# What's up with the "Swedistan" meme? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711 "2015-09-02T15:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/61 "2015-09-02T23:18:32Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Your analysis, while interesting, fails to account for the higher than average birthrates among Middle Eastern immigrants, who tend to have very large families. This means that the Muslim population of Sweden will likely outstrip your estimate. :rolleyes: This is silly. Birth rates do not correspond to ethnicity or religion. Birth rates correspond to education and wealth. (That is why the regions of India in which the tech revolution has prospered have birth rates as low as North America.) As the immigrants become established and gain wealth, their birth rate will drop, as it already has in Germany and France. We hear the same sort of utter nonsense from American racists claiming that the black community is going to “out breed” and “overwhelm” white society. That is only a figment of the imagination of the idiot editors of VDARE or of Andrew Macdonald/William Luther Pierce. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/62 "2015-09-03T00:09:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, you’d have to look it up again. I may have copied and pasted from a webpage into GeoGebra directly, for all I know. It was several years ago. > > And of course the vertical values are for completely different metrics, so I had do some funky stuff to get them to sit near one another and have a similar vertical distribution, but there was no other distortion applied than that. Alright, thanks. I think I will try to look it up. > [@tomndebb](#): > > :rolleyes: > This is silly. > > Birth rates do not correspond to ethnicity or religion. > Birth rates correspond to education and wealth. > (That is why the regions of India in which the tech revolution has prospered have birth rates as low as North America.) > As the immigrants become established and gain wealth, their birth rate will drop, as it already has in Germany and France. Do you have an actual source for that? I’m inclined to believe you, but I’d like to look at actual data if you have it. But even if birthrates correlate to poverty, that still isn’t relevant because poverty still correlates with religion and ethnicity. It’s been mentioned in this thread that immigrants have low incomes, high use of welfare, and low educational attainment for their children. In pretty much no nation in the world have blacks attained economic parity with whites, and it probably won’t happen in Sweden either. Thus, Swedes will be outbreed by Muslims who live in their country. > [@tomndebb](#): > > We hear the same sort of utter nonsense from American racists claiming that the black community is going to “out breed” and “overwhelm” white society. That is only a figment of the imagination of the idiot editors of VDARE or of Andrew Macdonald/William Luther Pierce. This may have been the rhetoric of the past, but it isn’t relevant today. Planned Parenthood and mass incarceration have kept the black population at around ~10% of the total population for decades. That’s not going to change. Rather, the threat of demographic displacement stems from Hispanic immigration. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/63 "2015-09-03T00:52:19Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It’s been mentioned in this thread that immigrants have low incomes, high use of welfare, and low educational attainment for their children. In pretty much no nation in the world have blacks attained economic parity with whites, and it probably won’t happen in Sweden either. Thus, Swedes will be outbreed by Muslims who live in their country. 1. “Muslim” doesn’t mean “Black.” The rather vast majority of Muslims aren’t black, especially those who move to Sweden. 2. The largest group of immigrants in Sweden are Finns. 3. One of the other largest groups is Iranians, who actually are LIKELIER to attend post-secondary education than native Swedes. Seriously, that’s what I found with about 90 seconds of searching. Your arguments are very easily pulled apart. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/64 "2015-09-03T00:57:41Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Alright, thanks. I think I will try to look it up. > > Do you have an actual source for that? I’m inclined to believe you, but I’d like to look at actual data if you have it. My tablet that had the downloaded info is not working. I will post it when I can. In the meantime, I have a link to a [Pew discussion](http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/01/27/will-pew-muslim-birth-rate-study-finally-silence-the-eurabia-claim/) debunking the "Eurabia’ fraud, pointing to declining birth rates. (The same Pew study was dishonestly manipulated on an Islam hate site to artificially multiply the Muslim figures.) > [@Construct](#): > > But even if birthrates correlate to poverty, that still isn’t relevant because poverty still correlates with religion and ethnicity. It only correlates if the established community actively holds down the immigrants. In most societies, the immigrants move out of poverty fairly quickly. (Not quick enough for the xenophobes, of course, who would prefer to keep them in poverty so that they can be condemned.) And, as the Pew studied showed, Muslim birth rates are declining across the world as poverty declines. > [@Construct](#): > > This may have been the rhetoric of the past, but it isn’t relevant today. Planned Parenthood and mass incarceration have kept the black population at around ~10% of the total population for decades. That’s not going to change. Rather, the threat of demographic displacement stems from Hispanic immigration. Black birth rates have fallen as most of that population has moved into the middle class. Rates among the poorest remain high. Treating the black population as though the entire group is still trapped in the slums is just one more way to avoid examining facts. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/65 "2015-09-03T01:05:51Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Planned Parenthood and mass incarceration have kept the black population at around ~10% of the total population for decades. That’s not going to change. Rather, the threat of demographic displacement stems from Hispanic immigration. It’s good to know that the darkies are under control and now you’re watching out for the Hispanic threat. But what about the Jews? Or are they acceptable now? I can never keep track of who I’m supposed to be hating. Are there websites out there that provide guidance on that kind of thing? ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/66 "2015-09-03T01:38:43Z")
I think OP answered their own question, basically it is meant to highlight that Sweden has been “overtaken” by Muslims. Similar to how some referred to London as Londonistan. Meaning any place with large numbers of Muslims, particularly from the Middle East and North Africa, is nicknamed with a “stan” at the end. Funny because no Arab nation’s name in the English language, ends with “stan”. Stan means “land of X people”. The meme was created by right wing, neo Nazis who despite the horrible images of people drowning at sea, trumpet their racist views. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/67 "2015-09-03T04:21:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? An unassimilated minority would not make Sweden into Swedistan. Nor does its presence have any downsides apart from those **Stoneburg** already has mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![NineLineMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9e8a1a/32.png) [@NineLineMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineLineMan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/68 "2015-09-03T04:23:37Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > To me there seem to be certain problems with this meme. Just to mention a few… > > 1. It’s so incredibly easy to debunk. All statistics, both local and international, show that Sweden simply does not have a high crime rate. The murder rate in Sweden for example is 0.7 compared to the US with 4.7 or Canada with 1.6 this is obviously very low. If Sweden is being over run with murderers, why is the murder rate less than half that of Canada and just a fraction of the US? It \*would \*be easy for murder. There’s fewer than 100 murders per year and the identities of convicted murderers is public information - even if you just look at how many have names that sound non-scandinavian, you would get a rough idea. The problem is that neither side is interested in debunking any myths. The pro-immigration side won’t publish statistics because immigrants \*are \*over-represented. The anti-immigration side won’t because they’re not as over-represented as they claim. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. If Sweden is being invaded or whatever by violent rapists, why isn’t the Swedish free press reporting it? Why aren’t Swedish _citizens_ reacting? Doesn’t it seem weird that people on the other side of the world is freaking out about this and at the same time people who actually live in Sweden are cool with it? Shouldn’t that be a hint? Or did the sneaky (but obviously completely uneducated and ignorant) murder-rapists somehow managing to… I don’t know, hypnotize us or use some voodoo magic so that we don’t notice what is going on? > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. The only way to get the information is to visit sites that are… you know… nazis. Now even for the very far right in the US it would seem that associating with… you know…nazis, would not seem palatable. Usually when I see nazi references in the US from the right, it’s used as a very derogatory term, so how come these guys are now considered a reliable source of information? The problem is not just that the fringe is considered reliable, it’s that the “real” news is considered UNreliable. A big news story this year was a gang rape on a ferry, reported in the media as “8 Swedish men gang rape woman”. The anti-immigration news pointed out that they were all Somali, none with Swedish citizenship. No corrections were published, no “our bad, that was misleading so we’ll put a note on the story on our website”. It’s still there as “8 Swedish men”. So who do you believe - the story with the incorrect information or the fringe news? It’s like the US right wing complaining about the “mainstream media” but with uncomfortably solid examples. Next time you see a violent crime story on the TV news, you pop over to the fringe site. If the offender was named Sven Nilsson it likely wouldn’t make the fringe news at all so you’d never know, but if it’s Mohammad it would definitely be there. Welcome to confirmation bias. Now every time you read a mainstream news story about a violent crime, either it doesn’t mention ethnicity - which means the offender must be immigrant - or says they’re Swedish - which means “Swedish” which means probably an immigrant. Awesome. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. Who the fuck cares about Sweden? We’re a tiny, weird country in the northern outskirt of Europe with a very small population. Why not pick… you know… France or something. Picking one of the most peaceful and non-violent countries in the world and trying to paint them as a seething pit of hellfire, rape and murder just seems really stupid. Because Sweden is NOT weird, it is decidedly bland and normal. A peaceful baseline means a violent spike will be more promiment. You can also add a dash of “If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.” Swedish people are reacting, and now 15-20% of the vote in every opinion poll goes to the suit-nazis. By the next election, they could well be the biggest political party in the country. Most of that could be easily avoided with more open dialogue and providing actual statistics, instead of covering thing up if they don’t suit your political agenda. When a child says they’re afraid of monsters under the bed, you don’t ridicule them and call them names. The fear is real and needs to be dealt with. > [@Construct](#): > > Alright, thanks. I think I will try to look it up. > > Do you have an actual source for that? I’m inclined to believe you, but I’d like to look at actual data if you have it. > > But even if birthrates correlate to poverty, that still isn’t relevant because poverty still correlates with religion and ethnicity. While linking to videos for information is less than ideal - I have never seen a better visualisation of birthrate/religion/poverty statistics than Hans Rosling’s videos. It’s about 2-3 minutes from this starting point, but the whole thing is good viewing. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ezVk1ahRF78/maxresdefault.jpg "Religions and babies | Hans Rosling") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVk1ahRF78&t=161) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/69 "2015-09-03T04:55:51Z")
> [@NineLineMan](#): > > Because Sweden is NOT weird, it is decidedly bland and normal. Sweden is NOT normal. Ain’t you ever seen _The Seventh Seal?!_ ---
**Author:** ![NineLineMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9e8a1a/32.png) [@NineLineMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineLineMan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/70 "2015-09-03T05:57:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sweden is NOT normal. Ain’t you ever seen _The Seventh Seal?!_ I did see it, a charming tale of two people chatting over a friendly board game. It ends with everyone dancing. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/71 "2015-09-03T07:11:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > However, the fact that when immigration goes down, the crime goes down, would seem to imply that people are either quickly giving up their life of crime, getting kicked out of the country, or getting jailed. It’s very strange. Immigrants anywhere tend, on the whole, to be young. Crime rates tend to be correlated to the proportion of young men in any community. On the other hand, in the longer run, prosperity and social well-being also depend on maintaining a balance of age groups. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/72 "2015-09-03T07:35:12Z")
Perhaps the rise of the “Far” Right in Sweden gives people the impression that Swedes are having a backlash against immigrants, mainly muslim ones. The rise of the Sweden Democrats must be a sympton of _something_. Im willing to admit its rise in the polls may have more than immigration as its cause, but a reaction to immigration is surely one of its main causes. ---
**Author:** ![NineLineMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9e8a1a/32.png) [@NineLineMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineLineMan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/73 "2015-09-03T08:57:55Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Perhaps the rise of the “Far” Right in Sweden gives people the impression that Swedes are having a backlash against immigrants, mainly muslim ones. The rise of the Sweden Democrats must be a sympton of _something_. Im willing to admit its rise in the polls may have more than immigration as its cause, but a reaction to immigration is surely one of its main causes. It’s a one-issue political party. I don’t think the average person would know any of their positions that’s not fundamentally ‘foreigners bad’. They’re against the European Union - and not many parties are - so theoretically there might be some who would support them on that basis without it being rooted in xenophobia. They are the rightmost party in Sweden. Their other stances are fairly standard right-wing; - Lower taxes - Lessen employee rights - Tough on crime. - Anti-gay - Anti-abortion All by Swedish standards, so it’s not nearly as severe as it might sound on a US message board - probably still left of the Democrats politically. So they’re not really “far right” as such. Just in a “the Nazis are fairly centrist except for that jew thing.” kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/74 "2015-09-03T09:36:49Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Perhaps the rise of the “Far” Right in Sweden gives people the impression that Swedes are having a backlash against immigrants, mainly muslim ones. The rise of the Sweden Democrats must be a sympton of _something_. Im willing to admit its rise in the polls may have more than immigration as its cause, but a reaction to immigration is surely one of its main causes. I don’t see that it follows. Taking France as an example, our resident “brownies go home !” cryptonazi party has been steadily growing, yet immigration numbers have been pretty stable over the past 20 years, at 150k-200k a year (the smallest in all of Europe relative to our population size, too). But then again they’re also the Fuck Europe party, and the Gays Can Suck It party, and the Zionist Conspiracy Divulged!! party, and the My Country Right Or Wrong party, and the Booo Welfare Queens party so on and so forth. Plenty of flavours of shitheadery to pick from. Its rise is a symptom of an aging country more than anything IMO. Old people like old ideas, dislike scary young people. Get off their country-sized lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/75 "2015-09-03T10:10:07Z")
How common is the “Swedistan” meme in the rest of Europe and the Western world? I know that here in Denmark, it is _everywhere_. Not a day goes by without my local newspaper - a mainstream publication - trumpeting some hysterically alarmist “Sweden’s drowning in Muslims and lolwut they’re too feminazi P.C. weakling fags to do something about it!!!1!!1!” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/76 "2015-09-03T10:26:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I imagine you guys are eagerly looking for signs. The longer Sweden continues on without the disasters you predicted would happen, the more foolish your prediction looks. I’ve found a Swedish group that claims to [actually have seen a sign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_Base). > [@Construct](#): > > Most immigrants (in fact, probably almost all) to Sweden do not come from democratic polities, and thus are fine with changing society via non-democratic means, such as violence. How does that remotely follow? Most refugees are _not_ “fine” with violent social upheaval - that’s why they’re refugees in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/77 "2015-09-03T10:37:36Z")
It’s also an attempt to get ahead of the “socialism” argument that will be coming up in politics for the next presidential election because of Bernie Sanders candidacy. Sanders identifies as a “Democrat-Socialist” and it would be beneficial to Republicans and conservatives to rekindle a bunch of anti-socialism sentiment now before things heat up. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/78 "2015-09-03T10:46:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In the U.S., where the political center is slightly to the right of Genghis Khan, everything evil (from the perspective of the Political Right) is called “liberal.” (Do a search on posts by the SDMB poster **Starving Artist** for various examples.) In the U.S., people use “Genghis Khan” as an example of a “conservative” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/79 "2015-09-03T11:08:21Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > It’s also an attempt to get ahead of the “socialism” argument that will be coming up in politics for the next presidential election because of Bernie Sanders candidacy. Sanders identifies as a “Democrat-Socialist” and it would be beneficial to Republicans and conservatives to rekindle a bunch of anti-socialism sentiment now before things heat up. That can’t be it, no. The “Swedistan” meme is prevalent outside of the U.S., and has been around long before Mr. Sanders announced his candidacy. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/80 "2015-09-03T17:11:30Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > 1. This isn’t true. [Mainstream conservative organizations](http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape) that are firmly within the Overton window have called Sweden the “Rape Capital of the West”. Gatestone is decidedly _not_ a “mainstream conservative organization that is firmly within the Overton window”. It’s one of those American anti-Muslim sources that get their information from neo-Nazis talked about in the OP. Gatestone proudly hosts the anti-Muslim garbage written by [Fjordman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman) (they even label him a “distinguished scholar”), a [Norwegian white supremacist](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/38987_The_Fascist_Ideology_of_Fjordman) who was one of Anders Behring Breivik’s ideological heroes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=5)