# What's to prevent a traitor/spy from becoming President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2000, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567 "2000-12-28T21:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/21 "2000-12-29T03:10:43Z")
If a traitor/spy/sneak happens to get elected, we can rely on him to leave suspicious gaps in audio tapes and botch the simplest break-ins. We’ve weeded out one already this way. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/22 "2000-12-29T03:20:02Z")
> [@](#): > > For crying out loud, being head of the CIA (and I don’t think he was even that) does not currently qualify you as being a traitor. George H.W. Bush was director of the CIA in 1976-77. As for the OP: Stoidela seems to be talking about some sort of Deep-Cover Foreign Agent scenario, and not about someone getting elected and then making foreign policy decisions other people disagree with. I would think a major candidate for President who’d spent a few years in a North Korean prison camp, or who had no verifiable past history before the age of twelve, would have a fair bit of trouble getting that past the media, and something like that would probably be something of a political liability, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/23 "2000-12-29T03:28:15Z")
**ME** , if some idiots with photocopiers can make fake green cards and SSNs for immigrants, I would not put it past a truly international terrorist group (PLO, anyone?) to create out of whole cloth an identity for a mole. Especially a mole as important as this one. Nobody but the President and his contacts (appointees?) would ever have to know. Until, that is, an invasion is staged and El Presidente gladly hands over power to an enemy we never saw coming. By then it will be too late, unless the masses can physically defend themselves and organize to retake the nation. ---
**Author:** ![MattTheCroc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MattTheCroc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MattTheCroc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/24 "2000-12-29T05:59:10Z")
> [@](#): > > This means citizenship, residency, and no loss of civil rights(ie, no felonies). I thought you had to be American-born, too. So conceivably I could rock on over to the US, get citizenship, and live there until I’m old enough, then run for presidency? If I had an Australian criminal record would that apply? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/25 "2000-12-29T06:10:32Z")
MattTheCroc, sorry, but no. [Article II, Section 1](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/) of the US Constitution: > [@](#): > > No Person except a **natural born** Citizen … shall be eligible to the Office of President; ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/26 "2000-12-29T08:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > For crying out loud, being head of the CIA (and I don’t think he was even that) does not currently qualify you as being a traitor. Chill, Derleth. I said “the spy part”, not the traitor part. (Although it’s good you qualified your statement with “currently”. You never know what the Republicans will make a crime next… Boutros-Boutros Ghali, you are accused of being Secretary General of the UN. How do you plead?) But when someone mentions spy and president in the same sentence, for some reason I automatically thought of ol’ Smilin’ George. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/27 "2000-12-29T13:00:07Z")
Richard Nixon deliberately sabotaged the Paris Peace talks with the N. Vietnam/Viet Cong by secretly advising Thieu that if he held on till the election was over, Nixon would increase military committment to Viet Nam. Thus the war continued another five years. Treason in my book. how about yours? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/28 "2000-12-29T15:31:48Z")
President Clinton’s sale of missle technology to China was treason. If he had been anyone but the president, he would have gone to the electric chair for this. God I’m glad that he and his cronies are going to be out of there in a month! ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/29 "2000-12-29T15:35:09Z")
Soory about that last sentence. I guess I joined the ping-pong match. But the sale of advanced weapons technology to a hostile nation with the worst human rights record in modern history is wholesale treason in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/30 "2000-12-29T16:04:23Z")
Here’s a thread asking a similar question from a while back: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39784](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39784) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/31 "2000-12-29T16:49:33Z")
[ping pong] > [@](#): > > But the sale of advanced weapons technology to a hostile nation with the worst human rights record in modern history is wholesale treason in my book. Yeah, I can’t stand that rat bastard Ollie North either. 🙂 [/ping pong] But to get back to the OP, I think the point is that Congress can impeach the president for pretty much anything it wants. I don’t know if something weak like wearing bad ties would count as a high crime or misdemeanor, but since the constitution pretty clearly gives the power of impeachment to Congress, I don’t think there’s anything short of public opinion to stop 'em. As for what would happen if someone gets sworn in as president, and it later becomes clear that he’s constitutionally ineligible due to citizenship or age, your guess is as good as mine. My guess is that if he’s not eligible to be president in the first place, there’s no president to remove, and CNN starts organizing the swearing-in of the vice president. Just a guess, though. BTW, **JRDelirious** , that was a nice point about the Cabinet being able to declare the President unfit. Don’t have my copy of the constitution handy, but IIRC the context of that amendment was disability/illness, not being found out to be a butthead. Still, if public sentiment was strong enough, I think there’s a good argument to be made that they could do it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/32 "2000-12-29T17:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Derleth wrote:_ > Nobody but the President and his contacts (appointees?) would ever have to know. Until, that is, an invasion is staged and El Presidente gladly hands over power to an enemy we never saw coming. By then it will be too late, unless the masses can physically defend themselves and organize to retake the nation. First of all I don’t think there is a field commander in existence who would let an invasion force pass him by unmolested even if the president did phone and say, “It’s ok George, they’re just coming by to visit so leave them be.” IIRC our armed forces swear to uphold the OCnstitution of the United States…not the President. Second, the President can’t ‘hand over’ power to anyone. The closest he can come to this is resigining or dying giving power to the VP. Third, the masses most certainly can defend themselves. We are one well armed country right down to the individual Joe citizen. Every kid and his Uncle would be out shooting enemy soldiers. A conventional land invasion of the US would be nearly impossible to pull of successfully even if our military somehow folded and let them on our land in the first place. Finally, exactly how could the President be a traitor? Does he tell his Secret Service contingent to wait while he takes a jog by the river and never mind the briefcase he’d be carrying? Does he ask the guy carrying the ‘football’ if he can peek at the codes inside? Does he ask Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory to forward the blueprints nuclear missile XX? The President may be the head of the country but frankly there are probably better places to insert a spy into (head of CIA would be good, Secretary of Defense, etc.). The Pres. is surrounded almost constantly by staff and SS and has little opportunity to be giving info covertly to other countries. He can sway foreign policy but we do have checks and balances in this country. People call Clinton a traitor for selling missiles to China but I don’t believe he could have done this without a nod to go ahead from congress which makes them culpable as well. Also, Congress can impeach the President anytime they want to. Afterall, they went after Clinton for no more reason than getting a hummer (not for treason for selling missiles to China which would seem more appropriate). ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/33 "2000-12-29T17:47:49Z")
I can see it now: Clinton as an alleged spy: :: Shaking finger :: “I - did NOT - spy - on - America - for - that - country!” “Define ‘spy.’” “Yes, I was enlisted as a spy for China, but I never actually spied for them.” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/34 "2000-12-29T17:51:36Z")
Jeff\_42: > [@](#): > > IIRC our armed forces swear to uphold the OCnstitution of the United States…not the President. And who does the constitution say gets to order the military around? > [@](#): > > Third, the masses most certainly can defend themselves. We are one well armed country right down to the individual Joe citizen. Every kid and his Uncle would be out shooting enemy soldiers. A conventional land invasion of the US would be nearly impossible to pull of successfully even if our military somehow folded and let them on our land in the first place. :rolleyes: Hunting rifles versus the Red Army? Puh-leez. Start practicing your Russian. > [@](#): > > Finally, exactly how could the President be a traitor? Umm, how 'bout giving Castro the keys to the nukes? Secretly selling Alaska to the Canadians? Or anything else Congress considers to be treason, and therefore impeachable? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/35 "2000-12-29T18:00:27Z")
[hijack] What _was_ the episode of _The West Wing_ this week? I missed it cos I thought it was a rerun, but I can’t remember any previous episodes that might inspire such a thread. Little help? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/36 "2000-12-29T18:07:12Z")
> [@](#): > > IIRC our armed forces swear to uphold the OCnstitution of the United States…not the President. > > > [@](#): > > > > And who does the constitution say gets to order the military around? Obviously the President is Commander in Chief but a Commander _cannot_ give an illegal order and expect it to be obeyed. It may take some brass balls on the part of the person bucking the order but in some cases (look up the Nuremberg War Trials) such bucking of authority is _expected_. Any General or Admiral who let a foreign army on our soil because the President told them to would be shot or imprisoned after the war (assuming we won). > [@](#): > > Hunting rifles versus the Red Army? Puh-leez. Start practicing your Russian. Not sure what rock you’ve been living under but American citizens are armed with a helluva lot more than hunting rifles. Also, tell the Afgans or Viet Cong about the pointlessness of standing up to the big bad US or Russia. > [@](#): > > Finally, exactly how could the President be a traitor? > > > [@](#): > > > > Umm, how 'bout giving Castro the keys to the nukes? Secretly selling Alaska to the Canadians? Or anything else Congress considers to be treason, and therefore impeachable? None of the things you listed could be done by the President. I suppose he could quitely talk to the Canadians and sell Alaska but if they’d buy that then I have some beach front property to sell them in Kansas as well. The keys to the nukes are in the ‘football’ handcuffed to a guy who follows the President around and I doubt he’d just hand over the briefcase cuz the President asked. The point here is that the President could certainly try and pull something that we’d consdier treason but he’d be caught in a second thus he wouldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/37 "2000-12-29T18:42:38Z")
Jeff\_42 (my, we’re chatting a lot today! :)) > [@](#): > > Obviously the President is Commander in Chief but a Commander cannot give an illegal order and expect it to be obeyed. Sure, but where’s the illegality here? Is there something specific that says the president can’t let foreign soldiers into the country? It’d be a gutsy general indeed who stands up and says “I’m sorry, Mr. President, but I cannot follow that order until the State Department issues the proper visas.” > [@](#): > > Not sure what rock you’ve been living under but American citizens are armed with a helluva lot more than hunting rifles. Glad to hear the NRA’s been stockpiling anti-tank missiles and stealth bombers. The country is now safe from the Manchurian Candidate! 🙂 > [@](#): > > The point here is that the President could certainly try and pull something that we’d consdier treason but he’d be caught in a second thus he wouldn’t do it. I disagree that the prez is incapable of committing treason, or that he’d be caught instantly. How hard is it, really, to fax a copy of our troop deployments to Saddam Hussein? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/38 "2000-12-29T21:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree that the prez is incapable of committing treason, or that he’d be caught instantly. How hard is it, really, to fax a copy of our troop deployments to Saddam Hussein? From the White House? Without leaving a record? Probably pretty hard. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/39 "2000-12-29T22:02:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* \*\* > [@](#): > > From the White House? Without leaving a record? Probably pretty hard. \*\* Well they’d have a hard time impeaching him if he didn’t get caught! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2000, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567/40 "2000-12-30T01:20:59Z")
This thread has run _way_ too far afield. The General Questions answer to your questions are: There is no prohibition on a person previously convicted of treason from becoming president, except for the inconvenient fact that s/he may have received the death penalty. We’ve already had a spy as President, but he was a spy for the Good Guys[sup]TM[/sup], so it’s OK. As for a spy for the Bad Guys, the only “prohibition” is the vigilance of the people, the press and his/her opponents to bring the Bad Guy’s acts to the light of day. Once in office, the normal checks and balances would apply, including Congress, the Supreme Court and (in _very_ extreme circumstances) the prohibition on the military against following illegal orders. Future posters, please either refute one of these points or confirm them or add to them. Future off-topic posts will be deleted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-to-prevent-a-traitor-spy-from-becoming-president/47567.md?page=1)