# What's up with poverty and obesity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446 "2005-09-13T17:01:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/81 "2005-09-16T00:26:39Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Is there any evidence at all to support this idea? > > Even if we accept the idea that fat people are significantly less likely to marry, which I don’t, we are still left with the massive problem that most people gain weight with age. As a result a man can easily marry as a slim 25 year old and become a father as an overweight 35 year old. > > Then we have to contend with the idea that being single= being impoverished. I find that very hard to believe and would have thought exactly the opposite was true, that single people on average had slightly more money than married couples because most single people aren’t supporting children. > > Then we need to contend with the implication that fat parents beget fat children. Is there any evidence at all to support this claim? Blacks really do have higher obesity rates than whites though. Asians on the other hand have very low obesity rates. [http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/Obesity\_Minority\_Pop.shtml](http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/Obesity_Minority_Pop.shtml) [http://www.medstat.com/healthcare/obesity1.asp](http://www.medstat.com/healthcare/obesity1.asp) Fat parents do beget fat children. I don’t have a cite right now but I remember once reading if neither of your parents had a weight problem your chances of having one were 10%, if only one did it was 50%, if both did it was 90%. Here is another quote. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/15/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main629761.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/15/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main629761.shtml) In fact, the study found that 48 percent - almost half - of children with overweight parents became overweight themselves, compared to only 13 percent of children who had parents of normal weight. Here is an article showing the obese make less than the thin > **[Wider income gaps, wider waistbands? An ecological study of obesity and...](https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/8/670.full)** > > Objectives: To see if obesity, deaths from diabetes, and daily calorie intake are associated with income inequality among developed countries. > > Design: Ecological study of 21 developed countries. > > Countries: Countries were eligible for inclusion if... ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/82 "2005-09-16T00:41:15Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Why would those who are the least able to afford food be so large? You might as well point to a picture of a poor person with a cigarette or a bottle of beer and ask “Why would those who are least able to afford it be such heavy smokers, or drinkers?” People, including but not limited to poor people, don’t always make the wisest use of the money & resources they have, for various reasons, many of which have already been alluded to in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/83 "2005-09-16T00:44:08Z")
Okay. Talking, here, about predominantly blue collar, northeast, small city population made up of people of various southern European ancestries. Actually, in my neck of the woods the majority of the people are of Portuguese descent–I live about 15 miles from where Emeril grew up. Here, folks, thin = unhealthy and heavy = well nourished/healthy. “You, you’re nothing but skin and bones! Here, eat this pile of pork sausage!” They sound like Mrs. Santa in the Rudolph special. “Eat, pappa EEEEAAT. Nobody wants to see a skinny Santa!” These people are generally not lazy, but many are relatively low income laborers or mill workers and the like. The live in “three decker” or “four decker” tenements. The grow grapes and fresh vegetables in their back yards. And they don’t like to see anyone underfed. It would be considered poor hospitality not to have the table overloaded with food. thin=unhealthy It’s purely cultural around here. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/84 "2005-09-16T00:51:03Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Blacks really do have higher obesity rates than whites though. Asians on the other hand have very low obesity rates. Yes, that has been well established. What hasn’t been established however is that this is in any way linked to genetics as was claimed, rather than being entirely socio-economic. Is there any evidence or even any plausible argument to support the idea of any genetic factors at play here? We do however have a reference to support the idea that fat parents have fat children, but it doesn’t say when the parent’s weight was measured, whether it was before they conceived or after. If after then it really has little bearing on the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/85 "2005-09-16T00:53:00Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > People, including but not limited to poor people, don’t always make the wisest use of the money & resources they have, for various reasons, many of which have already been alluded to in this thread. Agree. We all want to find a politically-correct answer to the OP’s question. But we must leave open the very real possibility that the answer is not as politically correct as we wish it to be. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/86 "2005-09-16T01:15:38Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Is there any evidence or even any plausible argument to support the idea of any genetic factors at play here? Blake! you’re posting in another (short!) thread where I talked about and referenced about the genetic studies regarding obesity in [only the fifth post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6582781&postcount=5): > [@uglybeech](#): > > Here’s a [review](http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/144/9/3757) which says that fat mass is about 40 to 70% heritable depending on the study (height is 75-90% heritable for comparison). They calculate these figures through twin studies (seeing how much more similar identical twins are compared to fraternal twins in their fat distribution). There have been tons of studies (you can look in the bibliography to find some of them). As for your other objections to my argument in the earlier posts - most of what you called assumptions were actually well supported. It’ll take me all evening to cite, so I’ll get to it later. The only place which was purely my own speculation was in the impact of assortative mating on obesity rates among the poor. The facts behind that I can support though. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/87 "2005-09-16T01:40:17Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Blake! you’re posting in another (short!) thread where I talked about and referenced about the genetic studies regarding obesity in [only the fifth post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6582781&postcount=5): Dude, that doesn’t even mention race, so perhaps you can explain how it in any way supports claims about a genetic component to the racial differences in prevalence of obesity? I don’t see how it does any such thing. > [@](#): > > As for your other objections to my argument in the earlier posts - most of what you called assumptions were actually well supported. It’ll take me all evening to cite, so I’ll get to it later. Jolly good. I look forward ot seeing evidence that western European came to agricuylture significantly erlier than west Africans. I look forward to seeing references that HGs have more need to store fat than agriculturalists. And FFS if you see spam like that just report it. By re-posting the entire thing you just make me have to wade thorugh it twice, as well as leaving more mess for the mods to delete. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/88 "2005-09-16T01:53:18Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And FFS if you see spam like that just report it. By re-posting the entire thing you just make me have to wade thorugh it twice, as well as leaving more mess for the mods to delete. :mad: Yes, please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/89 "2005-09-16T02:25:12Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > I’m 5-foot-8 and weigh about 160 lbs. I’m actually a little bit _underweight_. Not to burst your bubble, but at 5’8’’ and 160 lbs you’re far from being underweight. Not overweight, but definitely not underweight (not even a bit). ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/90 "2005-09-16T03:00:49Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > Not to burst your bubble, but at 5’8’’ and 160 lbs you’re far from being underweight. Not overweight, but definitely not underweight (not even a bit). Really? Huh. The guy at the gym a few years ago did some wrist-measuring thing and told me I had a large frame, and that I should weigh 177 lbs. Oh well 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/91 "2005-09-16T03:15:34Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > Really? Huh. The guy at the gym a few years ago did some wrist-measuring thing and told me I had a large frame, and that I should weigh 177 lbs. Oh well 🙂 That’s the thing, there’s not an ideal weight. People aren’t _supposed_ to deliver a certain number on the scale. So, to put it on hip and cool terms (because I’m feeling hip and cool here), the guy at the gym: that guy’s whack. But yeah, I’m 5’7’’ and, even though I wouldn’t consider myself (no one would, actually) to have a big frame, I wasn’t underweight when I was 120 lbs at 7% body fat. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/92 "2005-09-16T04:41:19Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Yes, please. Sorry Giraffe. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/93 "2005-09-16T10:57:14Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > What if I do believe that Americans are more obese than people from other countries (who have comparable access to food - countries where you cannot obtain any food are a separate issue) because they are lazier and more ill disciplined, and that they are more obese now than they were in the past because we are now lazier and more ill disciplined? I do not think that’s much of a stretch. Then you would have to explain why folks in the U.S. consistently score at the top of the ratings when economists study productivity across international boundaries. Now, if you wished to make a case that Americans are more sedentary during their leisure time, you can probably make a case for that, as has already been noted in the references to television, above. However, at that point the topic is more complex than just a dismissive “they’re lazy.” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/94 "2005-09-16T12:21:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Then you would have to explain why folks in the U.S. consistently score at the top of the ratings when economists study productivity across international boundaries. Eh, you’d need to narrow this down a little. Does it factor in American mechanisation and the enormous per-capita energy consumption? Hypothetically, a population can be comparatively idle, but if a significant fraction of it has access to a button-pressing job on a modern, automated production line, the productivity is going to be pretty darn huge. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Now, if you wished to make a case that Americans are more sedentary during their leisure time, you can probably make a case for that, as has already been noted in the references to television, above. However, at that point the topic is more complex than just a dismissive “they’re lazy.” True. OTOH aren’t we also discussing “lazy” food choices? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/95 "2005-09-16T16:15:04Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > It’s not that you have to buy oil and flour and spices each time you cook- it’s that until you’ve been cooking steadily for a few months, every time you follow a recipe you’re going to end up spending five dollars more than you really can budget for. This also does not make a lot of sense. My experience is that most staples are cheaper to buy in bulk than packaged convenience foods. Iny my area at least, you can get a loaf of bread, a dozen eggs and a quart of orange juice for the price of a fairly modest meal at McDonald’s, and it will last a heck of a lot longer. Nor are you likely to gain as much weight. > [@even sven](#): > > This was a big problem in my household growing up- Mom would decide to “get responsible” and cook, only to discover that she had to buy boxes of cornstarch and dried oragano and crap like that just to make one recipe- which might not even turn out well. It just wasn’t worth it in the short term, and when you’re paycheck to paycheck, you’ve only got the short term. > > [here](http://www.frugal-families.com/Articles/Kitchen/wellstockedpantry.htm) is a “frugal” list of what a well stocked pantry should have. Even buying two of these things in bulk will kill a day’s budget. I think the point is that buying in bulk tends to cover more than just one day’s food. So if the argument is “I have to spend every dime I’ve got on a Happy Meal[sup]TM[/sup], so I can’t afford to buy something to feed me for a week”, that doesn’t work real well logically. > [@even sven](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The rest of the post made it sound like most US poor people are hovering on the edge of starvation. I would respond, but if anything would send this thread to GD or the Pit, it would be that. > > Do you not think there are hungry in America? I think that almost by definition, an obese person has had consistent access to enough food - indeed, more than enough. So unless you can show that diseases of deficiency like beri-beri or pellagra or kwashkiorkor are pandemic among the obese poor, then ISTM that “hunger” in the sense of “consistently lacking access to enough food to maintain body weight and prevent micro-nutrient deficiencies” is not a major problem among the obese in America. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/96 "2005-09-16T16:26:34Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > There are Supermarkets in the “ghetto”…however they tend to stock what the community desires to consume and are generally expensive to shop in, the ‘convenience’ stores are even more expensive. Not necessarily. Here in Jackson, MS the financial problems of Winn-Dixie are a cause for some big concern. Basically, they’re closing a bunch of stores here, and in the worse neighborhoods (the “ghetto”) they’re having a hell of a time trying to find anyone to take over these soon-to-be-vacant buildings. Crime is one reason given - and it’s naturally the one trumpeted by the local media. I’m sure there are others. The Aldermen and the like in such neighborhoods are floating any idea they can to try to prevent the loss of their local grocery stores. Just a little added info. The point being that if those stores don’t reopen as something those areas will become even more neighborhoods fed by convenience stores. Which will rip them off financially even more… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/97 "2005-09-16T16:27:02Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not that you have to buy oil and flour and spices each time you cook- it’s that until you’ve been cooking steadily for a few months, every time you follow a recipe you’re going to end up spending five dollars more than you really can budget for. This was a big problem in my household growing up- Mom would decide to “get responsible” and cook, only to discover that she had to buy boxes of cornstarch and dried oragano and crap like that just to make one recipe- which might not even turn out well. Then cook meals that don’t require all of these things. In any case, is there a meal out there that requires oregano as a fundamental ingredient? Surely the oregano is added to increase the flavouring? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/98 "2005-09-16T16:59:25Z")
Since most folks are just pulling things out of their butts in this thread, here’s what I pulled out of mine. . . I think it’s the **interaction** of two factors: _low education level_ and _the accessibility of food in the US_. Yes, it requires a certain amount of knowledge to know what a good diet and exercise plan is. It’s difficult even for the wealthy with a lot of leisure time. Poor people in other countries (who are also under-educated) just don’t have the means to acquire food. Ergo, they’re skinny. Here, FOOD IS CHEAP. All food. A bag of carrots, a super size meal at McDonalds, fried chicken, 2 medium pizzas, a roast beef, a turkey. You can get a lot of calories for a little money and if you don’t have an understanding of nutrition beyond “more food makes me fat”, you’re more likely to get fat. Those two factors explain why you don’t see it as much in other countries, and why you see it more among the poor, since education level in the US is highly correlated with income level. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/99 "2005-09-17T17:05:10Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > It’s not that you have to buy oil and flour and spices each time you cook- it’s that until you’ve been cooking steadily for a few months, every time you follow a recipe you’re going to end up spending five dollars more than you really can budget for. This was a big problem in my household growing up- Mom would decide to “get responsible” and cook, only to discover that she had to buy boxes of cornstarch and dried oragano and crap like that just to make one recipe- which might not even turn out well. Do any of your grocery stores have bulk sections? Not sections where you have to buy 10 lbs of flour, but sections where there are big bins of staples and you pay by the pound, whether you get 1/2 lb or 20. You can get just as much flour, spices, etc as you need, and you aren’t paying for all the packaging and stuff. There are also cookbooks featuring “5 ingredients or less” recipes in my public library. The meals aren’t gourmet, but they are certainly healthier than McToadburgers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/100 "2005-09-17T17:26:51Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No, it isn’t. Words have meaning. Some words are more flexible than others. Asking for a “cite” has a specific meaning. On this board, it does not mean provide supportive reasoning, it means, “I’m going to try to use this clever trick I half understood from my years of academia, and ask you to provide a reference for a non-factual opinion.” That is when it is a cheap rhetorical device. Utter bullshit. The way it is generally used here is the way I stated. Using it to request supporting data or reasoning in GQ is standard. > [@](#): > > [Perhaps it is because the poor there can not afford enough to get fat, or actually need to work at jobs demanding physical labor such that they burn it off? I.e. they are not as lazy as the rich in those countries? > > Third World countries do not have a social safety net to save you (and let you be fat) if you are unwilling to work or unable to buy food. Then it isn’t really a difference in “laziness” as some kind of innate quality, is it? It’s a difference in necessity, not in the basic quality or attitude of the person. And this still doesn’t explain why rich people in third world countries are successful even though they are “lazier” than poor people. (True, some have inherited wealth, but in my experience many are entrepreneur). “Laziness” simply doesn’t work across the board as an explanation for why people become fat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446.md?page=6)