# What's up at Ground Zero? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398 "2008-09-06T22:11:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/41 "2008-09-10T01:52:15Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > As a New Yorker, the prevailing opinion has always been to rebuild. > A significant minority have wanted to build _five_ towers, one slightly taller than the rest, the lot facing Mecca. I remember thinking (at the time) how that would have been appropriate, and I’m not even a New Yorker (I’m not even a New York stater!). ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/42 "2008-09-10T02:08:08Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > New York has a long history. And when something happens, we rebuild. Bigger. Stronger. Better. > Among other things, the Towers were picked because they were a symbol of the economic power of America. > > There is no reason to make that symbol vanish. Bring it down, and we will come back, stronger. And sometimes New Yorkers realize that the old way wasn’t necessarily the best way. Excellent article from a 2003 Washington Post: [http://www.limelike.com/clips/washpost.html](http://www.limelike.com/clips/washpost.html) “Taking a lesson from the survivors, who have worked the hardest to heal, why don’t we admit aloud that we’re scared? Then, perhaps, we can shape a site that truly demonstrates our courage. Affordable housing and green spaces: These are what New York needs, not redundant office towers where mortals fear to tread. Maybe the best way to defy the terrorists is not with a display of hubris but by creating a future that doesn’t look like the past.” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/43 "2008-09-10T10:13:33Z")
There aren’t that many places in the City you can build skyscrapers, surprisingly. And nothing in that location would be ‘affordable housing.’ Especially not since the Port Authority has their hands in it. Park, maybe. Nice words, but they wind up translating to ‘Let’s all hug each other and feel good about our mother earth.’ Which is not a bad sentiment, but no real reason to do anything when dealing with multi-billion dollar situations. To cite from your article, Larry Silverstein really has no option. > [@](#): > > - to recoup his insurance money, he must rebuild all of the estimated 10 million square feet of office space lost on Sept. 11 If you can think of a good reason for him to throw all the money away, I’m listening. But ‘let’s build affordable housing and green spaces’ in a _relatively small_ footprint isn’t really a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/44 "2008-09-10T14:46:53Z")
_Screw_ how they do it in Dubai! (and California too, for that matter) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/45 "2008-09-10T15:03:37Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > . But ‘let’s build affordable housing and green spaces’ in a _relatively small_ footprint isn’t really a great idea. That’s putting it _very_ diplomatically. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/46 "2008-09-10T15:37:11Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > What do you mean by “possibility of recovery”? > > It’s been seven years. Things are pretty much back to normal business-wise. > > Auschwitz didn’t suffer economically because no one built an office tower and a multiplex on the site. I wasn’t a fan of the old towers, but the city needs the office space, it’s a good site, and an immensely symbolic guesture. moreover, Auschwitz never had an office site on the grounds, and there’s a difference between a Death Camp and a site where one really bad thing terrorism happened, once. The fact is that this is never going to become a deep, meaningfuly site left as is or turned into a memorial. People won’t learn anything and it will soon mean nothing. The alnd can be used for some good, so we are going to do that instead. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/47 "2008-09-10T20:59:43Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > My Questions: > Is there still a huge hole in the ground in Manhattan? Yes, however it is partially filled with the NJ PATH and subway station. > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > If not, please show me the new building (in whatever current state). Thanks. See above > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > If so, why hasn’t anything been built yet? They are building something there. It takes a long time to plan complex of skyscrapers. Especially given the particular location of this one, > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > How long does it typically take to build a skyscraper in the 21st century? (OK this is almost rhetorical because I saw one go up in SF this year in No Time Flat. But I’m still curious what the expectation should be under normal conditions, which these certainly were not.) Once all the planning, etc has been done? I’d say 1-5 years depending on size, construction, etc. > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > Bonus (loaded) questions: > How many skyscrapers has Dubai built since 2001? Misleading. Since 2001, I have witnessed probably as many major skyscrapers being built in Manhattan, including: the new 7 World Trade Center Bank of America building (taller than the Chrystler Building, second only to the Empire State) New York Times Tower (tied for 3rd with Chrystler Building ) 11 Times Square (Times Square Plaza) Wikipedia lists about 20 buildings taller than 600’ being constructed. Also, most of the world’s crane’s are actually in Dubaii right now. > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > Am I wrong to feel somehow ashamed that we still have nothing but a hole in the ground\*? Yes ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/48 "2008-09-11T16:03:10Z")
I’m not the only one frustrated… > **[Creating 9/11 memorials a slow process - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/11/911.memorials/?iref=mpstoryview)** > > Seven years after devastating terrorist attacks brought death to New York's World Trade Centers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field, the first permanent, on-site memorial is being dedicated Thursday at the Pentagon. " New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg stressed the importance of those dates and called progress “frustratingly slow” in an opinion piece published Wednesday in the Wall Street Journal. “The memorial must be completed by the 10th anniversary,” Bloomberg wrote. “No more excuses, no more delays.” “ **Nobody’s going to remember if it took five years or 10 years**. I’d like it to go faster. I’ve recommended we reduce the level of bureaucracy, but that’s not our number one priority.” Bolding mine. He’d like to think so, but I disagree. I think there is a point in it that history will hopefully not gloss over. That’s apparently not even the skyscraper/mall/subway station either. Just the memorial. And shit, even the one at the Pentagon took 7 years to build. A memorial park? 7 years? And somehow PA is even behind that? ouch. It’s like they gave America a black eye, and we let it fester into a putrid sore. But one day there will be enough makeup on the scar that nobody will have to remember the awful healing process. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/49 "2008-09-12T01:34:26Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > but the city needs the office space. For what exactly? The current vacancy rate is between 8% and 10%. "A new report report from Colliers ABR shows a Manhattan office vacancy rate of 8.7 percent in August, essentially unchanged from July and 2 percentage points higher than in August 2007. The average asking rent was also basically the same in August as in July (and August 2007) at $65.89 a square foot. More stats from the Colliers report: Midtown’s vacancy rate was 8.1 percent in August, down slightly from July and up from 6.3 percent a year ago. Midtown South’s vacancy rate was nearly 10 percent in August, its highest in years, driven up by vacancies in Chelsea and the Flatiron. Downtown’s vacancy rate was up to 8.8 percent in August from 8.6 percent in July." > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > moreover, Auschwitz never had an office site on the grounds It was a migrant worker camp. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > and there’s a difference between a Death Camp and a site where one really bad thing terrorism happened, once. I recall three incidents. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The alnd can be used for some good, so we are going to do that instead. NYC needs more affordable housing than it needs office space. How long have you lived here for? Surely you must have friends who tell you what they paid for their condos. My friend just paid 412,000 for a 14 x 16 studio condo. She got a deal. The average studio here costs 706,525. The average price for a one bedroom is 1,096,799. IMHO, studios for less than 500k and one bedrooms for less than 750k would be a lot more useful than unoccupied office space. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/50 "2008-09-12T01:54:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes, however it is partially filled with the NJ PATH and subway station. Sorry to hijack, but now that I commute daily to that station I’ve been wondering – has it always been there? Or was the station built after 9-11? I can’t stop thinking about it lately, wondering if people were riding those commuter trains in. Were there any victims in the station? ☹ p.s. I also pass a church really close to that site – a tiny church with really old-looking gravestones. It looks like something completely out of place in the middle of the financial district. What’s up with the church? Has _that_ always been there? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/51 "2008-09-12T04:00:26Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Sorry to hijack, but now that I commute daily to that station I’ve been wondering – has it always been there? Or was the station built after 9-11? There was a NJ Path station there prior to 9/11. I don’t believe anyone was killed in it. IIRC the trains were shut down after the first plane hit. My GF was taking the ferry into the World Financial Center across the street, however she jumped back on the NJ bound ferry once the first plane hit. I had also just started working at WFC (I had just signed my Manhattan lease starting 9/15), however my orientation week training was out of town that week. So it was a pretty magical day for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/52 "2008-09-16T16:48:30Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Sorry to hijack, but now that I commute daily to that station I’ve been wondering – has it always been there? Or was the station built after 9-11? > > I can’t stop thinking about it lately, wondering if people were riding those commuter trains in. Were there any victims in the station? > > ☹ > > p.s. I also pass a church really close to that site – a tiny church with really old-looking gravestones. It looks like something completely out of place in the middle of the financial district. What’s up with the church? Has _that_ always been there? The PATH station was there before, only underground. They got everyone out of the PATH station on a train before the first collapse. On Broadway and Fulton? The church is St. Paul’s. It was built in 1766. George Washington worshipped there. Or Trinity Churchyard at Trinity Place (Broadway and Wall St)? As old as that place is … it’s still an active cemetery. The only one in Manhattan that still is. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/53 "2008-09-18T16:04:30Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > I" **Nobody’s going to remember if it took five years or 10 years**. I’d like it to go faster. I’ve recommended we reduce the level of bureaucracy, but that’s not our number one priority." > > Bolding mine. He’d like to think so, but I disagree. I think there is a point in it that history will hopefully not gloss over. Please tell me what this point is. I do think these delays are unfortunate, and many of them are due to stupid behavior. But a lot of it was also unavoidable, at least in the sense that it was bound to happen. I guess you think it reveals a deep flaw in the human character, and maybe it does, but I don’t see it as a big deal. > [@](#): > > It’s like they gave America a black eye, and we let it fester into a putrid sore. That implies the delays in completing the memorials is worse than the attacks, which makes your analogy so bad it almost defies description entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/54 "2008-09-18T16:13:13Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Are you an architect? No? Then stuff it. The planning for the original WTC began in 1960 and was not completed until 1972. That’s 12 years. It’s not even been 7 years since the Towers fell. If not being an expert in a field is cause for someone to “stuff it” then you’d best just plain STFU. The wonder and glory of Google is that it is so easy to use that you are entirely superfluous in your self-appointed role as middleman. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398/55 "2008-09-19T00:13:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please tell me what this point is. I do think these delays are unfortunate, and many of them are due to stupid behavior. But a lot of it was also unavoidable, at least in the sense that it was bound to happen. I guess you think it reveals a deep flaw in the human character, and maybe it does, but I don’t see it as a big deal. > > That implies the delays in completing the memorials is worse than the attacks, which makes your analogy so bad it almost defies description entirely. It’s the aftertaste of all the speeches and songs and spectacle of everybody going to the site after the attack to talk about how much bigger and better America would rise. You’ll See! Meanwhile we’ve been stepping on our national dick ever since, and we still have just a hole in the ground to show for it. And you’re probably right that it is more about human nature than anything else… The wound analogy was not quite balanced. The point about inaction is still there though. Alternate analogy: It’s like if you were the leader of a nation that was being attacked, and you just sat there for 7 minutes like a bump on a log. What? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-at-ground-zero/462398.md?page=2)