# What's up with the "Swedistan" meme? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711 "2015-09-02T15:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/41 "2015-09-02T20:39:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The OP is a caricature of a caricature. Anti-immigrant activists exaggerate the negatives associated with immigration and those exaggerations are then strawmanned. The facts are that Sweden is taking alot of immigrants in and not assimilating them well. Sweden has 2% of the population of the EU and granted 20% of the asylum approvals in the EU. They spend 3 billion dollars a year processing and settling asylum seekers. Sweden has historically been a homogeneous country with little immigration. In 1900 less than 1% of the country was foreign born. Now 16% of the country’s population are immigrants. Not surprisingly they are having a hard time integrating the immigrants into their economy and society. Immigrants earn 40 percent of what native Swedes do, are 30% less likely to work, are 51% of the long term unemployed and 57% of welfare recipients. > Such a large influx of immigrants can not help but change the social fabric of a place. For instance there was a riot in Sweden a couple years ago. The homicide rate in Malmo, the city where many immigrants have settled, is three times what the rest of Sweden has. The scores on international tests have been declining for Swedish students. > Sweden is not turning into Swedistan, but it has imported alot of people who are doing poorly economically and that is changing the country. I think that is pretty much what I said… Regarding Malmö it’s true that it is the “murder capital of Sweden” but that seems to be connected to organized crime, not muslims. And this might be a bit brutal but it’s pretty much always criminals killing other criminals. I’ve lived there (and I am actually going there tomorrow) and I’ve never felt unsafe there. In fact it’s probably my favorite city in Sweden, mainly because it has such a continental culture. Best falafel in Sweden and easy to get good weed (not all criminals are bad…). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/42 "2015-09-02T20:43:07Z")
It’s interesting that Sweden has been studying the immigration policies in Canada to see what they can do better: > **[WATCH: Why Sweden is studying Canada’s immigration system - National |...](https://globalnews.ca/news/2049561/video-why-sweden-is-studying-canadas-immigration-system/)** > > A Swedish delegation is visiting Canada to learn about our immigration system. We asked what they found out. > **[Sweden's big immigration idea: the 'Canada model'](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/swedens-big-immigration-idea-the-canada-model/article618559/)** > > A pair of Swedish authors says their government should take its cue from Canada's immigration policies - but Canadian academics aren't convinced I think Canada probably has higher immigration numbers overall, but one thing that’s clear from that first link is that Sweden admits a disproportionate number of refugees, whereas Canada has a higher proportion of “economic migrants” – educated and job-qualified individuals. Possibly for this reason, at least in part, there is a higher degree of integration in Canada, which I think is one of the concerns in Sweden. Although the refugee numbers here are still pretty damn high. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/43 "2015-09-02T20:48:20Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I think that is pretty much what I said… > > Regarding Malmö it’s true that it is the “murder capital of Sweden” but that seems to be connected to organized crime, not muslims. And this might be a bit brutal but it’s pretty much always criminals killing other criminals. I’ve lived there (and I am actually going there tomorrow) and I’ve never felt unsafe there. In fact it’s probably my favorite city in Sweden, mainly because it has such a continental culture. Best falafel in Sweden and easy to get good weed (not all criminals are bad…). 😉 Perhaps you now understand why Americans are perplexed when you say you would not feel safe here. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/44 "2015-09-02T21:00:12Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s interesting that Sweden has been studying the immigration policies in Canada to see what they can do better: > [WATCH: Why Sweden is studying Canada’s immigration system - National | Globalnews.ca](http://globalnews.ca/news/2049561/video-why-sweden-is-studying-canadas-immigration-system/) > [Sweden's big immigration idea: the 'Canada model' - The Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/swedens-big-immigration-idea-the-canada-model/article618559/) > > I think Canada probably has higher immigration numbers overall, but one thing that’s clear from that first link is that Sweden admits a disproportionate number of refugees, whereas Canada has a higher proportion of “economic migrants” – educated and job-qualified individuals. Possibly for this reason, at least in part, there is a higher degree of integration in Canada, which I think is one of the concerns in Sweden. Although the refugee numbers here are still pretty damn high. This was actually on the agenda back when I was working the issue politically. Our analysis was pretty much that Canada was “cherry picking” people who were healthy and had high levels of education, whereas we were targeting the opposite side of the spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/45 "2015-09-02T21:08:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you now understand why Americans are perplexed when you say you would not feel safe here. Not really. I find the culture in Malmö to be excellent as a whole, and the problem with violent crime being contained to in-fighting between criminals. And the “murder Capital of Sweden” still has a much lower murder rate than the US average, so statistically I’m safer there than in the US even if I don’t take into account the fact that the violence is criminal-on-criminal. The reason I wouldn’t feel safe in the US is not only because of the high murder and violence rate though, it’s because I feel it is a very macho and aggressive culture without a social safety net. I’m not a very macho guy and I am a pacifist, I don’t feel comfortable around that sort of people. Also the idea that I would not have access to adequate health care if I get sick or get into an accident would be very worrying, I like having a safety net. Not trying to diss you here but I think you agree that the US is not a good match for effeminate and sensitive euros. You’d think I’m a fag/pussy and I’d think you’re a brute. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/46 "2015-09-02T21:08:16Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The meme says that murder and rape is now rampant in Sweden, but the statistics say that Sweden murder rate is way, way lower than almost all other countries in the world. For people whose world-view is organized around the idea that OTHER PEOPLE are bad, a little thing like “well established statistical evidence that they’re totally fucking incorrect” won’t matter at all. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/47 "2015-09-02T21:40:08Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Currently about 5% of Sweden’s population say they believe in Islam. I think it is safe to assume that most of these people are not radical or interested in some sort of take-over, most are just regular people who want to live regular lives. They’re also very diverse, ranging from Iraqi lawyers to unemployed Somalis (yes that is stereotype) and are not united by a common language or even a common religion since Islam itself houses many different sects. But for the sake of argument we can treat these 5% as a single unit with a common agenda. > > Over the last few years we’ve accepted 40-90.000 people per year, but let’s increase this to an even 100.000 to help the case of those who are afraid of mass immigration. > > If we now fast forward ten years with this higher-than-actual rate of immigration AND assume that they are all muslims (which they are not) we would end up with an extra million muslims in Sweden. Assuming Sweden’s native population doesn’t grow in the mean time, the muslim population as a percentage of the total would be 14%. > > Most of this group will not have voter rights in national elections and are quite honestly the victims of a lot of structural racism. They are less likely to be employed and less likely to be elected to anything. Exactly HOW are they going to take us over? How is 14% of the population in a democracy, where about half doesn’t even have voter rights going to ”take over” or ruin our society? > > You can make a case that they are a burden on the welfare state and that is generally speaking true. A majority of refugees are not employed and thus have to use the social security system to survive. This causes financial problems for the cities that they reside in (since social security is a municipal obligation) which means there will be less funding for schools and elderly care (which make up about 80-85% of most cities budget). That’s a problem. It will likely lead to a decrease in quality in education and elderly care, but once again, that is not the same as the collapse of our society. > > So in your mind, exactly how will this group of people go about destroying our society? Please be concrete. I think you’re suffering from a eurocentric bias – namely, thinking that democracy is the only means to change society. Most immigrants (in fact, probably almost all) to Sweden do not come from democratic polities, and thus are fine with changing society via non-democratic means, such as violence. I don’t particularly think that Sweden is headed for collapse, unless something highly unlikely like a race war breaks out. Rather, it is far more likely that Sweden will suffer a gradual decline from a first world country to a third world country as the proportion of immigrants increases. And this destruction does not have to be intentional – good natured immigrants, who want to see Sweden succeed but are unable to contribute to society, may be the decisive blow. Your analysis, while interesting, fails to account for the higher than average birthrates among Middle Eastern immigrants, who tend to have very large families. This means that the Muslim population of Sweden will likely outstrip your estimate. You seem to agree that immigrants are on average worse than Swedes in a number of life categories, such as employment, educational achievement, welfare use, etc. However, I think we differ in that you expect this situation to improve in the future, while I do not. As a genetic hereditarian, I believe that genes strongly determine life outcomes, and as such integration, education, and welfare are unlikely to change the long-term outcomes of non-Whites (excluding Asians). For what it’s worth, there really isn’t any country where blacks, arabs, or hispanics have as good life outcomes as white people. This indicates that even if genes play no role in life outcomes, the effects of pervasive racism and cultural factors still presents an insurmountable barrier to full racial equality. And for Sweden’s immigration experiment to succeed, they really need for immigrants to do about as well as ethnic Swedes. I don’t like those odds, but then again I don’t live in Sweden. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > The reason I wouldn’t feel safe in the US is not only because of the high murder and violence rate though, it’s because I feel it is a very macho and aggressive culture without a social safety net. I’m not a very macho guy and I am a pacifist, I don’t feel comfortable around that sort of people. Also the idea that I would not have access to adequate health care if I get sick or get into an accident would be very worrying, I like having a safety net. Not trying to diss you here but I think you agree that the US is not a good match for effeminate and sensitive euros. You’d think I’m a fag/pussy and I’d think you’re a brute. 😉 I don’t know if you’ve visited the US, but I think you’re attributing a far more uniform monoculture to the US than in reality. The differences between someone in NYC and someone in New Orleans are significant, and there are often significant differences in temperament based on income and race as well. The stereotype of Americans, which you seem to be buying into, is that we are all ultra-aggressive gun nuts who settle disputes by sneering, flexing our muscles, and the size of our firearms. That just isn’t true. Any major or minor city in the US will have a significant number of non-agressive men who are just as cosmopolitan and sensitive as you. You should come visit. Also, firearms are a ton of fun. And a lot of gun ranges will let you rent automatic weapons. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, the far right includes the Christian right, which should be anti-racist at least in theory. Christianity is certainly an impediment to far right beliefs. But it’s possible to believe in racial differences while recognizing an imperative to care for all people. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/48 "2015-09-02T21:44:44Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > 1. Sweden’s rape statistics, on the other hand, are extremely high per-capita. And events like Rotterham do not inspire confidence that the police are accurately recording immigrant crimes. Sweden has both more political correctness and more Muslim immigrants than did Britain, so right-wingers assume that Sweden has problems comparable or worse than Rotterham. Is this an apples to apples comparison? As in does Sweden have a broader definition of rape or sexual assault than whichever unnamed countries you are comparing it to? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/49 "2015-09-02T22:25:01Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The reason I wouldn’t feel safe in the US is not only because of the high murder and violence rate though, it’s because I feel it is a very macho and aggressive culture without a social safety net. I’m not a very macho guy and I am a pacifist, I don’t feel comfortable around that sort of people. Also the idea that I would not have access to adequate health care if I get sick or get into an accident would be very worrying, I like having a safety net. Not trying to diss you here but I think you agree that the US is not a good match for effeminate and sensitive euros. You’d think I’m a fag/pussy and I’d think you’re a brute. 😉 Look on the positive side: you can buy all the guns you want. You can walk down the street bristling with guns like the quills on the fretful porpentine. You can walk down the street [like these guys](http://i.huffpost.com/gen/937991/images/o-ASSAULT-RIFLE-STROLL-facebook.jpg), or [these](http://i1.wp.com/www.politicususa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/open-carry-texas.jpg). And if you get shot at, the NRA says a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun, so just shoot back! How could you not feel safe? 😛 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you now understand why Americans are perplexed when you say you would not feel safe here. As you pointed out once yourself, America is a very big place and different parts of it are radically different in many ways. Bill Maher got flak the other night for commenting on the issue when he himself lives in a patrolled gated community in Beverly Hills; on the other hand, in some Chicago communities young children are being gunned down by stray bullets. In fact different parts of a single city are radically different with regard to things like safety, and even further, the same can apply to [even a single neighborhood](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/09/how-bad-is-violence-in-chicago-depends-on-your-race/280019/). It’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/50 "2015-09-02T22:28:45Z")
Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion but the Swedistan meme refers most pointedly to the fact that Sweden (and other homogenous-white European nations) are allowing in large numbers of muslim immigrants and there is concern whether these immigrants are coming to “melt” into European cultural norms or simply wish to maintain their prior cultural norms in a new landscape. In America, the quest to get here literally involves traversing an ocean. Immigrants come to America and assimilate rather quickly, while retaining a few key elements of their prior heritage. In Europe, muslim immigrants are retaining “too much” of their heritage, such that there is cultural conflict and unease. White-guilt liberals of the European variety don’t believe they should impose their cultural norms on these new visitors, but even they are slowly turning bitter that these immigrants don’t want to assimilate. “Far-right” political parties that are resistant to muslim immigration aren’t just a composite of neonazis. Many rational folks see what is happening and are rightfully concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/51 "2015-09-02T22:30:24Z")
I haven’t encountered the thing the OP mentioned on the boards or anywhere else, recently. However, several years ago, I played MMOs in the European shards and almost everyone I met was Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, or Icelandic. It was mostly the Norwegians, but some Swedes too, that were pretty openly complaining about a greater rate of crime, how that was certainly due to incoming Muslims, and (at least one person) advocated Islamic genocide to me and I had to walk him through why genocide isn’t really a very good method of saving the world. I did graph out the crime rate and the immigration rate for Sweden once, a few years ago: [![](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mbcvop7xuzs6nux/immigration-crime.png?dl=0) ](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mbcvop7xuzs6nux/immigration-crime.png?dl=0) At least from 1984 on, there does seem to be a correlation. However, the fact that when immigration goes down, the crime goes down, would seem to imply that people are either quickly giving up their life of crime, getting kicked out of the country, or getting jailed. It’s very strange. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/52 "2015-09-02T22:30:28Z")
Well, “Wallander” was pretty scary… And what’s happened to Saab? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/53 "2015-09-02T22:38:32Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion but the Swedistan meme refers most pointedly to the fact that Sweden (and other homogenous-white European nations) are allowing in large numbers of muslim immigrants and there is concern whether these immigrants are coming to “melt” into European cultural norms or simply wish to maintain their prior cultural norms in a new landscape. So? An unassimilated minority would not make Sweden into Swedistan. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/54 "2015-09-02T22:40:50Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I did graph out the crime rate and the immigration rate for Sweden once, a few years ago: > > [Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life](https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbcvop7xuzs6nux/immigration-crime.png?dl=0) > . You wouldn’t happen to still have the dataset, would you? I’d love to run a regression. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/55 "2015-09-02T22:45:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I haven’t encountered the thing the OP mentioned on the boards or anywhere else, recently. However, several years ago, I played MMOs in the European shards and almost everyone I met was Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, or Icelandic. > > It was mostly the Norwegians, but some Swedes too, that were pretty openly complaining about a greater rate of crime, how that was certainly due to incoming Muslims, and (at least one person) advocated Islamic genocide to me and I had to walk him through why genocide isn’t really a very good method of saving the world. > > I did graph out the crime rate and the immigration rate for Sweden once, a few years ago: > > [Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life](https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbcvop7xuzs6nux/immigration-crime.png?dl=0) > > At least from 1984 on, there does seem to be a correlation. However, the fact that when immigration goes down, the crime goes down, would seem to imply that people are either quickly giving up their life of crime, getting kicked out of the country, or getting jailed. It’s very strange. I feel really odd, for me, to be defending a religion but technically wouldn’t it be - poor - Muslims driving up the crime rate? ie, an economic and not religious factor… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/56 "2015-09-02T22:46:03Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Thanks for the description. I’d like to point out that Sweden is not ”liberal” in general though, it’s been mainly social democratic. In Sweden the liberals are considered to be part of the right wing. In the U.S., where the political center is slightly to the right of Genghis Khan, everything evil (from the perspective of the Political Right) is called “liberal.” (Do a search on posts by the SDMB poster **Starving Artist** for various examples.) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/57 "2015-09-02T22:53:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In the U.S., where the political center is slightly to the right of Genghis Khan, everything evil (from the perspective of the Political Right) is called “liberal.” (Do a search on posts by the SDMB poster **Starving Artist** for various examples.) lol i agree! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/58 "2015-09-02T22:56:52Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > You wouldn’t happen to still have the dataset, would you? I’d love to run a regression. No, you’d have to look it up again. I may have copied and pasted from a webpage into GeoGebra directly, for all I know. It was several years ago. And of course the vertical values are for completely different metrics, so I had do some funky stuff to get them to sit near one another and have a similar vertical distribution, but there was no other distortion applied than that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/59 "2015-09-02T22:58:54Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion but the Swedistan meme refers most pointedly to the fact that Sweden (and other homogenous-white European nations) are allowing in large numbers of muslim immigrants and there is concern whether these immigrants are coming to “melt” into European cultural norms or simply wish to maintain their prior cultural norms in a new landscape. What less than honest discussion have you seen in this thread? And your depiction of the Swedistan name pretty well matches the claims made in this thread. We recognize that certain elements on the Far Right are fearful that not enough melting is going on. We also recognize that the same “fear” is exhibited toward all immigrants in all times and that it appears to have no more basis in fact in Sweden than it did in New York in 1900, or, frankly, in Los Angeles in 2015. Recent immigrants always appear to (various members of the established society) as “refusing to assimilate,” yet actual studies of actual immigration have demonstrated that immigrants do choose to assimilate. It may take ten years when the established groups want it to occur in ten days, but it has always occurred and it is still occurring. We have had the “[they won’t assimilate in Sweden](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18393102#post18393102)” discussion on this board, previously. (Note which side provides actual data.) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/60 "2015-09-02T23:03:21Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion but the Swedistan meme refers most pointedly to the fact that Sweden (and other homogenous-white European nations) are allowing in large numbers of muslim immigrants and there is concern whether these immigrants are coming to “melt” into European cultural norms or simply wish to maintain their prior cultural norms in a new landscape. > > In America, the quest to get here literally involves traversing an ocean. Immigrants come to America and assimilate rather quickly, while retaining a few key elements of their prior heritage. In Europe, muslim immigrants are retaining “too much” of their heritage, such that there is cultural conflict and unease. White-guilt liberals of the European variety don’t believe they should impose their cultural norms on these new visitors, but even they are slowly turning bitter that these immigrants don’t want to assimilate. “Far-right” political parties that are resistant to muslim immigration aren’t just a composite of neonazis. Many rational folks see what is happening and are rightfully concerned. The problems that are occurring, such as they are, are primarily due to the fact that a large proportion of the immigrants are _refugees_ – meaning that they’re not screened for education and job qualifications and so tend to be lacking in those areas. What does being Muslim have to do with anything? How does it enter in to this “honest discussion” you say you want to have? > [@tomndebb](#): > > In the U.S., where the political center is slightly to the right of Genghis Khan, everything evil (from the perspective of the Political Right) is called “liberal.” “Slightly”? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=4)