that your mind could change was not present? What proof can you offer that you are right and others are wrong? Clearly there are others that feel as furvently as you with the opposing opinion. And finally, why start a discussion on something that a) wont change other peoples minds and b) your opinion clearly will not change? Please back up with factual argument and do not cloud your reasoning with fallacies. My mind is not made up on the topic - so coherent analysis with proper factual grounding would be appreciated, as opposed to mindless flaming. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/70 "2002-10-10T01:14:10Z")
Has anybody noticed how simililar the name “kukulkon” is to another name, of an organization, that also contains three k’s? Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/71 "2002-10-10T04:52:28Z")
Coincidence? Yeah, that would be my guess. The pyramid at Chichen Itza is named after a Mayan god, “Kukulkan”. > **[Uxmal, Yucatan](https://sacredsites.com/americas/mexico/uxmal.html)** > > The Maya archaeological site of Uxmal in Yucatan, Mexico is famous for its Pyramid of the Magician “Kukulkan” is also evidently a character (?) from the old Star Trek animated series. [http://66.113.217.85/AnimatedSeries/KukulkanShip\_x.html](http://66.113.217.85/AnimatedSeries/KukulkanShip_x.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/72 "2002-10-10T12:42:49Z")
Why does he call everybody “homie”? Does he think we’ll believe he’s black? Does _he_ believe he’s black? Does he believe _we’re_ all black? Is he black, but with _“issues”_? :eek: Does he think he’s an extra on “In Living Color?” And, What About Naomi? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/73 "2002-10-10T13:05:05Z")
“Homie”, “homies”, and “homes” is a common form of address among white teenage males, according to my own personal observations of my own personal White Teenage Male, as he interacts with his “posse”. ---
**Author:** ![Kukulkon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e57/32.png) [@Kukulkon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kukulkon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/74 "2002-10-10T17:18:16Z")
Well it seems that a few of the kids are still up and out of bed so let me deal with them first…then well have adult time…O.K? …Tars our “Biologist” friend just keeps looking for issues (thats he wrong on!). "CITE[Article about ILLEGALS getting you to pay for their university education]??? You 404 lovin’ File Not Founder! " No problem: [" a Denver Post August 11 front page sob story urging that he get in-state university tuition" “Jesus Apodaca is in the U.S. illegally. He and the other Apodacas illegally in the U.S. are entitled to nothing. Some of the illegal young Apodacas have already benefited from taxpayer funded K-12 education.” “No doubt they’ll be studying at the expense of Colorado taxpayers soon.”] [http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm](http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm) …Next Tars demands proof that Immigration is destroying the Educational system. " Or do you have an actual cite and not a “page not found” error " No problem senor…(I must say on this though that you sure dont keep up on current events very well do you? I mean this issue has been the subject of much media for over 15 years…and you live in California?(do you ever read?) I mean…wake up Mr. California!!! “A moratorium on immigration to the Federal level would be a request I would push whole-heartedly…Don’t leave California. Stay with me. I promise to get our state back. I remember those days you talk about, and I miss them too…With ‘English Only’ as the language of our land, teachers would more aggressively teach our children to comprehend and success in the stimulation of the mind with math, and develop more freely reading and writing skills…Illegal immigrants are “ILLEGAL”. Breaking our laws in this way, is corrected with deportation immediately” Do you even know whos running for state office in California Tars??? [http://www.leavingcal.com/edie\_bukewihge.html](http://www.leavingcal.com/edie_bukewihge.html) "Then, there is immigration. The Clinton administration did little more than watch a literal invasion by illegal immigrants flowing daily across pervious borders. The epicenter of the invasion is California. To the extent that California presages what will eventually happen across the nation, it is time to send a signal: “America, we have a problem!” If you live in Idaho, you might ask, “What is the problem? Wasn’t America founded by immigrants? Isn’t immigration a good thing?” The answer is that America has carefully defined a legal way for immigrants to enter the country. The policy is generous and inclusive. Managed immigration is considered a good thing. However, the recently conducted census informs us that the number of illegal aliens in the United States is between 10 and 12 million, significantly higher than previously estimated. It is now believed that between 4 and 5 million of them are in California." > **[Conservative Columnists with Political News Commentary, Analysis](https://townhall.com/columnists/)** > > Political news commentary and analysis from today's most popular conservative columnists “The level of immigration is so massive, it’s choking the urban schools…It’s bad enough when you have desperate kids with U.S. backgrounds who require massive resources. In come kids with totally different needs, and it creates crushing burdens on urban schools. David W. Stewart, author Immigration and Education: The Crisis and the Opportunities” ““Something will have to give,” says political scientist Jay Bernstein, a former Cal State professor. “Either taxes will have to rise or spending priorities must change or many thousands of students will soon find themselves outside the college campuses they’ve long anticipated they would almost automatically attend.” Washington Times, “Campuses brace for student avalanche,” December 26, 1997.” "IMMIGRANTS ARE OVERWHELMING SCHOOL SYSTEMS Schools are already overcrowded; there are six million more children in school now than 10 years ago. By 2002, the school population will grow from 49 million to 55 million–because of immigration. Without school-age immigrants (about 250,000 a year) and the children of immigrants (about 725,000 a year), school enrollment would not be rising at all. For example, in Miami in 1995, foreign students streamed into the public school system at a rate of 120 a day. In 1995, New York City had to create a special high school in Queens just for the children of immigrants. In San Francisco, where one in every three public school student is in a “limited English” program, a separate Newcomer High School has been created for immigrants. Nationwide, the number of students with limited English has doubled to 3.5 million, according to the U.S. Department of Education." [http://www.fairus.org/html/04126611.htm](http://www.fairus.org/html/04126611.htm) Now that we cleared all that up for you…Tars. Lets move on to your next fantastic quote: "Obviously, Gaylord Nelson is the stupidest person on the planet. He needs to put down the peace pipe and look outside his window and see all the open space. " Yea…ahhh…“obviuously”!!! I guess when you get your PHD in Science…Become a Senator…start your own Enviromental organisation…and awarded the title of "the most important American Enviromentalist since John you’ll be almost as smart as he is…ehhh Tars??? BTW…I guess ALL of the President’s Commission on Population Growth and America’s Future urged Congress to act with alacrity to stabilize the population of 200 million. They must also be “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet”??? BTWW…I guess that Ecologists such as Paul and Anne Ehrlich of Stanford University peg 150 million as the maximum level consonant with long-term habitat preservation." They must also…ALSO…be obviously the the stupidest person on the planet"?..Right Mr. “”"“Biologist”"""?? …here are some more Scientists and leaders working to wake up people like you in California (i know they have a ton of work to do!)…ALL of these people are also “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet” : [http://www.limitstogrowth.org/](http://www.limitstogrowth.org/) [http://ccir.net/](http://ccir.net/) [http://www.susps.org/](http://www.susps.org/) IMHO…you should get informed on this subject before you return to “debate”…I am shocked by your lack of knowledge on this issue…I mean you live in California for gods sake, its been a big issue there for about 25 years Sir…moreover Im sad to see a “”“Biologist” who cant seem to understand that: " the ability of an ecosystem to support a given number of humans( or any organism for that matter) IS NOT limited simply by the “open space” in that system…Mr. Biologist…there are a huge host of factors that define the carrying capacity…and any real scientists would know that…Mr. “”“Biologist”"""! When you get informed, you can run with the big dogs…until then go to bed! 🙂 moving on: El\_Kabong "Even if we limit the debate to the quote concerning “1/3 of prison beds have immigratns sleeping in them”, you are still spouting bullshit. Since nearly 100% of this country’s population is made up of immigrants (that is, persons whose ancestors emigrated from other countries), I can justifiably argue that nearly 100% of our prison population is made up of immigrants. " Serpent talk like this Sir only makes you look silly! everyone knows were NOT talking about some Jewish dude whos family came here in 1880! O.K.??? Immigrants are people who have come to this nation from other nations and their small children…Sir…I mean why play all these stupid word games? You are WRONG sir…Government stats show that about 1/3 of all beds in our jail system have an Immigrant sleeping in them! In California: “Hispanics made up slightly over 30% of new felon admissions to the California Department of Corrections and accounted for 28.2% of the total prison population. Since 1983 about 30% of wards committed for the first time to the California Youth Authority have been Hispanic. (In 1988 slightly more than 33% of the 8,954 wards are Hispanic.)” "acording to the Federal Bureau of Prisons website:www.bop.gov/fact0598.htm, nationwide (I couldn’t find the stats for California alone) the prison population of hispanics[/] is 31.7%, however Mexicans claiming Mexican citizenship account for 16%. So, whoever Kuku gets his “facts” from probably just lumped them all together. " …You stand corrected! (no need to say sorry I understand the truth is very shocking to learn!) (thats why im here!) 🙂 BTW…Folks: “Here are some actual numbers from 1999, which prove that, across the entire United States, the factoid “1 out of 3 jail beds have [Hispanic] immigrants sleeping in them!” is actually not true.” [COLOR=red] I never said that “across the entire US”…any fool would know that at other locations in the US the country of Origin for Immigrants would be different than in Mexican broder states…I mean will you people stop play all these silly word games??? …the FACT is that about ~1/3 of ALL beds in the US system have an Immigrant (…I…E…a national from outside the US) sleeping in them…CASE CLOSED!!! …now that the kids are all back in Bed, lets have some Adult time…shall we? First of all: this persons story is exactly what Im talking about people…WHY are we allowing millions of new workers to flood this nation when we already have Millions of NEW Americans rigth here who cant find good JOBS?? cjhoworth "'m an unemployed immigrant who is a naturalized citizen. I’m included in the government’s statistics of those who are unemployed. In your opinion, should I be counted among those who are unemployed or am I someone who, when employed, is taking jobs away from Americans? For the record, I immigrated to this country with my family when I was 2 1/2 years old. I’m particularly interested in seeing your reply to my entire post. " Sir/Miss…First of all Im sorry to here about you situation, our economy is in really bad shapeand I know its tough for folks out there…I hope you find a good Job soon! Now…if you came from another nation, you are an Immigrant (although you did come here at a young age)…So for the government stats I think they would consider you to be an Immigrant…but a Citizen. By taking a Job in this nation you are an American…not an Illegal though! Contrary to all the B.S. being said here about ME…and about Immigration reform…the Truth of the matter is that Immigration reform seeks to HELP REAL AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS!!! By protecting Jobs (that Ilegals would take)…by protecting WAGES (that would be lower without it!)…By protecting Governemt services (that many legal Immigratns need!). My "friends here would rather you (and your fellow new americans) be forced into a Dog eat Dog economy where Illegal criminals steal YOUR JOBS…TAKE YOUR SERVICES…USE YOUR HEALTHCARE…LOWER YOUR WAGES…AND DESTROY YOUR CHILDRENS SCHOOLS! Immigration reformers want the Govenment to stop the ILLEGALS…slow the flood of LEGALS…and start to focus on the ~40,000,000 NEW AMericans we have taken in over the last ~30 years!!! …Immigration Reform is all about taking this nation BACK from the Corporate Whores (who want to pimp this nation out)…the Bleeding heart liberals (who dont understand that we cant take in ALL the BILLIONS of people who want to come here)…and the “reconquistas” whos real motive for this flood of Mass Immigration is to destroy this nation for their own selfish desires! …AND to focus our Government TAX money and services on people JUST LIKE YOU!!! (I mean why is should we bring in millions more immigrants when we already have Millions of NEW AEMRICANS right here who cant find work…or take part in the American system??? you may want to check out: [Diversity Alliance for a Sustainable America] [http://www.diversityalliance.org/](http://www.diversityalliance.org/) …Sir/Miss you seem like a nice person, (much better than most of these rude folks Im found here!) I hope you find work, and a great life here in OUR fantastic nation!!! …and I hope youll consider getting involved in this fight, its your nation …and it needsyour help! Pythagoras: {Kulkokon, please answer the following: What would be the purpose of thinking if the possibility that your mind could change was not present? I agree with you! I always try to keep an open mind about things…althoug some things are in fact Wrong…and some things Right…IMHO What proof can you offer that you are right and others are wrong? Clearly there are others that feel as furvently as you with the opposing opinion. To me its simple…You either think that America is a great nation or you dont…If you think that America is great, then its worth protecting, and since getting control of our Borders and Immigration is integral to : 1. having a nation 2. Having the rule of Law 3. stopping the destruction of our Environment 4. keeping our standard of living 5. protecting Americans Jobs 6. Not allowing our Wages to fall to third world levels 7. Keeping our Healthcare system above water. 8. keeping Criminals in Jail, not running free for lack of beds. 9. Stopping the destruction of our Educational system, and having the time and money to give Real America children(of every race and creed) a REAL EDUCATION! 10. Ensuring that the ~40,000,000 New Americans we have imported over the last ~30 years get a place at the REAL American dinner table…and get the chance to be part of the American system…not left out in the cold for lack of funds and services!!! 11. Ending the easy flood of Drugs that flows over our “borders” every single day…these Cheap Drugs are killing our kids!!! 12)PRotecting this nation from Terrorists who seek to Kill our people!! …I could go on and on here but: how can we have a nation with wide open borders? how can we have a “war on drugs”…with wide open borders? how can we fight a “war on terror”…with wide open borders? …etc…etc. And finally, why start a discussion on something that a) wont change other peoples minds and b) your opinion clearly will not change? [COLOR=blue] I dont have to “change” anyones minds…Poll after Poll (over the last ~20 years) has shown that the vast majority of Americans (of all races and creeds) reject ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION (~85% Zogby Poll in Sept.)…moreover a Full (~75% Zogby Poll Sept.) Want to reduce LEGAL Immigration!!! …I just need to join forces with those people and work to force the corporate whores who are keeping the flood gates open to stand down…and let the American people have their nation back! …this has been a long post, so ill go now…BUT I will return with more Links…more information for all of you in ~75% block out there…so that we can stop our great nation from becoming a Third world hell!!! Our Children will curse our names if we dont! peace! Kukulkon BTW…I think that this guys commnets about sum up the guts of the “debate” of the other 25% Block!!! ["Manduck Has anybody noticed how simililar the name “kukulkon” is to another name, of an organization, that also contains three k’s? Coincidence?"] … This is the level of Intelligence Im up against here!!! (Political correctness=stupidity!) WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/75 "2002-10-10T17:26:18Z")
> [@](#): > > You are WRONG sir…Government stats show that about 1/3 of all beds in our jail system have an Immigrant sleeping in them! I guess our jails wouldn’t be so full of immigrants if we stopped rounding them up and putting them there. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/76 "2002-10-10T17:44:43Z")
I’m awake. But after reading this, I think I’ll go back to bed. Nighty-night. ---
**Author:** ![Pythagoras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@Pythagoras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagoras)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/77 "2002-10-10T17:44:44Z")
Which would cost more - sealing up our borders with troops/law enforcement/whatever or allowing immigrants to come in? Nobody has addressed this issue- "Im curious to what degree this assertion is correct: “Illegal Immigrants take jobs that U.S. citizens would not.” That is, are the jobs they are taking really desired by Americans? Are there honestly Americans losing their jobs to illegal immigrants? Or do illegal immigrant’s jobs constitute things that Americans wouldnt be caught dead doing?" ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/78 "2002-10-10T18:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Which would cost more - sealing up our borders with troops/law enforcement/whatever or allowing immigrants to come in? That argument is very powerful with respect to certain kinds of immigration. Immigration from the Far East costs roughly $30,000 per person, and is nearly always done illegally. This creates a black market for immigration firmns which require indentured slavery on the part of the immigrant once he/she arrives in the US. This period of low-wage servitude lasts about two years. If nearly unlimited immigration from the Far East were permitted, it would become much easier and more cost-effective for people to emigrate to the United States. This would diminish the black market immigration firms’ incentives for financing costly emigration, and it would still permit the same levels of wealthier, skilled immigrants. If immigration cost only, say, $5,000 per person and working were legal on the other side, black market firms would be closed out of their own market, and poorest marginal immigrants would not have the money to emigrate. If there weren’t so much red tape for immigrants to obtain working rights in the US, the market for indentured immigrant slavery on pain of deportation would evaporate. So we’d probably end up with fewer poor immigrants and less regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/79 "2002-10-10T18:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kukulkon \* > Well it seems that a few of the kids are still up and out of bed so let me deal with them first…then well have adult time…O.K? > …Tars our “Biologist” friend just keeps looking for issues (thats he wrong on!). > > "CITE[Article about ILLEGALS getting you to pay for their university education]??? You 404 lovin’ File Not Founder! " > > No problem: > [" a Denver Post August 11 front page sob story urging that he get in-state university tuition" > > “Jesus Apodaca is in the U.S. illegally. He and the other Apodacas illegally in the U.S. are entitled to nothing. Some of the illegal young Apodacas have already benefited from taxpayer funded K-12 education.” > > “No doubt they’ll be studying at the expense of Colorado taxpayers soon.”] > > [http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm](http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm) Hmmm… should i trust a website that says… > [@](#): > > Absurdly, current federal policy is to confer American citizenship automatically on any child (with very narrow exceptions, none applicable to illegal aliens) born within the United States. Yes, this website wants to strip you of your right to be a citizen here even if you are born here. > [@](#): > > …Next Tars demands proof that Immigration is destroying the Educational system. Well, DUH i demand proof. You DIDN’T give any!! DUH!!! > [@](#): > > " Or do you have an actual cite and not a “page not found” error " > > No problem senor…(I must say on this though that you sure dont keep up on current events very well do you? I mean this issue has been the subject of much media for over 15 years…and you live in California?(do you ever read?) > > I mean…wake up Mr. California!!! Yes, after living here 6 months, i gain 15 years of media experience. Or maybe it is not as big a deal as you think (at least here in Nor-Cal) > [@](#): > > “A moratorium on immigration to the Federal level would be a request I would push whole-heartedly…Don’t leave California. Stay with me. I promise to get our state back. I remember those days you talk about, and I miss them too…With ‘English Only’ as the language of our land, teachers would more aggressively teach our children to comprehend and success in the stimulation of the mind with math, and develop more freely reading and writing skills…Illegal immigrants are “ILLEGAL”. Breaking our laws in this way, is corrected with deportation immediately” > > Do you even know whos running for state office in California Tars??? > > [http://www.leavingcal.com/edie\_bukewihge.html](http://www.leavingcal.com/edie_bukewihge.html) from the website > [@](#): > > Primary Election - March 5, 2002 > [@](#): > > Losing in the primary was not the end of the process for Edie Bukewihge. She is running for the United States Senate in 2004. She still roars the light of day for Education, and pride of legal citizens across the United States with vigor. Obviously the voters agree with her stance. :smack: (and don’t try to blame the illegals, since they can’t freakin’ vote!) > [@](#): > > "Then, there is immigration. The Clinton administration did little more than watch a literal invasion by illegal immigrants flowing daily across pervious borders. The epicenter of the invasion is California. To the extent that California presages what will eventually happen across the nation, it is time to send a signal: “America, we have a problem!” > > If you live in Idaho, you might ask, “What is the problem? Wasn’t America founded by immigrants? Isn’t immigration a good thing?” The answer is that America has carefully defined a legal way for immigrants to enter the country. The policy is generous and inclusive. Managed immigration is considered a good thing. > > However, the recently conducted census informs us that the number of illegal aliens in the United States is between 10 and 12 million, significantly higher than previously estimated. It is now believed that between 4 and 5 million of them are in California." > > [Conservative Columnists with Political News Commentary, Analysis](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/lindabowles/lb20010417.shtml) I am aware of Linda Bowles blatherings from [Worldnetdaily.com](http://Worldnetdaily.com). I hope you support her condemnation of Unconditional love for your children: [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=26331](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26331) > [@](#): > > his father, Frank Lindh, was before the network cameras speaking to the world, “John loves America. John did not do anything against America.” Then John’s mother fought through her tears to recite these words: “My love for him is unconditional and absolute. I am grateful to God that he has been brought home to his family, me, his home and his country.” > > Unconditional and absolute love? What we are hearing is the rehearsed whining of a modern day American parent seeking to excuse her parental negligence by appealing to a false interpretation of Christian values: the ill-begotten idea that God wants us to forego distinctions between right and wrong and good and evil. It is a wretchedly wrong concept that is undermining our society. [clor=red]Moving on[/color]… > [@](#): > > “The level of immigration is so massive, it’s choking the urban schools…It’s bad enough when you have desperate kids with U.S. backgrounds who require massive resources. In come kids with totally different needs, and it creates crushing burdens on urban schools. > David W. Stewart, author Immigration and Education: The Crisis and the Opportunities” Hmmmmm… Hire spanish speaking teachers? Use taxpayer money effectively? Don’t let moron governor of the term cut education funding? Nah… Lets just demonize the greasers… > [@](#): > > ““Something will have to give,” says political scientist Jay Bernstein, a former Cal State professor. “Either taxes will have to rise or spending priorities must change or many thousands of students will soon find themselves outside the college campuses they’ve long anticipated they would almost automatically attend.” > Washington Times, “Campuses brace for student avalanche,” December 26, 1997.” Maybe the lazy bum kids should study. If they are too stupid to get into college, Fuck 'em. It is not my problem that they are lazy and stupid. > [@](#): > > "IMMIGRANTS ARE OVERWHELMING SCHOOL SYSTEMS > Schools are already overcrowded; there are six million more children in school now than 10 years ago. By 2002, the school population will grow from 49 million to 55 million–because of immigration. Yes, there is zero population growth except for immigration. except there isn’t [http://fox.rollins.edu/~jsiry/USpop90s.html](http://fox.rollins.edu/~jsiry/USpop90s.html) Seems to be an extra 1.6 million people that shouldn’t exist. Must be more of my imagination (probably the same people who ride the bus that don’t exist) > [@](#): > > Without school-age immigrants (about 250,000 a year) and the children of immigrants (about 725,000 a year), school enrollment would not be rising at all. For example, in Miami in 1995, foreign students streamed into the public school system at a rate of 120 a day. In 1995, New York City had to create a special high school in Queens just for the children of immigrants. In San Francisco, where one in every three public school student is in a “limited English” program, a separate Newcomer High School has been created for immigrants. Nationwide, the number of students with limited English has doubled to 3.5 million, according to the U.S. Department of Education." > > [http://www.fairus.org/html/04126611.htm](http://www.fairus.org/html/04126611.htm) > > Now that we cleared all that up for you…Tars. Ha! You are a funny guy!! > [@](#): > > Lets move on to your next fantastic quote: > "Obviously, Gaylord Nelson is the stupidest person on the planet. He needs to put down the peace pipe and look outside his window and see all the open space. " > > Yea…ahhh…“obviuously”!!! I guess when you get your PHD in Science…Become a Senator…start your own Enviromental organisation…and awarded the title of "the most important American Enviromentalist since John you’ll be almost as smart as he is…ehhh Tars??? Most important environmentalist since John? John from the bible? Wow! maybe i should start my own enviromental organization, it will clean up the trash cluttering message boards… > [@](#): > > BTW…I guess ALL of the President’s Commission on Population Growth and America’s Future urged Congress to act with alacrity to stabilize the population of 200 million. They must also be “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet”??? Yes, since they are not keeping up with technology and biotechnology that is increaing the carrying capacity of the planet. > [@](#): > > BTWW…I guess that Ecologists such as Paul and Anne Ehrlich of Stanford University peg 150 million as the maximum level consonant with long-term habitat preservation." They must also…ALSO…be obviously the the stupidest person on the planet"?..Right Mr. “”"“Biologist”"""?? Well, your people can’t even pick a constant number. I delcare 400,000,000 will be fine for this country. No, wait, 500,000,000!No, wait, 65,000!!! The reali ideal population is Zero, but that would exclude natural citizens like you (color=red]YOU GOT PROOF YOU ARE LEGAL, BUDDY???[/color]) > [@](#): > > …here are some more Scientists and leaders working to wake up people like you in California (i know they have a ton of work to do!)…ALL of these people are also “obviously the the stupidest person on the planet” : > > [http://www.limitstogrowth.org/](http://www.limitstogrowth.org/) > > [http://ccir.net/](http://ccir.net/) > > [http://www.susps.org/](http://www.susps.org/) Yes, California, full of wackyness. This moring on the bus i had to listen to some guy going on about Bush being the Antichrist because he was doing all these supercomplicated secret plans. But i guess he is just trying to “Wake up, California!!” > [@](#): > > IMHO…you should get informed on this subject before you return to “debate”…I am shocked by your lack of knowledge on this issue…I mean you live in California for gods sake, its been a big issue there for about 25 years 25 years? I’ve not even been alive that long. :Wally: > [@](#): > > Sir…moreover Im sad to see a “”“Biologist” who cant seem to understand that: > > " the ability of an ecosystem to support a given number of humans( or any organism for that matter) IS NOT limited simply by the “open space” in that system…Mr. Biologist…there are a huge host of factors that define the carrying capacity…and any real scientists would know that…Mr. “”“Biologist”"""! If you want to get into a debate on carrying capacity, revive one of the old threads or start a new one. needless to say, 275 million is no where near the limit of this country, especially with technology increasing food yeild, new techniques of water treatment (both in development and current), and most of the urban areas having large sections of unused buildings. > [@](#): > > When you get informed, you can run with the big dogs…until then go to bed! 🙂 Hmmmm… a chihuahua telling me that i can’t run with the big dogs. Yo quiero Taco Bell, eh? No, wait, that is ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT food!!! > [@](#): > > First of all: this persons story is exactly what Im talking about people…WHY are we allowing millions of new workers to flood this nation when we already have Millions of NEW Americans rigth here who cant find good JOBS?? Yes, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who just crossed the board have degrees in physics, computer science, geology, have graduated from law school, and have psychology masters, and are stealing jobs. Either that, or they are working in factories glueing carpet fibers and doing other jobs americans wouldn’t do. If you think that America is great, then its worth protecting, and since getting control of our Borders and Immigration is integral to : 1. having a nation 2. Having the rule of Law 3. stopping the destruction of our Environment [/quote] BZZZTT!!! Wrong, Logging has nothing to do with immigration. Oil drilling has nothing to do with immigration. Corruption of government officials and corporate land raping ahve nothing to do with immigrantion. but keep living in your fantasy world. > [@](#): > > 1. keeping our standard of living > 2. protecting Americans Jobs > **6) Not allowing our Wages to fall to third world levels** The logic is mind boggeling. Spock weeps. > [@](#): > > 1. Keeping our Healthcare system above water. Healthcare is already ruined. > [@](#): > > 1. keeping Criminals in Jail, not running free for lack of beds. Build more prisons. set up social programs that give incentives to doing something with your life and not resorting to crime. (or kill all them crime doing immigrants!!! All they do is breed and rape!!) > [@](#): > > 1. Stopping the destruction of our Educational system, and having the time and money to give Real America children(of every race and creed) a REAL EDUCATION! Could be fixed if there were competent people in the Dept of Education. Which is again not the immigrants fault, as they don’t appoint officials (except in your sick twisted world) > [@](#): > > 1. Ensuring that the ~40,000,000 New Americans we have imported over the last ~30 years get a place at the REAL American dinner table…and get the chance to be part of the American system…not left out in the cold for lack of funds and services!!! > 2. Ending the easy flood of Drugs that flows over our “borders” every single day…these Cheap Drugs are killing our kids!!! > 12)PRotecting this nation from Terrorists who seek to Kill our people!! Ah, so if we don’t advocate sweeping immigration reform, we are really Taliban agents now? > [@](#): > > … This is the level of Intelligence Im up against here!!! (Political correctness=stupidity!) Yes, way above your head. It is too bad that Universities are letting anyone in nowadays with money a chance to use the computers… Too bad there wasn’t enough illegals to keep you out of school… > [@](#): > > WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! \*\* Wake up, little Suzie, Wake up! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396/80 "2002-10-10T18:54:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kukulkon \* > **So prove that has something to do with immigration. Prove there’s a negative impact here. Mexico has far less immigration and a far higher unemployment rate, doesn’t it?"** Rick…is real simple Sir We have ~20,000,000 who cant get JOBS…and…~15,000,000 ILLEGALS WHO HAVE JOBS IN THE USA…got it? [/QUOTE] What you don’t understand is that adding people to a country does not necessarily reduce the number of jobs available. Let me try to explain this as simply as possible, using an example. There are 280 million people in the United States. There are 85 million people in Germany. Therefore, there are more people looking for jobs in the USA, right? So why is the unemployment rate higher in Germany? If having more people means more unemployment, how is it possible that so many more people in the USA have jobs? If you add 1 millionm people to the United States, you add not only the DEMAND for jobs, but also the SUPPLY of jobs, because more people = more demand for products and services = more jobs. If that WASN’T true, then the unemployment rate in the Unied States would be at least 98%. But it isn’t, it’s more like 7%, which suggests that _jobs are created when the population increases._ You cannot get around that simple fact, though of course, you didn’t respond to it. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*I’m sorry, but where is your evidence that high immigration results in high taxes? > > RICK…is real easy dude, Who do you think PAYS for ALL THE SERVICES IMMIGRANTS NEED? The immigrants, dummy. They pay taxes, ya know. Yes, immigrants pay taxes, roughly proportional to their income, just like everyone else. And you’ve provided no EVIDENCE. You made the claim, so it’s your job to back it up. Claiming “immigrants cost the taxpayer money!” isn’t evidence. Back it up with real facts. And explain how immigrants don’t pay tax while you’re at it. > [@](#): > > Yes, there’s just so much secession talk going around. " > like some dude in CANADA would even know what kinda talk is going around in CALIFORNIA or TEXAS…Right? Yes, I do know what’s going on. Aren’t you a bit embarassed a Canadian knows more about your country than you do? Look, it doesn’t matter if I’m Canadian, Belgian, American, Chinese or Martian. What I am saying is true. There is NO serious secession movement in the United States. There is no secessionist party with any significant support or any hope of ever winning an election. The support for secession from the Union is not in double digits in any state. There is nothing there. QUOTE]BTW…Rick…been to Quebec any time in the last 10 or 20 years my friend…cause I have, and the “talks” sure going around!!! [/QUOTE] And guess who supports secession in Quebec, bonehead? The people who have been there for FOUR HUNDRED YEARS. It’s the immigrants in Quebec that oppose secession. In fact, the separatists in Quebec DESPISE immigrants because they’re too loyal to Canada for the separatists’ liking. > [@](#): > > Rick…if you get the chance please consider reading at the top of this page the words of Doctor Gaylord…the Founder of EARTHDAY And this makes “Dr. Gaylord” an expert in immigration how, exactly? > [@](#): > > "Interview with Earth Day Founder Gaylord Nelson He named population as the #1 environmental problem, then went on to say, “But in this country, it’s phony to say ‘I’m for the environment but not for limiting immigration.’ It’s just a fact that we can’t take all the people who want to come here.” So what are Dr. Gaylord’s facts? Who has suggested the USA take in every single person who wants to come? > [@](#): > > No matter what you do with conservation, it won’t be enough. There’s too much demand. Then we’d dead, and I’m right; immigration’s irrelevant. If conservation literally cannot work, the environment is doomed no matter what, since logically we will use up every possible resource. > [@](#): > > Ecologists such as Paul and Anne Ehrlich Ehrlich is a discredited crank. His predictions have all turned out to be wrong; you may as well cite Big Bird as a reliable source. Ehrlich actually said the following things would happen: - That the world population would top out at 3.5 billion (wrong) - England would cease to exist by the year 2000 (wrong) - The world could not produce enough food to sustain the human population (wrong) - The long term price of most resources would increase (wrong) - Worldwide famines and starvation of billions by 1990 (wrong) - 65 million Americans dead of famine by 1990 (wrong) - The U.S. would be destroyed by a nuclear attack before 2000 (wrong) - Food riots in the USA resulting in dissolution of government (wrong) Ehrlich’s a laughable fool who’s made millions of dollars fooling bigger fools than himself by selling hysteria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-true-cost-of-mass-immigration/131396.md?page=5)