# What's up at Ground Zero? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398 "2008-09-06T22:11:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/21 "2008-09-07T13:31:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, they DID have some problems with the Cybermen/Dalek invasion, so it’s understandable… _kisses **jayjay** _ Thanks, you made a shitty Sunday moning 100 times better! Keep up the wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey voodoo. 😃 I understand - after reading the responses here - why Ground Zero isn’t up and running properly yet. But damn, it kills me that people couldn’t get along enough to hurry the design of the thing so it could at least be further along now than it is. As mentioned upthread, this project was supposed to show how great America is, and we won’t take it lying down, and…basically a big “Fuck you! You still didn’t win” to terrorism. Instead, it feels more like a “Nyah nyah! If you hit me I’m telling my mommy!” Rather less impact, dontcha think? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/22 "2008-09-07T13:34:36Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Speaking as someone who has lived in and around NYC since I was a kid, there is no fucking way I would ever work in a skyscraper at that location. Ever. > > The only people I have met that are gung-ho about that tower and willing to occupy it weren’t here that day. I work about 2 blocks from the WTC, having recently moved from Michigan. When you walk by the giant hole in the ground, it’s all too easy to imagine a building having been there. The horror of that day becomes very immediate. I look around and realize probably at least half the people I’m surrounded by remember that time, and perhaps were even present when it happened. How they can get back to business as usual after something like that is beyond me. There are no words. To the OP, it takes a very long time to plan and construct a building of those dimensions in the heart of a metropolitan area. You really can’t imagine the scale of the wreckage unless you see it for yourself. It will take a very long time to clean up. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/23 "2008-09-08T01:22:35Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I work about 2 blocks from the WTC, having recently moved from Michigan. When you walk by the giant hole in the ground, it’s all too easy to imagine a building having been there. The horror of that day becomes very immediate. I look around and realize probably at least half the people I’m surrounded by remember that time, and perhaps were even present when it happened. How they can get back to business as usual after something like that is beyond me. There are no words. > > To the OP, it takes a very long time to plan and construct a building of those dimensions in the heart of a metropolitan area. You really can’t imagine the scale of the wreckage unless you see it for yourself. It will take a very long time to clean up. I second that. I visited NYC for the first time last month, and the sheer size of the gap is amazing. Manhattan is _vertical_ everywhere, and then you just have this vast area with nothing above ground level. I just found myself staring into the gap, and I never saw it as it used to be. For local people it must be orders of magnitude more jarring. FWIW, [here](http://i36.tinypic.com/2uzecl3.jpg) is what the site looked like on August 15. (panorama, hence weird blank areas of picture!) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/24 "2008-09-08T14:17:42Z")
I work across the street from Ground Zero. I see it out my office window every day and have for the past four years. Its progress is _remarkably_ slow. Building skyscrapers in NYC is actually a very swift process. Just north of where I sit, Goldman Sachs has been building a tower to house a new training facility. It looks to be at least fifty floors. I cannot believe how much progress has been made in the past year or so. I would look out my north-facing window, and every few days, another floor would appear. All of the girders have been laid, and I suspect soon the glass will be installed. Their efficiency is spectacular. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/25 "2008-09-08T15:42:04Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I work about 2 blocks from the WTC, having recently moved from Michigan. When you walk by the giant hole in the ground, it’s all too easy to imagine a building having been there. The horror of that day becomes very immediate. I look around and realize probably at least half the people I’m surrounded by remember that time, and perhaps were even present when it happened. How they can get back to business as usual after something like that is beyond me. There are no words. I had a similar experience immediately after moving to NYC almost exactly two years ago. My first job interview was at a law firm located near enough to the former WTC site that I had to walk by it. I had just moved to NYC the day prior, and was unused to the scale of everything anyway, but I was definitely staggered by just how _huge_ the thing was. At any rate, I’m with **LurkerInNJ** in regard to my desire to ever work in whatever building they end up erecting in that spot (or even spend time in that area, really, although it isn’t as if there’s any reason to go there if one doesn’t work there). Heck, I work in a building in midtown that’s about the same size as all of the other buildings in midtown, and I’m still a little apprehensive about the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/26 "2008-09-08T16:06:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem is not “America.” Actually, the problems look a whole lot like “America” to me. Legal fights over who owns what. Legal fights over who owes who what. Legal fights over the design. Bitching that the memorial isn’t big enough, or doesn’t list the people the right way, or doesn’t include everyone, or includes too many people, or doesn’t portray enough emotion. Bitching about the tower design, too big, too small, too ugly. Half the politicians in the state looking to hitch their wagon to the Freedom Tower, and crow about their personal involvement in it, and the inevitable infighting over that. Families wanting the gov’t to sift through 100,000 tons of concrete and steel to find chips of bone to bury. 50,000 people are sticking their noses in to ensure it’s done “right” and the entire process is paralyzed for years. That’s America! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/27 "2008-09-08T16:52:11Z")
Oh, yeah. Once it starts going up, it’ll build like a masturbating mother fuck. Grow four stories in a _day_. Hard part is getting it started. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/28 "2008-09-08T17:18:35Z")
I work in the construction industry (technically landscape construction but we do commercial work for highrise green roofs, upper floor gardens and other stuff) and it’s not at all unusual to get a set of plans for a building in Chicago not due to be constructed for several years. And, by the time we see the plans, the building was probably proposed a couple years ago and it took this long to get to the point where they’re seriously requesting bids. Add to that the clean-up effort, politics, etc and I’m not at all surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/29 "2008-09-08T17:45:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Oh, yeah. Once it starts going up, it’ll build like a masturbating mother fuck. Grow four stories in a _day_. > > Hard part is getting it started. Exactly. The bidding process on a non-political building can take years (especially if the winners of the bid decide not to take the job because the owners are nutcases that they can’t work for, back to the drawing board, etc. etc.) I can’t even imagine the bidding process with heavy politics involved. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/30 "2008-09-09T11:56:23Z")
Do most people still agree that another building full of business should be built on the site ? I certainly dont envy the people who have to make a decision about what should be there now. However, now that a good deal of time has passed, is the near universal view that the US should send a great big f.u. to AQ and replace what was essentialy Americas biggest monument to capitalism, with another verison of the same thing, still the prevailing mindset ? Aside: would the new tower be an even greater prize for a terrorist to attack ? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/31 "2008-09-09T16:37:09Z")
> [@sinical\_brit](#): > > However, now that a good deal of time has passed, is the near universal view that the US should send a great big f.u. to AQ and replace what was essentialy Americas biggest monument to capitalism, with another verison of the same thing, still the prevailing mindset ? > > Aside: would the new tower be an even greater prize for a terrorist to attack ? Not in my house it isn’t, and the general consensus of every personal conversation I have had where the subject came up is that the tower will be a great big target. Besides the safety factor, I personally feel that building a tower that will be occupied is disrespectful. Thousands of people died on that site. No matter how much it gets “cleaned up”, it’s still a graveyard. Trying to turn it into a monument to capitalism, which is essentially what it will be no matter what the hell they are calling it, is a travesty. A spiral tower (as in spire, not an office building) as a monument, perhaps with a ground floor museum with relics of that day and unidentified remains in a mausoleum, would be respectful and appropriate. The AQ spokesperson on The Onion video, while satire, hit the nail on the head. This is not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/32 "2008-09-09T18:08:08Z")
I generally find the view that “something bad happened, therefore we must all be solemn and miserable and never use the land again” to generally be a disgusting waste of intelligent minds. Why not turn every inch of the earth into a mausoleum where we can all wail piteously for the dead while you’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/33 "2008-09-09T18:29:27Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I generally find the view that “something bad happened, therefore we must all be solemn and miserable and never use the land again” to generally be a disgusting waste of intelligent minds. Why not turn every inch of the earth into a mausoleum where we can all wail piteously for the dead while you’re at it? It’s a logical extension of the view that there should be a memorial at the site. Do you find _that_ a disgusting waste of intelligent minds? I must confess that I’m extremely confused as to how not using a piece of land would be a “waste of minds” in any case. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/34 "2008-09-09T18:40:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I generally find the view that “something bad happened, therefore we must all be solemn and miserable and never use the land again” to generally be a disgusting waste of intelligent minds. Why not turn every inch of the earth into a mausoleum where we can all wail piteously for the dead while you’re at it? I believe that most people are able to achieve a much healthier balance between the needs of the living and respect for the dead than you personally have managed. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/35 "2008-09-09T20:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > oh snap! The Great Pyramid took 20 years! We might beat Egypt. What a bunch of fucking slackers they were. > [@](#): > > In addition to the many theories as to the techniques involved, there are also disagreements as to the kind of workforce that was used. One theory, suggested by the Greeks, posits that slaves were forced to work until the pyramid was done. This theory is no longer accepted in the modern era, however. Archaeologists believe that the Great Pyramid was built by tens of thousands of skilled workers who camped near the pyramids and worked for a salary or as a form of paying taxes until the construction was completed. The worker’s cemeteries were discovered in 1990 by archaeologists Zahi Hawass and Mark Lehner. Verner posited that the labor was organized into a hierarchy, consisting of two gangs of 100,000 men, divided into five zaa or phyle of 20,000 men each, which may have been further divided according to the skills of the workers. From Wiki. There’s part of your answer–“tens of thousands of skilled workers.” ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/36 "2008-09-09T22:04:17Z")
> [@susan](#): > > “tens of thousands of skilled workers.” And mammoth herders! If the Freedom Tower hits a few more snags it could even lose to CERN (aka The Most Complicated Thing Ever Built (13 years)). And I kinda like the idea of a memorial tower instead of office space too. Is there still time for a legal challenge? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/37 "2008-09-09T23:46:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I must confess that I’m extremely confused as to how not using a piece of land would be a “waste of minds” in any case. I find the _viewpoint_ wastes minds. The plain fact of the matter is that this doesn’t even rise to the level of most smaller Civil War battlefields. And it’s in the middle of AMerica’s best city. And frankly, while I sympathize, the fact that something bad happened there does not somehow transmute it into Sacred Space. The people there can be remembered, but the fact is that they died for nothing. They died because they were in the wrong building at the wrong time, and by and large heroism was not their lot. Not their fault, but that’s life. We cannot honor them, for they simply… died. it’s a tragedy, even a memorial-worthy one, but destroying the possibility of recovery for the sake of maudlin memory is a loser’s game. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/38 "2008-09-10T00:15:46Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > it’s a tragedy, even a memorial-worthy one, but destroying the possibility of recovery for the sake of maudlin memory is a loser’s game. What do you mean by “possibility of recovery”? It’s been seven years. Things are pretty much back to normal business-wise. Auschwitz didn’t suffer economically because no one built an office tower and a multiplex on the site. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/39 "2008-09-10T01:05:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, they DID have some problems with the Cybermen/Dalek invasion, so it’s understandable… Ha! Thank you so much for this post, as I feel better now for instantly wondering if the Cybermen upgrading all those Torchwood agents might have had an impact. Ahem. Back to discussing skyscrapers and such. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/40 "2008-09-10T01:50:12Z")
As a New Yorker, the prevailing opinion has always been to rebuild. A significant minority have wanted to build _five_ towers, one slightly taller than the rest, the lot facing Mecca. New York has a long history. And when something happens, we rebuild. Bigger. Stronger. Better. Among other things, the Towers were picked because they were a symbol of the economic power of America. There is no reason to make that symbol vanish. Bring it down, and we will come back, stronger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398.md?page=3)