# What's up with Steorn's "Orbo" (free-energy perpetual-motion promises)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373 "2007-06-09T16:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/41 "2007-06-15T10:36:20Z")
I can’t find anything on their site now (they seem to discard, rather than archive stuff), but yes, they’ve claimed to have built working models and they’ve claimed to measure the efficiency at multiple hundreds of percent. It’s definitely, definitely a scam. There’s no possibility that they are honestly mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/42 "2007-06-15T12:24:09Z")
I still hold on to a fond and ridiculous hope that this is all part of The Lost Experience. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/43 "2007-06-15T12:38:08Z")
Another thing that just doesn’t hold true is that they’re not nearly excited enough about it. If they had what they say they had, they wouldn’t be plodding their way through long-winded and unnecessary evaluations by jury - they would either be shouting from the rooftops and giving the thing away to everyone, or they would be saying nothing and working very hard to scale up production and protect their future revenue. The whole laid-back "Oh, yeah, like we discovered this sort of cool free energy machine, y’know’ thing is _just another reason_ why this has to be bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/44 "2007-06-15T12:41:37Z")
Some useless and incomprehensible (yet fun) pictures and animations of Orbo in operation: [http://www.orbo.org.uk/](http://www.orbo.org.uk/) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/45 "2007-06-15T12:43:43Z")
This from the Wikipedia article is interesting: > [@Wikipedia Article on Steorn](#): > > In an attempt to lend further public validity to its claims, the company asked members of the forum discussing its claim to elect a representative for a visit. The user ‘Crank’ was democratically selected and her report on the visit[32] was widely reported and discussed in the forum. She confirmed that at least two of the Jury members (whom she selected at random) were high-ranking scientists. She also saw records implying that the financial state of the company was good. Finally, she was shown a video of the company manufacturing test rigs for Steorn on which one key worker (confirmed by examining their web site) reported enthusiastically on his confirmation of over-unity. Crank’s identity was confirmed by many forum members at a party thrown by Steorn for them on 27 November 2006 where she discussed her findings.[33] The makers of the documentary were filming at the party and interviewed forum and Steorn members. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/46 "2007-06-15T12:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=Dunawake] > [@toadspittle](#): > > Well, we’ll find out more next month; Steorn is supposed to do a public demo in London in July. What do you want to bet that it gets delayed? 😉 [/QUOTE] Or has a small battery hidden in the base, and when discovered, the promoters say, “The battery? Just ignore that; it’s helping the system over the top until we can work out a few bugs.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/47 "2007-06-15T12:57:08Z")
The first phase of jury validation (which apparently started in January and still is not finished… for some reason…) was supposed to certify that the machine has a “Coefficient of Performance greater than 1.” I thought that meant that the thing gives out more energy than it recieves, but after looking at the [Wikipedia page on Coefficient of Performance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance) it appears that’s not what it means.\* And notice that the “example” toward the bottom of the article seems to make it clear that a CoP \>1 is the norm, rather than the exception. -FrL- \*However I do not claim to have found the article particularly comprehensible on a three minute readthrough. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/48 "2007-06-15T13:11:40Z")
In good fun, here’s [someone offering a theory as to how the device _might_ work](http://www.madpages.com/fe/). It’s mostly a series of diagrams which fail to demonstrate much of anything. Then at the bottom of the page we have this passage: > [@](#): > > If we did an energy calculation on the above analysis, the full cycle would balance. However, this analyis does not account for the affects of magnetic viscosity. > > If we move slowly across the face of the large magnet, the domains in the large magnet will have time to adjust to the magnetic field of the small magnet. We will get larger forces in the X direction, but the repulsive forces in the Y direction also get smaller so we’ll have to pull the small magnet away sooner. > > What we need to do is move quickly across the face of the large magnet so the domains in the large magent do not have time to adjust to the magnetic field of the small magnet and we can collect the maximum amount of energy built up during the pause. which sounds to me as though it amounts to saying (to the extent that it says anything at all), “It doesn’t actually work, but maybe it will work if we jiggle it.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/49 "2007-06-15T13:30:34Z")
> [@](#): > > She confirmed that at least two of the Jury members (whom she selected at random) were high-ranking scientists. What the hell is a ‘Scientist’ anyway. You can’t get a degree in it. I doubt any job titles are ‘Scientist’. Beaker, the muppet is in a footlocker somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/50 "2007-06-15T13:40:09Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] which sounds to me as though it amounts to saying (to the extent that it says anything at all), “It doesn’t actually work, but maybe it will work if we jiggle it.” 😛 [/QUOTE] I agree - if you spend any time looking at these candidate free energy devices and magnet motors, one thing stands out - they all _almost work_ - they all just seem to have one tiny ‘sticking point’ that the inventor plays down as trivial and _just needs to tweak then it will work_. In truth, these devices are an exercise in making the fact that they stop, look trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/51 "2007-06-15T13:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] What the hell is a ‘Scientist’ anyway. You can’t get a degree in it. I doubt any job titles are ‘Scientist’. Beaker, the muppet is in a footlocker somewhere. [/QUOTE] FTR, the relevant portion from her report: > [@](#): > > We sat and talked in the room which held all the information on the scientists who’d applied - or at least the short-listed ones. I examined only two files in detail (because of the time constraint that I imagined). Those files contained the complete details on two of the scientists who have signed the contracts. I’ve researched both online since I came home, and they are as high up the ladder as you can get. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/52 "2007-06-17T03:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] What the hell is a ‘Scientist’ anyway. You can’t get a degree in it. I doubt any job titles are ‘Scientist’. Beaker, the muppet is in a footlocker somewhere. [/QUOTE] Actually, a lot of jobs are titled “Scientist” or “Senior Scientist” or some such thing. I’ve been to environmental engineering firms, for instance, who employed “Scientists.” I’m sure all of them would laugh at the “Orbo.” ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2007, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/53 "2007-06-17T09:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Actually, a lot of jobs are titled “Scientist” or “Senior Scientist” or some such thing. I’ve been to environmental engineering firms, for instance, who employed “Scientists.” I’m sure all of them would laugh at the “Orbo.” [/QUOTE] Our team has “Scientists” and “Senior Scientists.” As best as I can tell their job is to gather requirements, write responses for RFQ and take credit for the developers’ work. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/54 "2007-06-18T13:14:47Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The first phase of jury validation (which apparently started in January and still is not finished… for some reason…) was supposed to certify that the machine has a “Coefficient of Performance greater than 1.” I thought that meant that the thing gives out more energy than it recieves, but after looking at the [Wikipedia page on Coefficient of Performance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance) it appears that’s not what it means.\* And notice that the “example” toward the bottom of the article seems to make it clear that a CoP \>1 is the norm, rather than the exception. -FrL- \*However I do not claim to have found the article particularly comprehensible on a three minute readthrough. [/QUOTE] That page deals with heat pumps though. Heat pumps move heat (energy) around so you get more energy out than it costs to move the heat, but at the expense of cooling down your heat source. Steorn have explicitly stated that their device is not a heat pump. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/55 "2007-06-18T13:57:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Inspired by [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424044) thread on the “Oil Crash.” Wikipedia article [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn) Steorn website [here.](http://www.steorn.com/orbo/technology/) Possibilities: 1. They’ve actually got something. 2. It’s an elaborate fraud. But why? How can they make money out of it if they can never deliver the goods? You can fool a lot of investors . . . but only for so long. 3. They’ve actually got something, but their optimism about getting free energy out of it is unwarranted. What’s most likely? Any other possibilities? [/QUOTE] They have nothing, and I’m curious why it is generating any interest at all. If someone has a perpetual motion device, it can be demonstrated Right Now. There is no such thing as a future timeline or completion of development or anything else. If those things are in the equation, you don’t have a source of free energy–you have an idea of how you could get some. And an incompetent idea, at that. I’m just amazed at the interest in the possible underlying principles when only a fool would have any reaction except to say, “To make this claim, you must have already done testing and validation yourself. Let’s see what you’ve got.” This is either Performance Art, or Twits. Probably both. Any real investors will be warned they could lose some or all of their investment, and that the underlying principles (and principals) may turn out to be in error. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/56 "2007-06-18T14:17:06Z")
As I understand it, the company is in pretty shaky financial shape - maybe this is all just fluff to try to stave off bankruptcy by making themselves look interesting to speculative investors. I still think the guys in charge will find a way to issue themselves nice golden parachutes before what remains of the company shrugs and admits it doesn’t work, after all, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/57 "2007-06-19T02:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=glee] If so, why isn’t it already patented and details published for peer review? [/QUOTE] Okay, just to be clear: 1. I personally believe they are complete loons and/or scam artists. 2. I personally believe that they have _not_ invented a free energy device. 3. I personally believe that there can be no such thing as a free energy device. But. They can’t patent it because all of the big patent offices have stopped accepting applications for anything that is supposedly a perpetual motion device. So, if I’m wrong about 3 above and somebody does invent one at some point, they actually won’t be able to patent it (at least not at first - I assume that given an honest-to-goodness demonstation of it, the patent offices would eventually change their policy). As for the peer review, see 1 above. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/58 "2007-06-19T05:20:44Z")
Except you CAN patent a perpetual motion device, as long as you don’t call it a perpetual motion device and take pains not to claim it’s a perpetual motion device. So if they have some way of extracting energy from the Earth’s magnetic or gravitational field that’s not “perpetual motion” in the physics sense, it’s just a source of practically inexhaustable energy. For instance, you can extract energy from the Earth’s rotation…free energy! This is done by tidal energy generators…tides lift up the water, and we extract the energy when the tide is low. Free energy! Except this isn’t perpetual motion, because doing so slows down the Earth’s rotation by an itsy-weeny amount. So they would have no trouble patenting a device that generates energy when you wiggle magnets around, as long as they don’t call it “perpetual motion”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/59 "2007-06-19T09:34:44Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] So they would have no trouble patenting a device that generates energy when you wiggle magnets around, as long as they don’t call it “perpetual motion”. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s as simple as just not saying the magic words ‘perpetual motion’ - for example, the UK Patent Office says it won’t accept applications for: > [@](#): > > Processes or articles alleged to operate in a manner which is clearly contrary to well-established physical laws, such as perpetual motion machines, ([citation](http://www.ipo.gov.uk/practice-sec-004.pdf)) (emphasis mine) -which certainly applies to Steorn’s device. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373/60 "2007-06-19T09:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] They can’t patent it because all of the big patent offices have stopped accepting applications for anything that is supposedly a perpetual motion device. So, if I’m wrong about 3 above and somebody does invent one at some point, they actually won’t be able to patent it (at least not at first - I assume that given an honest-to-goodness demonstation of it, the patent offices would eventually change their policy). [/QUOTE] You (properly in my view) negative your own point here, though. [QUOTE=Mangetout] Elsewhere they have claimed 400% efficiency. Which makes me inclined to believe the whole thing is bullshit. [/QUOTE] If they can make bullshit, that’s great. Bullshit contains energy. You can burn it, ferment it… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-steorns-orbo-free-energy-perpetual-motion-promises/407373.md?page=4)