# What's up with the alveolar \[R\]? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 5, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078 "2015-01-05T23:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/1 "2015-01-05T23:32:13Z")
It seems that there’s an international trend of phasing the alveolar [r] out in favour of other forms of [r]. From my personal experience: - It used to be ubiquitous in Austria, but the younger generations prefer to imitate the German way of pronouncing it. - I hear that the above trend is also active in southern Sweden. - The Queen’s English used to have it, not long ago. Today, it’s considered overly posh to utter it. The current, internationally accepted R sound more like an A with some W mixed in, than anything else. - Greek tongues are getting increasingly lazy, and the trill has shortened so much during the past 20 years, that it sounds more like a T than a “proper” R. - I may be wrong here, but I have the impression that French also used to have an alveolar R a few centuries ago. My interpretation is that trilling with the tip of your tongue is such a hassle that other forms of R will be readily adopted when it becomes socially acceptable. Question 1: Are there any other languages where this is happening? Question 2: Has there ever been a recorded instance of the reverse phenomenon, namely that the alveolar R replaces another form of R? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/2 "2015-01-06T02:15:57Z")
Alveolar? Like those sacs in the lungs? Do you mean uvular, like a French R? ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/3 "2015-01-06T02:38:17Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Alveolar? Like those sacs in the lungs? Do you mean uvular, like a French R? No, different [alveoli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_consonant). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/4 "2015-01-06T05:40:45Z")
Do you mean the English/American alveolar approximant R, or the alveolar trilled R (like ‘rr’ in Spanish)? They’re both alveolar, but different sounds. The trilled R is very common in other languages, and I don’t think it’s going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/5 "2015-01-07T05:32:33Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Do you mean the English/American alveolar approximant R, or the alveolar trilled R (like ‘rr’ in Spanish)? They’re both alveolar, but different sounds. > > The trilled R is very common in other languages, and I don’t think it’s going anywhere. I mean the “Spanish” variety. What do you mean “it’s not going anywhere”? It has already disappeared from English, and is in the process of being phased out of German and a couple other languages. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/6 "2015-01-07T10:26:43Z")
> [@Apollon](#): > > I mean the “Spanish” variety. > What do you mean “it’s not going anywhere”? It has already disappeared from English, and is in the process of being phased out of German and a couple other languages. As Hector explained, there was never a trill in English, just a flap or tap. (Modern Spanish has both – usually, one “r” is a flap or tap, except at the start of some words, while “rr” is a trill). Clearly, the OP is asking about flaps and taps. It’s a good question. You do hear it in old French movies, and veddy proper British dramas, in the mouths of old people. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/7 "2015-01-07T13:57:24Z")
For the benefit of those who would like to know what you’re talking about, could you give a few examples? A quick google search resulted in “red”, which, last I checked, wasn’t going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-alveolar-r/709078/8 "2015-01-07T14:56:13Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > For the benefit of those who would like to know what you’re talking about, could you give a few examples? A quick google search resulted in “red”, which, last I checked, wasn’t going anywhere. Section 1.1 of [this thesis](http://www.academia.edu/1887202/Rhotics_and_Retroflexes_in_Indic_and_Dravidian) gives a good intro to the difficulties of classifying rhotics (“r-like sounds,” or perceived as such in a given language). The typical modern English “r” sound is pretty rare among languages. (Mandarin Chinese happens to have a similar sound). Much more common are taps and flaps. Veddy veddy common, I’d say. 😉 Retroflexes are less familiar to us, but millions of South Indians use them all day. Surely there has been an occasion when the English/Mandarin sound has evolved into a tap, flap, trill, of retroflex, but I’ll let others hunt down a documented example. Although, for unwritten languages especially, one would expect it more likely that an English/Mandarin r would instead evolve into another “liquid” (the “l” sound) or maybe “w.”