# Whats up with road construction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 12, 1999, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279 "1999-09-12T06:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/21 "1999-09-14T16:14:00Z")
There’s a underground protest group that’s at work in the DC area. When a neighborhood sees that road construction is headed toward them, they erect orange protest signs that read “End Road Construction”. And amazingly, it works! No news yet from the school bus drivers who want to “Stop State Law”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/22 "1999-09-14T16:31:00Z")
Actually, roads that last for 50 years or more can easily be built, and it would cost much, much less to build them that way. Unfortunately, it would require spending more money _this_ year, and since American politicians (and, to be fair, American voters) have a mental horizon that cuts off at the next election, that’s out of the question. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/23 "1999-09-14T16:40:00Z")
A sign that I saw once: > [@](#): > > Scientists estimate that, in 5 billion years, the sun will burn out. This means construction on I-75 will have to be finished in the dark. * * * “Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.” ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/24 "1999-09-14T16:52:00Z")
Thanks, Akatsukami…just spit my coffee all over the monitor! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/25 "1999-09-15T05:24:00Z")
And thanks to _you_ John W., for pointing out what I’ve been waiting to say until I read all responses – to say that the ‘culprit’ for road wear is ice is to avoid the real issue, since European highways are designed and built to last 50 years before needing major repair, and most American roads are designed for no more than 20, and partly because of that, require more maintenance to get them through to the end of that period. A few months back, I happened to catch a feature (IIRC, on the Discovery Channel on _Discovery Magazine_ which reported some engineering school’s recent ‘breakthrough’ in formulating high-strength, durable cement for highway construction. Taking a cue from the past, they had studied the construction of Roman roads (and the Coliseum, I believe, since it has also lasted so long) and determined that the reason the Romans’ works lasted the way they did is that they used volcanic ash in their cement/concrete. The ash was microfine by its very nature, and this feature, when used in a cement, permitted the cement to be virtually impervious to water damage because it did not contain nearly as many of the ‘micro-cracks’ Nickerz mentioned. The engineering school had taken this an extra step, and even _further_ microfined their new substance. It also (again, IIRC) demonstrated greater resistance to loading when placed in a press. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/26 "1999-09-14T18:14:00Z")
[quote] Scientists estimate that, in 5 billion years, the sun will burn out. This means construction on I-75 will have to be finished in the dark.[/quote} 😃 LOL!!! 😃 That made my day! I’ve got to show that post to my dad. * * * “I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island ---
**Author:** ![Nickrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@Nickrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nickrz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/27 "1999-09-15T23:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, roads that last for 50 years or more can easily be built, and it would cost much, much less to build them that way. Add this to the 100 mile-per-gallon carburetor and the cure for cancer the automakers and the drug companies are suppressing. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 1999, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/28 "1999-09-16T14:49:00Z")
No, Nickerz, try adding this to your ‘true facts’ file. The German autobahn has lasted 50+ years without anything like the major reconstruction of most American highways. Highways in many, if not most, of the countries of northern Europe, are built to just such stringent standards. ---
**Author:** ![jayron\_32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/41988e/32.png) [@jayron\_32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayron_32)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/29 "1999-09-17T06:49:00Z")
For anyone wondering where all the federal highway money in Illinois went: I-74, and I-39. The only useful stretches of either of these highways are multiplexed with other roads (I-74/55 for example). I have traveled I-74 from Springfield to Quincy, and I am convinced that it is the biggest waste of asphault in existance. It’s not like it “goes” anywhere… plans exist to extend it from Quincy to Hannibal, MO, but it would just end there as well. I’m not sure what need there is for a multi-lane controlled access divided highway that connects a city of a scant 100,000 folks to one of about 20,000 folks, and just ends there. There is no long distance travel on I-74, and it goes to no major metropolises… Likewise, I-39 covers the hugely popular Peoria-to-Madison, WI route… More inconcievable “porkbarell parkways:” I-99 (The Bud Schuster Highway) Funny how the chairman of the House transportation comittee gets an interstate through his district that connects the booming communities of Altoona and State College to the Turnpike, while I-70 from Maryland to Breezewood (a high-traffic route, especially for long distance truckers) has been in dire need of repair for years now. I-82: Does the desert of southern Oregon need its own bypass? I-86: New York State has been refitting the scenic but oft unused Southern Tier Expressway to make it suitible for Interstate Highway designation (and likewise the funding that will bring). Why create a free route that would provide an alternative to a well-maintained Toll Route? Will anyone take the Thruway if a faster, cheaper, and just-as-well maintained road will do as well? Why not spend the cash repairing and refitting the decrepit parkway system. The Henry Hudson/Sawmill could use some serious bridge repair, and most of these roads could use some SHOULDERS. Instead, Pataki presses forward with the I-86 project. Don’t get me wrong, I LIKE traveling the 17. Its a beautiful drive, but wouldn’t these highway dollars be better spent fixing roads in urban areas larger than Binghamton, Elmira, or Corning? * * * Jason R Remy “What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate” Warden in _Cool Hand Luke_ ---
**Author:** ![Nickrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@Nickrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nickrz)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/30 "1999-09-17T09:44:00Z")
John & DIF - I suggest you do a little more research before making ridiculous claims of roadways that “last 50+ years” (without “major” reconstruction?). Most of the interchange ramps in the former East Germany were built of _cobblestone_, for cripe sake. The German Autobahn is _constantly_ undergoing reconstruction, just as most major U.S. highways are. The Germans inspect and repair the autobahn far more often than we do, but the result is the same: entire sections of the roadway are replaced. There is no question the autobahn is a superbly maintained highway, but the suggestion it was built for “much, much less” or that it somehow requires less maintenance or reconstruction than American highways just doesn’t hold water. Check out this website if you’re in doubt: [http://www.enconnect.net/greengrl/autobahn.htm](http://www.enconnect.net/greengrl/autobahn.htm) It says there the autobahn is paved with “freeze-resistant concrete or bitmuminous” which means “concrete and blacktop” that are subject to the same laws of physics as roads in Chicago or anywhere else water freezes at 32 degrees. There is no secret formula or magic blacktop that can stand up to mother nature or Consolidated Freightways for anything like 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/31 "1999-09-17T12:13:00Z")
Nickrz, I suggest you read more of your own referenced links before displaying your rhetorical deficiencies by needlessly and pointlessly attempting to insult the other participants in the thread. And _you’re_ supposed to be a _moderator_, for cryin’ out loud?! You said: > [@](#): > > Most of the interchange ramps in the former East Germany were built of cobblestone, for cripe sake. John and I were probably both overestimating your ability to extract the meaning of sentences when we assumed you would be able to understand we were talking of the _West_ German Autobahn, especially since, in the very link you provide, it says: > [@](#): > > The roads are in extremely excellent condition, except in the east where the government is trying to undo 40 years of neglect by the East Germans. Obviously (well, at least to most people), we would not be including in our comparison to the Autobahn those sections of the Autobahn which hadn’t been properly maintained for so many years. Your assertion that the road is well-maintained kind of ‘glosses over’ the main point, vis: > [@](#): > > Crews inspect every meter of the system periodically, and when a fissure or other defect is found, **the entire road section is replaced**. _(Emphasis mine-DIF)_ And, if American highways received such devotion, they’d probably last much longer, too, except I’d hazard a guess that most American highways are travelled much more extensively and heavily, and to give them the same level of maintenance would mean (since there would be far more frequent ‘fissures and other defects’ found, due to the materials used) obstructing traffic even more than _now_, which is the complaint this thread started off being about. One might hope you would have noticed _that_ particular quoted sentence, since you seem to have remembered what it says about the construction materials: > [@](#): > > It says there the autobahn is paved with “freeze-resistant concrete or bitmuminous” which means “concrete and blacktop” that are subject to the same laws of physics as roads in Chicago . . . No, Nickrz, it means what it means – concrete and black top _specifically formulated to have special resistance to the effects of freezing_ – e.g., making the cement which binds the concrete from extremely fine particles (finer than those used in the cement commonly used in U.S. highways). Then, resorting as you usually do to mere sarcastic mockery, you said: > [@](#): > > There is no secret formula or magic blacktop that can stand up to mother nature or Consolidated Freightways for anything like 50 years. Which only _you_ sought to imply. Neither John nor I implied any kind of ‘secrecy’ or ‘magic’ was involved – just better engineering to begin with, supplemented by timely and thorough maintenance. But, perhaps in Europe road construction isn’t a matter of a job done by the lowest bidder on the job, or the biggest contributor to the governor’s election campaign. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 1999, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/32 "1999-09-18T05:23:00Z")
There are other considerations, such as taking the time to build a decent substrate to begin with. Ancient Roman engineers, for cripe’s sake, would spit on the half-assed job we make of it. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/33 "1999-09-17T20:51:00Z")
Jayron: Why doesn’t my Rand McNally road atlas show Interstates 99 (in Pennsylvania), 82 (Oregon), and 86 (New York)? Are these proposed roads? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279/34 "1999-09-17T23:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The German autobahn has lasted 50+ years without anything like the major reconstruction of most American highways. > [@](#): > > Crews inspect every meter of the system periodically, and when a fissure or other defect is found, **the entire road section is replaced.** (Emphasis mine-DIF) So what you’re saying is, a road will last 50+ years if you replace entire road sections at frequent intervals. Ok, that I’ll buy. But wait - maybe you meant they only have to replace sections that are over 50 years old? No… that doesn’t seem right. Let’s see now… how do we explain this paradox? European roads, according to you, last over 50 years. Yet the very example you cite, the Autobahn, needs entire sections replaced on a regular basis. Why is that? How do we explain the picture on the link I provided, showing one entire set of directional lanes closed, traffic diverted onto one side, while the roadway is replaced? That scene looks oh too familiar. Maybe that particular section was laid down in 1945, eh? It seems to me that if these roads were as good as you say, they would need _less_ inspection, maintenance and replacement, not more, but that does not seem to be the case. Why is that? It’s because your 50-year pave- job is a myth, a fallacy. You’re confusing a top-notch maintenance program, frequent inspection and replacement with the erroneous belief it’s the materials and the original construction techniques that are responsible for the outstanding condition of those roads. Furthermore, the suggestion that such roads would “cost much, much less” flies in the face of logic. I don’t have the figures, but I think it’s a safe bet autobahn construction and maintenance costs per mile are astronomically higher than for here in the States. You get what you pay for. Do you honestly think American politicians and voters are so short-sighted that were such a thing as cheaper roads that would last longer available, we would reject them and spend more dough on shittier roads because there’s an election around the corner? Or that any construction company which had access to such technology wouldn’t make it available in hopes of beating out the competition for those fat Federal highway construction/rebuilding funds? No… in your scenario, the wealthy construction magnate would rather spend wads of cash lining the politician’s pockets instead of taking advantage of cheaper technology to become… uh-oh. Low bidder. Yeah, that makes sense. Someone told you “European roads are designed and built to last 50 years before needing major repair” and you choose to believe they actually do. They don’t. Someone told John “50+ year roads can be easily built and cost much, much less.” They can’t and they wouldn’t. Those are the issues. It never ceases to amaze me how people who get called out repeating erroneous information and preaching unsupportable “facts” like to cry “foul” and then avoid the issue by pointing out that I’m a moderator - like that somehow prevents me from disagreeing with them or using plain language. If you’d like to stick to the issues, simply address me as a member - within the TOS, of course. (fixed quote tags - Nick) [Note: This message has been edited by Nickrz] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-road-construction/3279.md?page=1)