# What's up with the US education system? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563 "2005-11-11T11:37:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Humanist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71c47a/32.png) [@Humanist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humanist)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/21 "2005-11-11T21:22:07Z")
I apologize, **Shagnasty** , I missed that part of your post. A test-taker who has prepared for the test is unlikely to see large fluctuations in his scores, even if he repeats his earlier preparation before each test. However, there are significant differences in scores between prepared test-takers and unprepared test-takers. **MLS** , of course they wouldn’t take off the analogies sections! Just make sure you never go to [this link](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/about/sat/FAQ.html#quest05). ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/22 "2005-11-11T21:51:39Z")
> [@Humanist](#): > > I apologize, **Shagnasty** , I missed that part of your post. A test-taker who has prepared for the test is unlikely to see large fluctuations in his scores, even if he repeats his earlier preparation before each test. However, there are significant differences in scores between prepared test-takers and unprepared test-takers. > > **MLS** , of course they wouldn’t take off the analogies sections! Just make sure you never go to [this link](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/about/sat/FAQ.html#quest05). You do know I was referring to the fact that you say you’re a tutor, and that this phrase is, um, less than clear. You probably meant “no more complaints about that it’s no longer **there**.” Plus you’ve got an extra preposition or two. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/23 "2005-11-12T02:56:03Z")
Hmm. Thanks. This was informative 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/24 "2005-11-12T05:24:53Z")
Another reason to complain about the essay on the SAT is because of the subjective way it can be graded, and because of the colorless, rote style that it reportedly rewards. One newspaper (the New York Times I think?) submitted anonymous essay samples taken from great authors of the past and had them graded by the SAT board; IIRC, most of them didn’t do too well. It seems the College Board liked to have a standard paragraph start with a declarative topic sentence supported by three examples, etc. The reason they changed the test is because some of the major college systems were threatening to drop the SAT requirement altogether, more or less because of continuing disparities in scores among certain groups. As mentioned before, the College Board is a private company, and rather than lose its big customers, it changed the test. Supposedly, the new test is easier to properly study for, and you _can_ work your way up to higher tiers in ways you couldn’t on a proper aptitude test. Even so, among colleges considered to be on the “vanguard” of such things, there is a strong de-emphasis on SAT scores. In an affirmative action lawsuit from a year or two ago, it was famously revealed that in the University of Michigan admissions system, a student who got a perfect 1600 on the SAT (very, very difficult to achieve) was awarded only 12 admission points; a minority student (except for Asians) was automatically awarded _20_ points. In contrast, a 4.0 GPA netted you 80 points. That should show you the relative importance of SAT scores at some schools (and the University of Michigan is one of the top universities in the nation). I’m surprised no-one has mentioned the SAT-II tests. Lots of colleges now require at least two or three of them; these are the subject tests – a couple hours testing your knowledge in one area. That’s probably the US equivalent to the intense English tests mentioned in the OP. There are also the AP tests, but I think they are mostly used to determine whether you should get some college credit, not as part of the application process. > [@Jonathon Chance](#): > > But beyond one’s grades little in high school leads directly to college admissions. That’s largely outside the purview of high school. The school might offer college counseling (how to get into college) or SAT/ACT test preparation courses but that’s pretty much it. Well, as others keep saying, it depends on what kind of college you want to go to. But things can get pretty cutthroat when it comes to college admissions in some places, and it goes way beyond grades. My cousin started working on SAT prep books in middle school. It sometimes seems like half the kids involved in clubs and sports and community service in high school are only doing it to pad their applications. (Hopefully, in the process, they’ll get all the regular benefits of joining clubs and sports and community service organizations, regardless of their initial reason for joining.) It was reported that on September 11th, 2001 in New York there were high school kids talking about how glad they were that they now had a foolproof college essay topic. Urban legend? Maybe, but sadly it rings true. ---
**Author:** ![fiztig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@fiztig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiztig)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/25 "2005-11-12T08:53:06Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think that the U.S. is different than most places because we consider anything before college to be just a warmup and college to be the real deal. High School standards are lower than many countries but our college standards can be higher and we have many of the best colleges in the world. Yes, this is very different to New South Wales, Australia. We work on a similar framework to csharpmajor in WA, however the only compulsory subject we have is English. Mind you, we do have quite rigorous standards. We have three English strands - ESL (where students can only study this course if they have been in Australia for \<= 5 years), Standard English (the minimum) or Advanced English. On top of that a student can study up to three extra units of English. To give you an idea of what we expect our 17 and 18 year old school leavers to be able to do, check out last year’s HSC [Standard English](http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/hsc2004exams/pdf_doc/english_std_p2_04.pdf) exam paper and [Advanced English](http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/hsc2004exams/pdf_doc/english_adv_p2_04.pdf) exam paper (warning: PDF files). You can check out all exams of subjects studied from [this](http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/index.html) page. I’d be interested to gauge opinions from people in other areas on the examination standards we expect from our students. So when you suggest that high school standards may be lower, how much lower are you talking? And how much work is actually done in those first couple of years of college? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/26 "2005-11-12T12:20:40Z")
I was a high school English teacher. In summer school I once had a ninth grade student who could not write his name and address. He did not pass my class. The principal changed his grade to a passing grade saying that since he hadn’t done well in ninth grade English, maybe he would do better in the tenth grade. I had a lot of principals that were like that. ---
**Author:** ![party\_store](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@party\_store](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/party_store)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/27 "2005-11-12T14:00:19Z")
**fiztig** : I believe a NSW student can study 2 extra units of English, not 3. Adv English and Standard English are 2 units each, and students study one exclusively. Then they can study 3 Unit (English Extension 1) and 4 Unit (English Extension 2). There is no 5 unit English. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/28 "2005-11-12T14:03:45Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I was a high school English teacher. In summer school I once had a ninth grade student who could not write his name and address. What, literally? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/29 "2005-11-12T18:30:11Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I was a high school English teacher. In summer school I once had a ninth grade student who could not write his name and address. He did not pass my class. The principal changed his grade to a passing grade saying that since he hadn’t done well in ninth grade English, maybe he would do better in the tenth grade. > > I had a lot of principals that were like that. I think part of the No Child Left Behind bill was to try to stop “social promotions” like these. Makes sense to me – if a kid fails, why should he/she move on to the next level? Not sure how I feel about the rest of the bill (too much emphasis on standardized tests) but this part of it makes sense, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ishamael69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@ishamael69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ishamael69)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/30 "2005-11-13T18:06:07Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The SAT is the single biggest predictor of freshman year grades in college. That _may_ be true for freshmen grades (I’m skeptical). However, [Harvard](http://www.edletter.org/past/issues/2004-mj/corecurriculum.shtml) disagrees with the idea that the SAT is the biggest predictor of overall college success: > [@](#): > > [T]he biggest contributor to success in college isn’t a student’s SAT or ACT score, nor is it GPA or rank in class. Rather, the single best predictor of college success is the quality and intensity of a student’s high school curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![ombre3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@ombre3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/31 "2005-11-14T03:34:37Z")
Just curious. Am 62 years of age and didn’t have to take an SAT test to get into college 44 odd years ago. Don’t think the SAT even existed back then. I did have to take some sort of “senior test” as I recall----on which I did better than expected at the time,—considering I was a “C” student in high school. Went on to get a BA in college. But I am now retired and a little bored. Would like to take today’s SAT just for the hell of it. Is it free for whomever? My “senior test” ever so long ago cost zilch to take. I really like freebies. Who knows? --you never know–I might want to go back to college and get another degree, so I assume I am at least a little bit legit in wanting to take the SAT. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/32 "2005-11-14T03:46:04Z")
Definitely not free. Probably more than you wanted to know [here.](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg.html) ---
**Author:** ![ombre3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@ombre3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/33 "2005-11-14T03:52:43Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Definitely not free. Probably more than you wanted to know [here.](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/reg.html) More than I wanted to know for sure. Shoot. You get nickled and dimed for everything anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/34 "2005-11-14T04:36:16Z")
Neither the SAT nor the ACT are free – which made me wonder any state (as someone mentioned earlier) could make it a graduation requirement that all their students take one of the tests. If that happened I would imagine there’d be endless lawsuits about people who couldn’t afford to pay. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/35 "2005-11-15T01:38:50Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Neither the SAT nor the ACT are free – which made me wonder any state (as someone mentioned earlier) could make it a graduation requirement that all their students take one of the tests. If that happened I would imagine there’d be endless lawsuits about people who couldn’t afford to pay. Not a problem; remember, they require that you pay for lunch. They just set up exceptions based upon a showing of need. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/36 "2005-11-15T02:21:47Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Not a problem; remember, they require that you pay for lunch. They just set up exceptions based upon a showing of need. That makes sense about exceptions based on need for the test, but I’ve never heard of schools requiring students to pay for lunch. When I was in high school you either bought lunch, brought it from home, scrounged for leftovers in the home ec room, or didn’t eat. I think it was the same at my sibling’s high schools (between us we’ve gone to about six different high schools in different school districts). ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/37 "2005-11-15T02:56:03Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > That makes sense about exceptions based on need for the test, but I’ve never heard of schools requiring students to pay for lunch. When I was in high school you either bought lunch, brought it from home, scrounged for leftovers in the home ec room, or didn’t eat. I think it was the same at my sibling’s high schools (between us we’ve gone to about six different high schools in different school districts). These days most public schools have some sort of free or reduced lunch program available for children whose families are needy. At least that’s the case in NJ, and I believe it’s a federal program. ---
**Author:** ![myskepticsight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@myskepticsight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myskepticsight)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/38 "2005-11-15T03:50:55Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Things get hairy when trying to judge students by any sort of rigid requirement. Two of my kids, for example, had three years of foreign language in high school. The state requirement is two years. However, the University of Missouri requires _four years_\* for admission. So, despite having extremely high grades, my kids were not eligible for admission. One went to a private school which would accept her three years of study, but required that she take additional foreign language and math courses, the other went to a different university which required no additional courses in either foreign language or math. (My third child studied four years of foriegn language in high school and was accepted at a state university that required no additional foreign language.) I go to Mizzou and only took 3 years of foreign language in high school. Four years in HS waives your foreign language requirement at the university - I’m stuck with 3 semesters of French now, but I got in to this school, early admission - but I’m just a sophomore so it is possible they changed this? I took the PSAT (SAT practice test) and PLAN (practice ACT) in HS. These are a good practice and give you a projected score - also, because of my PLAN score, I was nominated for a summer program called Missouri Scholars Academy. Got beat out by the chick in my class (of 550) who got a 34 (of 36) on the ACT on the first try. Once I decided where I wanted to go to school, I then took the ACT because that was the preferred test for that school. It seems like east/west coast and more prestegious schools require SAT more than say, state schools. I thought the ACT was easier than the PSAT, and my scores on PLAN/ACT were much higher than my PSAT score. I still took it 3 times trying to just get one point higher and get some guaranteed state money. Damn science reasoning section sucks. Every college I looked at had a minimum score requirement for them to even look at your application (though I am sure there are ways around that - if they understand not everyone is a great standardized test taker) Also, in certain math classes at my high school, they had ACT prep lessons - trigonometry was not a required math course but some basic trig is often on the ACT - so we learned it in class, along with going back over all the old geometry and algebra basics. Other departments (English etc) also offered ACT prep sessions. I’m not sure if commnity colleges require ACT or SAT, especially because I know many adults attend classes at comm colleges (convenient, cheap, night school) and they might not have taken one. I have a lot of friends that attend community colleges though. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/39 "2005-11-15T20:51:48Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > That makes sense about exceptions based on need for the test, but I’ve never heard of schools requiring students to pay for lunch. When I was in high school you either bought lunch, brought it from home, scrounged for leftovers in the home ec room, or didn’t eat. I think it was the same at my sibling’s high schools (between us we’ve gone to about six different high schools in different school districts). The point is that they don’t give you the lunch they provide for free, except on a need basis. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563/40 "2005-11-15T21:01:13Z")
> [@ombre3](#): > > Just curious. > > Am 62 years of age and didn’t have to take an SAT test to get into college 44 odd years ago. Don’t think the SAT even existed back then. I did have to take some sort of “senior test” as I recall----on which I did better than expected at the time,—considering I was a “C” student in high school. Which college did you go to? I took them 38, 39 years ago (including PSATs). DSYoungEsq’s helpful history showed when they started. The actual tests are created by the Educational Testing Service of Princeton, for the College Boards. (They were down the street from where I used to work.) They do research as well as write tests. When I took the NY Regents, they were not a graduation requirement per se, but were a requirement to get credit for certain Regents classes. You had to pass the class and get at least a 65 on the Regents exam at the end of the term. The bookstores were full of study guides. In California today every high school student must pass a test showing they have some minimal amount of knowledge. This is given multiple times, and when you pass you don’t have to take it again. My daughter tells me it is not very hard. Back to the OP. Schools can do anything they want (that does not violate various anti-discrimination laws) to screen applicants. Cooper Union, a private and free school in New York, used SATs as a screen for admission to a battery of tests that they gave at the college. When I applied admission pretty much depended on your scores on these tests - they were not very interested in your grades. For engineering they gave a math and spatial perceptions test. US colleges often have interviews and other non-academic criteria. A new book on the history of admissions policy at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton says that these were put in 80 years ago or so because Jews were doing too well on the standardized testing. (I’ve just read reviews, not the entire book). Interviews and the like allowed the class makeup to be tailored the way the administration desired. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-up-with-the-us-education-system/330563.md?page=3)