# What's up with poverty and obesity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446 "2005-09-13T17:01:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/161 "2005-09-18T23:52:04Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Well at least you’re admitting that it ultimately comes down to discipline & willpower. (I’m glad we’re finally getting past the BS.) You can get your weight down to 200 lbs, for example. But it would take more effort, more discipline, and more willpower than you’re willing to endure. Heck, I could get my weight down to 120 lbs. All it would take is more effort, more discipline, and more willpower. No, I don’t know if people have the willpower to do it. How long can you resist torture? If you think you can resist it indefinately by willpower alone then you are wrong as tons of people throughout human history have been broken under torture. This issue is no different, willpower has limits on how much it can accomplish. Yeah, willpower could overcome biochemistry but only if willpower is strong enough or biochemistry is weak enough. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/162 "2005-09-18T23:55:35Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Crash dieting when you gain weight. That, and only that, provides you with the ability to regulate weight over time. Even \*\*Crafter\_Man \*\* admits that that’s what he does. When I gain a couple pounds (say I’m at 152 lbs.), I will jog a few more miles and cut back on my caloric intake until I’m back down to 150 lbs. You call that crash dieting? You also said: > [@](#): > > Most people are unshakably convinced that permanent modest lifestyle changes are the solution… It can’t possibly work… It’s an exercise in both frustration and stupidtity… people think that once they’ve lost weight by dropping their energy balance by some huge amount they can maintain that weight by some finer calibration of “lifestyle regulation.” They think they can consciously manage a “healthy” energy balance.) I’m trying to understand your point here. Are you saying it’s very difficult to count calories in order to maintain a given weight? Perhaps. But who cares? People want to lose weight, correct? And they want to keep the weight off, correct? Well there **is** a way to do it. And it entails diet, exercise, and discipline. Nothing more, nothing less. It works for everyone, regardless of income. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/163 "2005-09-19T00:13:20Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > No, I don’t know if people have the willpower to do it. How long can you resist torture? If you think you can resist it indefinately by willpower alone then you are wrong as tons of people throughout human history have been broken under torture. This issue is no different, willpower has limits on how much it can accomplish. Yeah, willpower could overcome biochemistry but only if willpower is strong enough or biochemistry is weak enough. It’s called _weakness_, **Wesley**. And a fat and weak person will _ **never** _ be able to lose weight and keep it off. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but that’s the painful truth. I have known dozens of people who have tried to permanently lose weight. All but two have failed. Why? It had nothing to do with their “biochemistry,” a “disease,” or whatever. Each _ **quit** _ their diet & exercise program, and (surprise surprise) the weight came back. Why did they quit? Laziness, weakness, lack of discipline, etc. Losing weight and keeping it off is _ **tough** _, and should not be attempted by the undisciplined and weak-minded. You would be absolutely _shocked_ if you saw what I ate everyday. 95% of people would not have the strength to stay on my diet for a week (let alone 10 years). They would “crack” after one week, and go back to eating McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/164 "2005-09-19T00:22:24Z")
Again, there are people who are 30-40 pounds thinner than you are, in their eyes you are weak and lazy, what you do doesn’t compare to what professional bodybuilders or celebrities go through to lose weight and keep it off, they feel the same way about you that you feel about people fatter than yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/165 "2005-09-19T00:28:50Z")
And do you really think this is a success for a medical intervention? Lets assume 90-95% of people who try to diet fail. Of the remaining 5-10% what they have to do to succeed is so severe that they have to become intolerant, angry and bitter just to keep their motivation high enough to do it. How is that a success? I have met tons of people who have lost weight and alot (but not all) are very angry and intolerant about weight and fat. That is not success to me. Success is a 90-100% success rate for weight loss followed by compassion and peace of mind, not a 95% failure rate followed by low self esteem in those 95% and intense intolerance in the 5% who succeed. Its better to wait until scientists come up with a working cure that doesn’t fail 95% of the time and make the remaining 5% become bitter. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/166 "2005-09-19T00:36:46Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > You would be absolutely _shocked_ if you saw what I ate everyday. 95% of people would not have the strength to stay on my diet for a week (let alone 10 years). They would “crack” after one week, and go back to eating McDonald’s. If you’re eating a severely calorie restricted diet every day then you’re doing a severely restricted amount of physical work too. Or in the terms of this post, you must be lazy. There’s just no way around that no matter how much you insist your body doesn’t obey physical laws. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/167 "2005-09-19T00:46:15Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Its better to wait until scientists come up with a working cure that doesn’t fail 95% of the time and make the remaining 5% become bitter. Let’s hope science comes up with something. But for now, that’s the way it is, **Wesely**. Unless you want to go through gastric bypass surgery, there is no other way. > [@uglybeech](#): > > If you’re eating a severely calorie restricted diet every day then you’re doing a severely restricted amount of physical work too. You’re right – I’m not that active. Other than jogging everyday, I don’t get much exercise. Unfortunately I spend a lot of time at the computer for my job and school. I wish I could do more physical activity (therefore allowing me to eat more), but school & work simply do not allow it. Of course, I _recognize_ this, and I am careful not to eat more than I burn. And that’s my whole point – I only eat enough to maintain 150 lbs. If I were more physically active, I would end up eating more to maintain 150 lbs. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/168 "2005-09-19T00:47:07Z")
For those who subscribe to the “weakness” theory, I would like you to address a situation to which you may not be familiar, and one which I brought up earlier in this thread: when the body’s hunger level for food is higher than the body needs. And no, in some people this does not change with dieting and weight loss. They stay hungry even after they have lost the excess weight. Hunger, like thirst or lack of sleep, can often take over much of a person’s thoughts, where everything else becomes a distraction until the hunger is sated. If you have not experienced this, it is easy to dismiss it as a lack of willpower. Not every metabolism’s hunger level is in synch with the body’s sustenance level. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/169 "2005-09-19T00:50:30Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > For those who subscribe to the “weakness” theory, I would like you to address a situation to which you may not be familiar, and one which I brought up earlier in this thread: when the body’s hunger level for food is higher than the body needs. And no, in some people this does not change with dieting and weight loss. They stay hungry even after they have lost the excess weight. Hunger, like thirst or lack of sleep, can often take over much of a person’s thoughts, where everything else becomes a distraction until the hunger is sated. If you have not experienced this, it is easy to dismiss it as a lack of willpower. > > Not every metabolism’s hunger level is in synch with the body’s sustenance level. Hunger is mental, not physical. If you go to bed “hungry” in this sense, you will not die. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/170 "2005-09-19T00:55:39Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > For those who subscribe to the “weakness” theory, I would like you to address a situation to which you may not be familiar, and one which I brought up earlier in this thread: when the body’s hunger level for food is higher than the body needs. And no, in some people this does not change with dieting and weight loss. They stay hungry even after they have lost the excess weight. Hunger, like thirst or lack of sleep, can often take over much of a person’s thoughts, where everything else becomes a distraction until the hunger is sated. If you have not experienced this, it is easy to dismiss it as a lack of willpower. > > Not every metabolism’s hunger level is in synch with the body’s sustenance level. I’m frequently hungry. Not sure why, and I don’t care, frankly. I certainly don’t use it as an excuse to stuff myself full of food. I just drink some water and go on with what I’m doing. As I stated above, you need _strength_ and _discipline_ to lose weight and keep it off. If you do _not_ have the strength to eat less and overcome hunger pains, then don’t even attempt to lose weight; you _will_ lose. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/171 "2005-09-19T01:00:03Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Hunger is mental, not physical. If you go to bed “hungry” in this sense, you will not die. To expand. . . As I said, several months ago, I was twenty pounds heavier than I am now, and I’m still a bit overweight. I had been at that weight for several years, and have been overweight most of my life. I’m used to eating a lot and eating well. One thing I miss most is all-you-can-eat spaghetti Tuesdays at a local Italian place in my hometown. It helps that I’m 3 hours away (so it’s physically impossible to cave to that), but man, I woud go in there some days and have four plates full of spaghetti and four or five slices of garlic bread. That was some good stuff. So I do get hungry. I’m sure not as hungry as some people, say, who have lost 50 or 100 pounds (whether from a “crash diet” or not), but I do, sometimes, get to the point where all I can think about is food. Sometimes I cave, sometimes I don’t, sometimes I try to make it go away (drinking, whether water, diet soda or sugar-free fruit drinks, seems to help me). When I cave, I try to make sure it’s both filling and low in calories (celery, carrots, sugar-free jello, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/172 "2005-09-19T01:07:47Z")
**Garfield266** : I miss all kinds of things. In 10 years I haven’t had one ounce of ice cream, French fires, mashed potatoes, bacon, sausage, or fried chicken. And I _love_ those things. But I love being a normal weight even more, hence my abstinence from fatty foods… ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/173 "2005-09-19T01:19:59Z")
Back to the OP: Why are so many poor people fat? As I have repeatedly stated, it takes an enormous amount of discipline and strength to lose weight and keep it off. If a person possesses the discipline and strength to lose weight and keep it off, then they probably also possess the discipline and strength to make money. Naysayers will point out that there are a lot of middle and upper class people who are fat. True. But it is possible for a person to be disciplined in some areas and not others. But the point is this: if a person is undisciplined and weak in _ **all** _ aspects of their life, then there’s a good chance they will be poor, **and** fat, **and** lazy, **and** uneducated, etc. Hence the reason why poor people tend to be fat. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/174 "2005-09-19T01:27:33Z")
Contrary to popular belief: Willett, W.C., Leibel, R.L., “Dietary Fat Is Not A Major Determinant of Body Fat,” _American Journal of Medicine, 113_(9BS), 2002, pp. 47S-59S. > [@](#): > > [W]ithin the United States, a substantial decline in the percentage of energy from fat during the last 2 decades has corresponded with a massive increase in the prevalence of obesity. Diets high in fat do not appear to be the primary cause of the high prevalence of excess body fat in our society, and reductions in fat will not be a solution. Willet, W.C., “Is Dietary Fat a Major Determinant of Body Fat?,” _American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 67_(Suppl), 1998, pp. 556S-562S. > [@](#): > > [W]hile short-term studies have shown that subjects fed a low-fat diet may lose a modest amount of weight, many other studies have shown that higher fat diets (as high as 40% of calories) result in little or no increase in body fat. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/175 "2005-09-19T02:29:45Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Only “bulk sections” I’ve ever seen in a mainstream supermarket have been for candies (you bag your own candy, then pay by the pound). Within a 1 mile radius, I have WinCo, FredMeyers, and a food co-op that all offer bulk packaging and pricing for flour, nuts, grains, dried fruits, and candy. I’m pretty sure one of our Safeways offers bulk as well. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/176 "2005-09-19T02:39:48Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Not every metabolism’s hunger level is in synch with the body’s sustenance level. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/177 "2005-09-19T03:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **Crafter Man** : All it would take is more effort, more discipline, and more willpower. **Cite?** > [@](#): > > **Garfield226** : Hunger is mental, not physical. How do you both explain that hunger is affected by medications which are also used to treat seizures? **Crafter Man** , how to you explain that some people who have been deprived of carbohydrates for a long period of time lose interest in food altogether? Does the absence of carbohydrates equal an increase in “will power”? When carbohydrates are reintroduced into the system, why does the “will power” to refrain from overeating other substances besides carbohydrates decrease? **Garfield** , if hunger is only mental, then why is it affected by the size of the stomach or a sensation of fullness after eating? How did this thread get to stay in GQ this long? **If you have a weight and metabolic rate which is appropriate for your body, that does not mean that the methods that you used to reach your goal are workable, doable, or maintainable for everyone. Being overweight does NOT mean that you are weak. Read the science.** (I have maintained a 150 pound weight loss for seven+ years. That is half the weight that I was. My weight loss had nothing to do with will power. **YMMV** but sound scientific methods do not.) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/178 "2005-09-19T03:37:09Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > how to you explain that some people who have been deprived of carbohydrates for a long period of time lose interest in food altogether? Does the absence of carbohydrates equal an increase in “will power”? When carbohydrates are reintroduced into the system, why does the “will power” to refrain from overeating other substances besides carbohydrates decrease? Um, you appear to be talking about an abnormal physical condition, **Zoe**. Heck, two can play that game… people who have cancer often lose weight. Does that mean cancer gives them discipline and strength? We so desperately want to find a nice, feel-good/blame-free/politically-correct reason for why people are fat. But the brutal truth is that people are fat because they eat too much and/or do not get enough exercise. Furthermore, it takes a lot of discipline for a person to permanently change their eating and exercise habits. > [@](#): > > I have maintained a 150 pound weight loss for seven+ years. That is half the weight that I was. My weight loss had nothing to do with will power. What did you do? You undoubtedly ate less, or ate better, or increased your level of physical activity. Whether you admit it or not, it took dedication and discipline for you to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/179 "2005-09-19T04:50:31Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > But the point is this: if a person is undisciplined and weak in _ **all** _ aspects of their life, then there’s a good chance they will be poor, **and** fat, **and** lazy, **and** uneducated, etc. Hence the reason why poor people tend to be fat. This is good analysis and true. A lot of what else you are saying is not true. I think we should distinguish between morbid obesity caused by flagrant overeating and a complete lack of exercise and fatness that exists despite the person’s desire to take reasonable weight loss measures. Basic willpower and discipline can turn a 300-pounder who eats like a swine and never leaves the couch into, say, a 250-pounder who eschews the extra Big Mac and shake and goes for a 30-minute walk every day. I think it’s equivocation (and thus fallacious) to say that “willpower” and “discipline” can be guaranteed to turn a 180-pounder into a 150-pounder. **Wesley Clark** has made many fine points in this regard. I know what it’s like to have my metabolism change, and I also know what it’s like to be on a program like the one you’re doing. When I was a teen, there simply were no limits on my eating. I never even thought about it–every meal was all-you-can-eat. I was always thin enough, never gave my weight a second thought. But being adopted, I was in a family of quite fat people who constantly suffered to lose weight. The genetic role was ultra-clear. In my early 20s my metabolism changed. I could stay in the 160s or high 150s (where I wanted to be), but I would have to try a bit (willpower and discipline). Then, at age 29 I got married (to a very good cook) and my metabolism changed again (for the worse, of course). This double punch put me into the low 180s. If I ate even one largish meal in a day I would gain a half pound. Even staying below 180 meant a lot of that willpower and discipline. I did get back into the low 160s once, because I do have a lot of that willpower and discipline. The method was pretty simple: starvation combined with a ton of exercise. I would eat just one meal a day, I quit drinking completely, and I would stay hopped up on caffeine all the time (tea, not pills) to suppress my appetite. I was on a constant fat-burning high and could feel the burn, it seemed, in every cell of my body. It was fun in a weird way and a real triumph. But you know the rest of the story. I gained the weight back. The reason being that _even what I felt to be very reasonable eating combined with copious amounts of exercise_ still put me into the 180s! If I ate as much as I wanted and exercised not much at all, I would be 185. If I went all-out, exercised a lot and felt a lot of hunger, I could get down to 180 or so. So you see, that’s not a very good deal, is it? Go whole hog (in reverse) and still not accomplish the goal? You are assuming that your level of willpower and disciple would get anyone down to 150 because it got you there. That’s incorrect. Some people do twice as much as you but still hover at 250. Again, I think most people with basic discipline can aspire to a weight that won’t kill them. I don’t think _at all_ that it is possible for everyone to be svelte and sexy. I myself haven’t given up. I really want to get down to 175 or so, at which weight I’ll look pretty good anyway. I guess it’s time to drink lots of tea and start skipping lots of meals… ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446/180 "2005-09-19T06:27:29Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I think we should distinguish between morbid obesity caused by flagrant overeating and a complete lack of exercise… There’s no such animal as I’ve pointed out 4 times [1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6593639&postcount=115)[2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6593735&postcount=120)[3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6594391&postcount=129)[4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6594778&postcount=135). There’s virtually no human on earth whose energy balance over their lifetime is measurably different from yours. It could be that such a person is “flagrantly overeating,” but if they are they’re by necessity doing a lot more physical work (exercise) than you are to compensate. On the other hand if they’re doing no exercise whatsoever they have to be eating very little to compensate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-poverty-and-obesity/321446.md?page=10)