# What's up with the star of Bethlehem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 4, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412 "2015-12-04T15:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grigalem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@Grigalem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grigalem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/1 "2015-12-04T15:20:56Z")
\<\< Some say Leo (the lion) was associated astrologically with the house of Judah \>\> Only on Jesus websites. Ask a real Jew about Jewish astrology and you get a different answer: Judah = Aries. "One of the earliest, ancient Jewish texts called Sefer Yetzira correlates the zodiac signs with the months, tribes and 12 faculties as follows: The sign of [the month of] Nisan is Tleh/Aries/Ram, corresponding to Judah and the faculty of Speech. This is the month the Jews overcame the Egyptian deity of the ram. Judah means “thanks”, related to speech and on Passover of this month the Pascal lamb was offered and we recite the haggada." – The Zodiac by Rabbi Yirmiyahu Ullman [The Zodiac « Ask! « Ohr Somayach](http://ohr.edu/2394) and The Jewish Encyclopedia [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15277-zodiac](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15277-zodiac) ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/2 "2015-12-07T15:30:35Z")
The [column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1749/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem) reminds me of this story: [The Star](http://web.archive.org/web/20080718084442/http://lucis.net/stuff/clarke/star_clarke.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/3 "2015-12-07T16:57:04Z")
Of course, it’s not Jewish astrology we should be considering, since the Magi were not Jewish, but more likely Zoroastrian astrology. Anyone have any idea which sign they’d associate with which nation? Another problem is that even if we stipulate that Matthew was telling the story correctly as he knew it, his knowledge of the events would have been limited. The Magi were the only ones to follow the star, even though (short of an unexplainable miracle) they couldn’t actually see any more than any random shepherd (there were no telescopes or anything of the sort back then). That suggests that whatever they saw, it was something that needed scholarly interpretation, by someone learned in the techniques of astrology. But Matthew was not learned in astronomy, and was getting the story at absolute best second-hand from the magi, and more likely third-hand (I believe that the traditional answer is that he got most of his information from talking to Mary). So we’ve got a technical explanation as relayed to a non-technical writer, as relayed decades after the fact by someone completely uneducated, who was a teenager when it happened. So the challenge is really to figure out what technical explanation, when passed through that game of Telephone, would result in the explanation we have in Matthew. One suggestion I’ve read, for instance, is that the phrase “we saw the star at its rising in the East” should actually be translated as “we saw the star at its heliacal rising”, that is to say, when it first became separated enough from the Sun in the sky as to no longer be obscured by its glare. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/4 "2015-12-07T20:20:46Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > The [column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1749/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem) reminds me of this story: > > [The Star](http://web.archive.org/web/20080718084442/http://lucis.net/stuff/clarke/star_clarke.html) Just what I came in to post. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/5 "2015-12-07T20:30:05Z")
I’ve always been confused about “following the star in the East.” Presumably, following a star in the East means moving eastward, yet Bethlehem is only about 30 miles east of the Mediterranean coast. They wouldn’t have had to travel very far, but from the way the story is told, they traveled a great distance. What gives? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/6 "2015-12-07T20:35:35Z")
I believe the context is that _they_ were in the East, not the star. ---
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/7 "2015-12-08T03:02:48Z")
Matthew 2:2 “Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.” Looks to me like the star was seen in the eastern sky. As is often said here, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/8 "2015-12-08T03:16:31Z")
If I say I saw the Milky Way in Montana, does that mean that the entire Galaxy fit into a single state? Same thing for “in the East”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/9 "2015-12-08T03:21:38Z")
> [@jebert](#): > > Matthew 2:2 > > “Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.” > > Looks to me like the star was seen in the eastern sky. > > As is often said here, YMMV. Translates equally well as, “We were in the East when we saw the star.” Especially if you consider that the logical place to look for Magi was in Persia—_i.e.,_ present-day Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/10 "2015-12-09T05:50:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I believe the context is that _they_ were in the East, not the star. > [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Translates equally well as, “We were in the East when we saw the star.” Especially if you consider that the logical place to look for Magi was in Persia—_i.e.,_ present-day Iran. Yep, that’s how I’ve always understood it - they were in the East, saw the star and followed it. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/11 "2015-12-09T17:38:53Z")
One thing to consider: The entire story was made up. The Latin word _magi_ comes from the Greek _magos_ which is from the name of the priestly cast in Zoroastrianism. These people were astrologers. If you look at it this way, you’ll understand why no one else seemed to have noticed this amazing star – not even the king and his court. Only those versed in the highest levels of the sacred art of astrology would have known. It’s not unusual for legends to have stars to predict the birth of famous people. Kim Jong-Il, the previous president of the People’s Democratic Republic of Korea had his birth not only heralded by a special star, but also by a double rainbow. Take that Jesus! You’ve been one upped. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/12 "2015-12-09T20:19:40Z")
A double rainbow? That’s the best he can do? By that measure, there have been dozens of future presidents of North Korea born in Bozeman, MT in the last decade. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/13 "2015-12-10T14:30:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A double rainbow? That’s the best he can do? By that measure, there have been dozens of future presidents of North Korea born in Bozeman, MT in the last decade. Little known fact: According to North Korea’s website, Kim Jong-Il invented Bozeman Montana. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/14 "2015-12-29T23:11:19Z")
[Quote=the column] There are two ways to approach the story of the star: 1. It was an actual astronomical event. 2. It is a purely symbolic story. [/quote] I disagree with #1. It should be: 1. It was a miraculous event created by God, which defies any scientific analysis. Reason: I am prepared to consider the \*possibility \*that God exists, and that He sometimes sends miracles. I find it much harder to believe in astrology. I therefore reject any suggestion that a natural phenomenon accurately foretold the coming of a major figure in World history. Miracle, maybe. Fiction, maybe. Comet, nova or conjunction, certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/16 "2015-12-30T13:52:47Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I disagree with #1. It should be: > > 1. It was a miraculous event created by God, which defies any scientific analysis. > > Reason: I am prepared to consider the _possibility that God exists, and that He sometimes sends miracles. I find it much harder to believe in astrology._ I therefore reject any suggestion that a natural phenomenon accurately foretold the coming of a major figure in World history. \*\*Miracle, maybe. Fiction, maybe. Comet, nova or conjunction, certainly not. Why? The story was written long after Jesus’ death. Any astrologer with the benefit of hindsight could make all sorts of correct “predictions” about, say, Napoleon or Hitler based on their horoscopes! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/17 "2015-12-30T14:25:18Z")
That would be #2, a symbolic story. A fiction. Something that didn’t really happen. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/18 "2015-12-30T14:59:27Z")
More or less notable celestial phenomena, like eclipses, conjunctions, comets and novae _do_ occur now and then though. As nobody around AD 100 or so would have been likely to know even the exact year of Jesus’ birth, it wouldn’t have been too hard to point out one such occurence at about the right time as “the sign of Messiah’s coming”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/19 "2015-12-30T15:25:04Z")
You think you’re contradicting me, but really you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/20 "2015-12-30T15:44:51Z")
Well, your claim was: > [@](#): > > Miracle, maybe. Fiction, maybe.\*\* Comet, nova or conjunction, certainly not.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412/21 "2015-12-30T17:49:49Z")
But then, there are different sorts of miracles, too. As an example, one miracle attributed to Jesus, and one which the Gospels regard as one of the more impressive ones, was causing a storm to calm on his command. Now, storms really do sometimes just end suddenly-- That’s not miraculous. The miraculous part is that it happened right when Jesus wanted it to happen. Similarly, one might suppose that God miraculously caused a star to appear in the Middle Eastern sky, and that he did so by arranging for a comet or supernova or whatever to occur right then. The fact of the comet itself might not be miraculous, but its timing still might be. But in any event, you’re right that we should _also_ consider the possibility that it was an entirely miraculous event, completely unrelated to any natural astronomical phenomenon. That’s a possibility that the column didn’t mention. Of course, there’s not much more one can do with such a possibility beyond mentioning it, since by definition it would defy any further explanation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-star-of-bethlehem/739412.md?page=2)