# What's with the 5th taste? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394 "2006-12-16T13:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/1 "2006-12-16T13:57:04Z")
I saw a wine column that said besides the classic tastes of salt sweet sour and bitter that there is an extra one for MSG. I haven’t had anything with MSG since the 60s, and even then it was just an acronym with no flavor associated with it. Where is this sense on the tongue, and what natural foods is it associated with? ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/2 "2006-12-16T14:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=According to Pliny] I haven’t had anything with MSG since the 60s [/QUOTE] You sure about that? MSG is a base component in a lot of different foods. Unless you’ve taken the time to research what foods don’t include it, you probably eat it a lot more than you think. If you’ve eaten canned soup, most frozen food, or snack foods like potato chips since the 60s, you’ve probably eaten MSG. Umami is name of the flavor that is associated with MSG. It’s generally described as a “meaty” or “fuller” taste. Contrary to popular opinion, studies on MSG have not proven it to be harmful in any way. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/3 "2006-12-16T14:16:03Z")
From Wiki: > [@](#): > > As a general rule, taste is a holistic assessment of the interaction of the fundamental taste systems of sweetness, sourness, bitterness, saltiness, and umami (savouriness). Location of the stimulus on the tongue is not important… > …In reality, the separate populations of taste buds, sensing each of the basic tastes, are distributed across the tongue, though not entirely equally; And a 6th taste: > [@](#): > > New evidence is emerging that supports the inclusion of a sixth taste category for free fatty acids, > **[Taste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taste)** > > The gustatory system or sense of taste is the sensory system that is partially responsible for the perception of taste. Taste is the perception stimulated when a substance in the mouth reacts chemically with taste receptor cells located on taste buds in the oral cavity, mostly on the tongue. Taste, along with the sense of smell and trigeminal nerve stimulation (registering texture, pain, and temperature), determines flavors of food and other substances. Humans have taste receptors on taste bud and > [@](#): > > Umami is a Japanese word meaning “savory” or “meaty” and thus applies to the sensation of savoriness – specifically, to the detection of glutamates, which are especially common in meats, cheese and other protein-heavy foods. The action of umami receptors explains why foods treated with monosodium glutamate (MSG) often taste fuller or just better. > **[Umami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami)** > > Umami (/uːˈmɑːmi/ from Japanese: うま味, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ɯmami\]), or savoriness, is one of the five basic tastes. It is characteristic of broths and cooked meats.: 35–36  People taste umami through taste receptors that typically respond to glutamates and nucleotides, which are widely present in meat broths ... ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/4 "2006-12-16T18:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=Athena] You sure about that? MSG is a base component in a lot of different foods. Unless you’ve taken the time to research what foods don’t include it, you probably eat it a lot more than you think. If you’ve eaten canned soup, most frozen food, or snack foods like potato chips since the 60s, you’ve probably eaten MSG. [/QUOTE] IIRC, one code name for MSG is “hydrolyzed vegetable protein.” ---
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/5 "2006-12-16T21:07:19Z")
Hmmm. I did a search and found that indeed that’s one of many aliases. [“MSG - The Slow Poisoning Of America MSG Hides Behind 25+ Names, Such As ‘Natural Flavouring’ MSG Is Also In Your Favorite Coffee Shops And Drive-Ups”](http://www.rense.com/general67/msg.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/6 "2006-12-17T01:01:12Z")
I think I read that some people find straight MSG sweet. I guess it depends on what’s in their saliva, wouldn’t it? with MSG just amplifying it? Also, I understand that boiling most proteins will yield some MSG. And that gelatin has a ton of the stuff. Anyone can confirm these two? ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/7 "2006-12-17T01:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] I think I read that some people find straight MSG sweet. I guess it depends on what’s in their saliva, wouldn’t it? with MSG just amplifying it? [/quote] Cite? That doesn’t make much sense… Glutamate and sugars are structurally very different. I’d be surprised if this were true. > [@](#): > > Also, I understand that boiling most proteins will yield some MSG. And that gelatin has a ton of the stuff. Anyone can confirm these two? This is true, but my guess is that any process rendering edible food won’t hydrolyze proteins very much. It requires a good amount of heat, or the presence of an acid or base, and even then a lot of animal proteins are stable enough that they don’t break down entirely during cooking. Still, since glutamate is a common enough part of a protein, you’ll probably be releasing some amount of free glutamate when cooking most proteins. Gelatin is essentially protein; I can’t say what the glutamate content is though. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/8 "2006-12-17T04:44:07Z")
FWIW, Sun Tzu (China, 4th c. BCE) says there are five flavors, but doesn’t name them. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/9 "2006-12-17T05:35:43Z")
[QUOTE=Can Handle the Truth] FWIW, Sun Tzu (China, 4th c. BCE) says there are five flavors, but doesn’t name them. [/QUOTE] Sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and hot (think chili and hot peppers). ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/10 "2006-12-18T18:20:33Z")
Ooo, Mommy, this tastes meaty! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/11 "2006-12-18T19:38:55Z")
In my mind, there are at least seven flavors – the five indicated plus chili “stinging hot” and mustard “sinus-clearing hot” – two very different sensations. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/12 "2006-12-18T21:15:20Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] In my mind, there are at least seven flavors – the five indicated plus chili “stinging hot” and mustard “sinus-clearing hot” – two very different sensations. [/QUOTE] It’s my understanding that there are four (or five) types of taste receptors on the tongue, and that the two “tastes” you mention are really just chemicals that “shock” all taste buds equally. Something about the capsaicin or something being able to bind, imperfectly, to all the receptors that usually only bind with one kind of chemical. I’ll let those who actually know what I’m talking about (I don’t really) elaborate. By the way, here’s the Straight Dope article on [umami](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mumami.html). ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/13 "2006-12-18T21:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=lazybratsche] Cite? That doesn’t make much sense… Glutamate and sugars are structurally very different. I’d be surprised if this were true. [/QUOTE] sorry I never got back to this. I just couldn’t find the thread! (being new with a ton of catch up and still unfamiliar with the organization of the forum). It was in some pop magazine (most likely Newsweek or Wired since they are my most regular reads). The way it sounded was that MSG just amplified flavours instead of having a taste of its own. That meant that was people thought MSG tasted like was more of a reflection of their oral hygiene than anything else. :dubious: Is this true? How does MSG actually work? ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/14 "2006-12-19T02:42:56Z")
[QUOTE=lazybratsche] Cite? That doesn’t make much sense… Glutamate and sugars are structurally very different. I’d be surprised if this were true. [/QUOTE] Aspartame is a [dipeptide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame) which is a sciency way of saying ‘baby protein’ since proteins are polypeptides. Glutimate is an amino acid, too. I see MSG most often listed as monosodium glutimate. It is naturally occuring in all living organisms since it is necessary for the production of proteins and enzymes necessary for life. There is little evidence that MSG can cause the illnesses most often blamed on it and most, if not all of the symptoms can be explained by the sodium, not the glutimate or the combination. I was taught that umami was most closely linked to ‘savory’ but it is very hard to isolate umami from other flavors. Many westerners can’t tell the difference between savory and salty. ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/15 "2006-12-19T03:14:11Z")
[QUOTE=Enola Straight] Sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and hot (think chili and hot peppers). [/QUOTE] “Hot like chili” doesn’t seem right to me; aren’t peppers native to the Americas? If Sun Tzu did say “hot” he might have been talking about mustard or wasabi, which are not at all like chili. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/16 "2006-12-19T03:39:51Z")
Or maybe curry? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/17 "2006-12-19T08:07:28Z")
[QUOTE=Enola Straight] Or maybe curry? [/QUOTE] Curry is a spice mixture (or more properly, a class of spice mixtures). The hotness in curry comes from chile peppers. I suppose it’s possible that in pre-Columbian times there were curry mixtures that relied on other spices (like black pepper) for heat. Also, I don’t know that I’d consider the spiciness of chili peppers a flavor in the same category as sweetness, sourness, saltiness and bitterness. The spiciness of chilies is a pain sensation - capsaicins (the chemicals that cause hotness in chilies) cause a similar burning sensation when applied to other parts of the body (the eyes, for example). The last four flavors are detectable only by the taste buds - you can’t detect the sweetness of sugar water (for example) if you get it in your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/18 "2006-12-19T08:49:12Z")
Capsasian occurs purely a new world plant. Most people don’t realise that the spicy cuisines of India, South East Asia and Sichuan have all come about in the last 400 years. Sun Tzu was probably referring to Sichuan peppercorn if anything. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-5th-taste/384394/19 "2006-12-19T08:55:56Z")
[QUOTE=Shalmanese] Sun Tzu was probably referring to Sichuan peppercorn if anything. [/QUOTE] Which is a weird taste sensation in and of itself–I’ve never tasted another food like it. Sichuan peppercorns are not hot or spicy at all. They don’t taste like peppers or chilis. Instead, they have a numbing, tingling flavor. By numbing, I mean sort of like getting hit with a low dose of Novocaine. The tingle of sichuan peppers combined with the heat of chiles is called _ma la_ (“numb and spicy hot”) and is common in Sichuan cuisine.