# What's up with the "Swedistan" meme? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711 "2015-09-02T15:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/81 "2015-09-04T00:50:06Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In the U.S., people use “Genghis Khan” as an example of a “conservative” 🙂 Well, sorta. More like “extreme opposite of liberal.” Not so much as a conservative, (no one would confuse him with Barry Goldwater or William F. Buckley Jr.), as extreme Right Wing, without invoking invidious comparisons to Hitler, Mussolini, or Franco, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/82 "2015-09-04T02:42:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sweden is NOT normal. Ain’t you ever seen _The Seventh Seal?!_ The best movie ever crafted by man. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/83 "2015-09-08T02:29:38Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Not really. I find the culture in Malmö to be excellent as a whole, and the problem with violent crime being contained to in-fighting between criminals. And the “murder Capital of Sweden” still has a much lower murder rate than the US average, so statistically I’m safer there than in the US even if I don’t take into account the fact that the violence is criminal-on-criminal. > > The reason I wouldn’t feel safe in the US is not only because of the high murder and violence rate though, it’s because I feel it is a very macho and aggressive culture without a social safety net. I’m not a very macho guy and I am a pacifist, I don’t feel comfortable around that sort of people. Also the idea that I would not have access to adequate health care if I get sick or get into an accident would be very worrying, I like having a safety net. Not trying to diss you here but I think you agree that the US is not a good match for effeminate and sensitive euros. You’d think I’m a fag/pussy and I’d think you’re a brute. 😉 Now here’s a stereotype I can get offended by. I am confident you would find yourself perfectly well treated in 99% of the USA. It’s actually a pretty tolerant place. Plenty of my friends are pussies and they get on just fine. There is a macho aspect to US culture, but for the most part it’s for show, if you follow my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/84 "2015-09-08T15:41:44Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Here liberals and conservatives make up the right wing, and social-democrats and socialists make up the left wing. A ”liberal” in Sweden is someone who prefers privatization and de-regulation, with emphasis on personal freedom and responsibility. There’s the social-liberal who tends to just want more individual choice and less regulation, and then the neo-liberals who are more ideological and want to privatize big parts of what is today the responsibility of the public sector. > > To be fair I think the big conservative party and right wing leader in this country would be considered something like main stream Democrat in the US. Bernie Sanders would be considered a centrist. > > From our perspective the US doesn’t have a left/right political spectrum but rather an extreme-right/right. This is blowing my mind. American conservatives typically prefer privatization because it supports the capitalist idea of competition. American liberals are usually more in favor of regulation, to keep the greedy from being in power. You actually consider the US extreme right/right? I’ve always wondered why Canadians and Europeans tend to consider the US government oppressive. I can’t think of any freedoms or privileges I’ve been denied because of government mandate. We’re seen as overly religious, but I can’t think of anything I’ve been denied because of prevailing religion. If anything, I’ve been denied benefits because someone more needy got them, not because of any draconian right-wing decree. We gripe about taxes, which are supposedly much lower in the US than Europe. Many European corporations outsource to escape high taxation, from what I understand. One of the reasons the UK hasn’t joined the European Union is because they benefit from the numerous continental corporations that operate inside their boundaries. Greece serves as a prime example of the consequences of distributing too much from the money coffers, so the fact that we don’t want to go down that path shouldn’t be considered a purely right-wing issue. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/85 "2015-09-08T16:12:34Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > One of the reasons the UK hasn’t joined the European Union is because they benefit from the numerous continental corporations that operate inside their boundaries. Um…what? I’m pretty sure the UK joined the European Union in 1973. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/86 "2015-09-08T18:58:43Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Um…what? I’m pretty sure the UK joined the European Union in 1973. Sorry, should have said “UK didn’t adopt the euro as currency.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/87 "2015-09-08T20:50:08Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Sorry, should have said “UK didn’t adopt the euro as currency.” If they had, how would that make the UK a less attractive location for continental corporations? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/88 "2015-09-08T21:17:25Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’ve always wondered why Canadians and Europeans tend to consider the US government oppressive. I can’t think of any freedoms or privileges I’ve been denied because of government mandate. We’re seen as overly religious, but I can’t think of anything I’ve been denied because of prevailing religion. I have never encountered a European who considered the U.S. “oppressive” and I have no idea where that idea came from. Rather, a frequent criticism is that the U.S. with its fascination with “rugged individualism” and related themes is considered to be lacking in compassion and dismissive of the plight of the poor. One can provide arguments taking either side, but it helps to begin with the actual positions of and attitudes toward each other. Again, I have never heard the religious attitudes described as oppressive by Europeans. (There are folks in the U.S. who consider them oppressive, but that is not the same thing.) Europeans tend to be more puzzled by American attitudes toward religion, simply not understanding why so much American rhetoric is driven by religious beliefs, whether it is pressing for Creationism instead of science in the classroom, condemnation of people such as Mitt Romney by members of his own party for having the “wrong” religious beliefs, or opposition to nude beaches, American attitudes are just strange, (not oppressive), from the European perspective. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/89 "2015-09-08T21:30:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If they had, how would that make the UK a less attractive location for continental corporations? Greece is a good example. When all the currency of a country is tied to an equivalent value of multiple other countries, particularly those with which one trades, extensively, the currency ties the hands of the country in the way that an independent domestic currency, (which can float in value), does not. Paul Krugman provides an explanation of how[trading in the Euro has actually forced Greece closer to default](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html). ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/90 "2015-09-09T12:57:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have never encountered a European who considered the U.S. “oppressive” and I have no idea where that idea came from. > > Rather, a frequent criticism is that the U.S. with its fascination with “rugged individualism” and related themes is considered to be lacking in compassion and dismissive of the plight of the poor. One can provide arguments taking either side, but it helps to begin with the actual positions of and attitudes toward each other. > > Again, I have never heard the religious attitudes described as oppressive by Europeans. (There are folks in the U.S. who consider them oppressive, but that is not the same thing.) Europeans tend to be more puzzled by American attitudes toward religion, simply not understanding why so much American rhetoric is driven by religious beliefs, whether it is pressing for Creationism instead of science in the classroom, condemnation of people such as Mitt Romney by members of his own party for having the “wrong” religious beliefs, or opposition to nude beaches, American attitudes are just strange, (not oppressive), from the European perspective. I think geography has a lot to do with it actually, as well as the relative youth of the US compared to Europe. The US pretty much fought its way to the west coast, whether it was by displacing the natives, making deals, or beating other nations to the punch. We still have that mentality that competing forces are lurking in wait for our soft underbellies to show. Plus, the extremists make the news, so the rest of the world thinks nutcases like Sarah Palin and Donald Trump represent typical Americans. Surely Europe remembers its own examples of extreme religious belief, like the Inquisition? The Crusades? We’re softening the edges little by little. I personally thought in my lifetime I would never see a black president or legalization of gay marriage. Give us a few centuries. We’ll mellow out like they did. If the OP considers the US extreme right/right, how does he consider Israel? Russia? China? The Middle East in general? ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/91 "2015-09-09T23:48:35Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion but the Swedistan meme refers most pointedly to the fact that Sweden (and other homogenous-white European nations) are allowing in large numbers of muslim immigrants and there is concern whether these immigrants are coming to “melt” into European cultural norms or simply wish to maintain their prior cultural norms in a new landscape. > > In America, the quest to get here literally involves traversing an ocean. Immigrants come to America and assimilate rather quickly, while retaining a few key elements of their prior heritage. In Europe, muslim immigrants are retaining “too much” of their heritage, such that there is cultural conflict and unease. White-guilt liberals of the European variety don’t believe they should impose their cultural norms on these new visitors, but even they are slowly turning bitter that these immigrants don’t want to assimilate. “Far-right” political parties that are resistant to muslim immigration aren’t just a composite of neonazis. Many rational folks see what is happening and are rightfully concerned. You know absolutely nothing about scandinavian, or european for that matter, immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/92 "2015-09-10T10:25:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Greece is a good example. When all the currency of a country is tied to an equivalent value of multiple other countries, particularly those with which one trades, extensively, the currency ties the hands of the country in the way that an independent domestic currency, (which can float in value), does not. > Paul Krugman provides an explanation of how[trading in the Euro has actually forced Greece closer to default](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html). To a certain extent Greece is a terrible example as their problems are largely self-inflicted. I wouldn’t like to say that Greece blatantly made up its economic figures in applying to join the eurozone so let’s just say the Greeks were “extremely optimistic in their projections” and the EU had little legal recourse to challenge Greece’s numbers. They were a mess when things were going well; no surprise that they’re a mess now. The other three PIGS countries (or four if you count Iceland) are probably better examples. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/93 "2015-09-10T21:39:35Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > You know absolutely nothing about scandinavian, or european for that matter, immigration. Oooo an ad hominem to kick things off. Well played, sir. You win the internetz. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/94 "2015-09-10T21:43:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Oooo an ad hominem to kick things off. > > Well played, sir. You win the internetz. You don’t know what an ad hominem is, either, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/95 "2015-09-10T22:23:29Z")
“You know nothing” treads heavily into personal attack territory and less into the golden land of substantive rebuttal. Though, perhaps the latter feels foreign to you. (Substance _and_ style, boyee) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/96 "2015-09-10T22:32:58Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > “You know nothing” treads heavily into personal attack territory and less into the golden land of substantive rebuttal. Sometimes it’s a term of affection, but this is apparently only when a wildling falls in love with a young and handsome Night’s Watchman. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/97 "2015-09-11T02:25:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > To a certain extent Greece is a terrible example as their problems are largely self-inflicted. Regardless of how Greece got into their situation, (and they certainly played the greatest role in causing their own grief), their rigid tie to the Euro is definitely keeping them locked in it. Without the ability to let their national currency float, they will never have the funds, (from outside banks), to restore infrastructure and their balance of trade with foreign countries will always prevent them from paying off the loans. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/98 "2015-09-11T02:30:01Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Oooo an ad hominem to kick things off. Actually, the first _ad hominem_ was yours with “\*Not that any of you wish to have an honest discussion. . . \*” ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/99 "2015-09-12T19:26:17Z")
Indeed he evoked the ad hominem upon his detractors, before he raised his hand to split the sea in half, allowing the dimwits and PC ideologues to pass despite their deflections derived of intellectual insecurity. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711/100 "2015-09-12T20:24:58Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > “You know nothing” treads heavily into personal attack territory and less into the golden land of substantive rebuttal. Or it’s, yanno, factual. “Don’t listen to this man, he rapes kittens” is ad hominem - your potential for kitten buggery being irrelevant to (most) debates. “You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about”, unsubstantiated but wholly apparent as it may be, or is, is not in fact ad hominem. If you really don’t know shit about what you’re talking about, people \*\*really \*\*shouldn’t listen to you - it’s perfectly logical. All men are entitled to their opinions, but not all opinions are equally valid. And seeing as you really, overtly and unquestionably don’t know fucking anything about European immigration or the behaviour of first gen European immigrants (factually speaking), well, maybe read a book, or meet an actual guy you’re talking about, I don’t _know_ how you can unfuck yourself. S’up to you, man. It’s work. Unrewarding, but somewhat satisfying still. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-swedistan-meme/729711.md?page=6)