# What's too "Loony Left" for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 11, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503 "2022-08-11T18:54:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/161 "2022-08-14T15:13:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m no expert on employment contract law, I don’t know if such a contract would be valid or how the additional protection I propose would be applied in that case. Right, you said _“Stonger laws that would mean no “at will” employment and an increased duty of care and obligations for the employer in similar situations. It occurs to me that those suggestions themselves will be seen as “loony left” by many and certainly by the US political right. Guilty as charged I suppose.”_ And I’m saying that (a) that _is_, in fact, how I see your suggestions, and so (b) I’m fine with offering someone at-will employment, and having them reply “yeah, that sounds fair; I accept.” But if they instead reply “no, you need to include a severance agreement,” then I’m happy to hash out the details with them before hiring them, or tell them I guess I’m hiring someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/162 "2022-08-14T15:14:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The problem is, what their “kids” are doing and what our “kids” are doing are not the same thing Would you accept that both right and left organisations or institutions are, or have sought to ban certain books? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/163 "2022-08-14T15:19:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And I’m saying that (a) that _is_, in fact, how I see your suggestions, and so (b) I’m fine with offering someone at-will employment, and having them reply “yeah, that sounds fair; I accept.” And I have already said that I think an “at will” contract should not be allowed in any circumstances. I am fundamentally against them. Indeed they are not allowed in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/164 "2022-08-14T15:22:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Lovely. But that’s not the world we live in. We live in a world where a bad tweet can start to affect your employer’s business. Where they will be boycotted. Where they will get bad reviews on social media. > > As I said in my earlier post to @octopus , what is the rational response for the employer as they see their business going under, because of the bad tweet by an employee? In this world, where Twitter is part of the world? > > Twitter is a cesspool. Anyone who uses it for their personal life is stepping into the cesspool. ⁢ But the whole topic of discussion here is that first paragraph. You’re describing exactly what people against cancel culture say should be changed. Even I was saying that a single tweet without waiting for a response should not have been enough for that reaction. That said, there were other possible responses. There is “we will be putting her on leave until we get to the bottom of this.” There is arguing what I did, that you think it is satire. Still, getting scared and firing her makes sense, as long as they were willing (as they were) to hire her back if things got settled. The objection in that situation is to the way people overreacted to someone making a joke. without waiting for their response. That’s an actual issue we need to learn from. What it is not, however, is an indictment of “cancel culture” as a whole. Heck, the fact that such examples will be used to try and say that no one should ever be “cancelled” is exactly why we need to be careful. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/165 "2022-08-14T15:34:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Would you accept that both right and left organisations or institutions are, or have sought to ban certain books? Have both requested and funded misleading campaigns to ask voters to defund libraries if they don’t comply with a requested ban? [https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/3592899-michigan-public-library-defunded-over-inclusion-of-lgbtq-materials/](https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/3592899-michigan-public-library-defunded-over-inclusion-of-lgbtq-materials/) Incidentally, AFAIK there has been a lot of money coming to that library from groups that think that was bad, usually liberals and groups that do not demand that specific conservative books must be banned before money is sent. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/166 "2022-08-14T15:38:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The objection in that situation is to the way people overreacted to someone making a joke. without waiting for their response. That’s an actual issue we need to learn from. What it is not, however, is an indictment of “cancel culture” as a whole. This is all perfectly fair and I should say that I’m not a fan of the term “cancel culture” and I try not to wave it around as a pejorative term. Like many neologisms I’m not sure it helps the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/167 "2022-08-14T15:43:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Have both requested and funded misleading campaigns to ask voters to defund libraries if they don’t comply with a requested ban? When asking that question I didn’t have specific country in mind. I’m sure there are varying applications of the tactic and I have no doubt that the USA right are more likely to be censorious. But history shows us that no political side is immune from the temptation of flexing their power in that way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/168 "2022-08-14T15:48:17Z")
Just saying, while this board has members all over the world, most posters (and almost all examples talked about in this thread) are in the US. It is good to keep history in mind, but the problem you have here is to ignore that history is telling us that the authoritarians of today in the US (mostly Republican politicians) are the ones who have not learned their lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/169 "2022-08-14T16:08:18Z")
Well being UK based I can’t help but have a slightly different perspective and set of concerns and experiences. Though I’d say we all benefit from expanding our thinking beyond our borders now and again. We can’t always know what might be the next issue nor where that’ll come from. And I apologise but I can’t quite parse the whole of your last paragraph but I agree with your last sentence regarding the Republican authoritarianism here and now in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/170 "2022-08-14T16:18:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And I apologise but I can’t quite parse the whole of your last paragraph but I agree with your last sentence regarding the Republican authoritarianism here and now in the USA. Context, while it is true that there are posters from all over the world, the issues discussed in this thread are taking place in the US. It is confusing to drop overton windows that are not really part of an ongoing discussion of problems in an American house. ( Unlike the UK, Double-hung windows are prevalent in homes in the US 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/171 "2022-08-14T16:59:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > To a degree, yes. Should an employer have a duty of care to treat an employee fairly? yes. But it’s not the employer who’s being unfair to the worker. Why should they be forced to bare the cost? What’s the cut off where they’re allowed to act to protect their own interests? Do they have to wait to show that they’ve taken a certain amount of financial damage? Is there a process where the employer, having shown that they’ve taken enough damage to fire the problematic worker, can be made whole for the damage they took up to that point? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There’s no perfect solution but let’s at least make changes where we can and perhaps remove a degree of power from the social media mobs. Showing them that they can’t always extract the revenge they want would be a good thing in my opinion. Sure, there’s no perfect solution. Any approach is going to have benefits and drawbacks. Do the benefits of enacting these sorts of protections outweigh the drawbacks? Considering that the go-to case for this issue was from nine years ago - and that she was subsequently rehired for exactly the same job - maybe indicates that this isn’t really a significant problem. “Because of cancel culture, a wealthy woman was forced to work at a slightly less highly paid job for a couple years,” doesn’t really seem like the sort of issue that requires legislation to address. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/172 "2022-08-14T17:02:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > As an example you moderate a forum and have some influence over discourse and you also have the ability to post and express your own opinions. You can use said influence to promote pro liberty stances when such stances are being actively debated. Even when acting with that sort of integrity may cause a loss of popularity. That’s why I mentioned it’s not a singular event and that it’s a process. Am I not doing just that? I support Justine Sacco’s right to make tone deaf jokes on line. I support everyone who reads her jokes to voice their opinion of her jokes. And I support her employer’s right to make decisions about who they employ in their business. Maximal liberty all around! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/173 "2022-08-14T17:04:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I support Justine Sacco’s right to make tone deaf jokes on line. I support everyone who reads her jokes to voice their opinion of her jokes. And I support her employer’s right to make decisions about who they employ in their business. > > Maximal liberty all around! …I’m in 100% agreement with this. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/174 "2022-08-14T17:05:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But it’s not the employer who’s being unfair to the worker If the employee is being fired for a minor issue then yes, the employer is being unfair to them. > [@Miller](#): > > “Because of cancel culture, a wealthy woman was forced to work at a slightly less highly paid job for a couple years,” doesn’t really seem like the sort of issue that requires legislation to address. That isn’t a fair representation of what she went through. Sometimes the process is the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/175 "2022-08-14T17:07:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If the employee is being fired for a minor issue then yes, the employer is being unfair to them. And if the employee says, _no, that’s fair,_ your opinion would be — unchanged? Irrelevant? What? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/176 "2022-08-14T17:19:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If the employee is being fired for a minor issue then yes, the employer is being unfair to them. Is “minor issue” based on the scope of the protest, or the severity of the initiating act? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That isn’t a fair representation of what she went through. Sometimes the process is the punishment. It’s a completely fair representation of her employment during the ordeal. You chose to focus on the employment aspect of the situation in your responses, so that’s what I’ve been talking about. If you want to bring in the social effects of being an internet pariah, fine, but that’s not something that’s going to be fixed by making it harder to fire her. You’re going to need a different solution to fix that problem. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/177 "2022-08-14T17:21:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re going to need a different solution to fix that problem. Reparations! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/178 "2022-08-14T17:31:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And if the employee says, _no, that’s fair,_ your opinion would be — unchanged? Irrelevant? What? What exactly is the employee saying is “fair”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/179 "2022-08-14T17:37:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What exactly is the employee saying is “fair”? What you said was “unfair”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503/180 "2022-08-14T17:39:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is “minor issue” based on the scope of the protest, or the severity of the initiating act? The severity of the initiating act. What has the person actua > [@Miller](#): > > It’s a completely fair representation of her employment during the ordeal It is a description of her change of employment status. _How_ an employee is treated during such changes has always been of interest to tribunals. i.e. was someone forced out? was their continued employment made impossible etc. Were they fairly treated? > [@Miller](#): > > If you want to bring in the social effects of being an internet pariah, fine, but that’s not something that’s going to be fixed by making it harder to fire her. You’re going to need a different solution to fix that problem. I’m repeating myself now but I said right at the start that stronger employee protections would not solve all the problems but they might cushion the blow somewhat and force employers to show that they are treating their staff fairly. If not, they are risk being sanctioned at a tribunal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-too-loony-left-for-you/969503.md?page=10)