# What's with the entrenched anti-religion groupthink around here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365 "2008-12-22T21:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/361 "2008-12-26T22:12:16Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > See now, as useful a tool as the _reductio ad absurdum_ can be I think we can agree that it’s much more possible to come to an agreement on what we all think of as “apple pie,” including a range of differences and variations that still allow the item in question to qualify as such than we can do the same for the term “god.” As for our relative existences I’m willing to believe in you if you’ll believe in me–just in the interests of continuing to have this conversation, don’tcha know. Otherwise it’s all just wanking and as fun as that can be in the proper context I don’t think a thread about it would go to eight pages absent something really unusual happening, ya think?\* Gladly granted! I will restate, however, that even if we accept that the world exists as our collective senses seem to suggest (which means apple pies are not phantoms), that does NOT mean that we can assume that God does not exist–only that we may not be able to find objective proof of God’s existence. I’m sure we both assess that circumstance differently, but that doesn’t render the existence of God any more or less likely by virtue of a discovery of a spiritual function of the brain. We could, again, find an “apple pie” function of the brain, one that allows us to detect the taste of such a thing. That discovery doesn’t mean apple pies do or don’t exist. It merely means our brains are equipped to detect them. > [@](#): > > I am genuinely curious to know, though, what your **personal** feelings would be if you discovered that the reason you felt spiritual transcendence was vulnerable to manipulation at will by entities outside yourself, and more specifically to find that such manipulation had taken place. I think I’d feel incredibly angry and betrayed, but then again I suspect that I have enough right parietal lobe activity to push me over into the category of “solipsist” so I’m not a good yardstick… 😛 Such a discovery would be cause for reflection. But my ability to love or feel compassion, etc., is likewise vulnerable to manipulation by outside entities. If aliens reduced my brain’s ability to love (or increased it), that wouldn’t make the act more or less worthy. Unless we’re back to the notion that ANY perception is a potential act of trickery, an illusion, a shadow of something–a notion which we two, the only two persons accepted to exist in this thread, have already disposed of. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/362 "2008-12-26T22:13:36Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Can you **prove** otherwise? **Kalhoun** says that there is no real truth. I think the burden of proof rests on the one who makes that statement. [QUOTE=Kalhoun] It’s painfully evident that it’s true. [/QUOTE] So you say that there is no real truth (or “Truth”), that all “truth” is fluid, and that it’s painfully evident that this is true. Let that sink in for a moment, please. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/363 "2008-12-26T22:16:14Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m sorry we seem to be bypassing each other on the highway to understanding. No, I don’t mean something as casual as “I guess I just like it” without much thought but ultimately, even after soul searching and study and prayer, and time invested, the religion or belief system we decide fits us best comes down to “It works for me” which is not that different from, I just like it. It fits the definition of arbitrary because even after thought and study, it’s still a matter of personnel preference. > > A religion might be selected because they have a better band on Sunday, or because their teachings speak deeply to your heart. Granted , one seems more arbitrary than the other but they both qualify. > IMHO I’d say, yes, religious beliefs are arbitrary but not often the casual whim brand. I’m afraid that includes yours and mine, IMHO. I think we’ve pounded the definition into a fine dust. Since we don’t seem to disagree on anything in this exchange except how to assign the word “arbitrary,” I’m not sure there’s much left to clarify. Your definition isn’t terribly troubling to me, though I have a semantical disagreement with it. Again, that’s not the sense of the word others have given it in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/364 "2008-12-26T22:21:50Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > **Kalhoun** says that there is no real truth. I think the burden of proof rests on the one who makes that statement. > > So you say that there is no real truth (or “Truth”), that all “truth” is fluid, and that it’s painfully evident that this is true. > > Let that sink in for a moment, please. I said there is no universal Truth. Truth with a capital “T” is not the same as lower-case truth. Lower-case truth changes, minute by minute, individual by individual. Therefore, capital “T” Truth cannot exist. You’re welcome to provide an example of a universal Truth if you have one. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/365 "2008-12-26T22:23:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I said there is no universal Truth. Truth with a capital “T” is not the same as lower-case truth. Lower-case truth changes, minute by minute, individual by individual. Therefore, capital “T” Truth cannot exist. You’re welcome to provide an example of a universal Truth if you have one. E equals m c squared. (Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to do superscripts. Well…I was too lazy.) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/366 "2008-12-26T22:25:43Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > I’ll come out of the closet: I’m a Spinozist who uses Judaism as a symbolic system for getting close to God. (I think that puts me somewhere between Conservative and heretic.) I believe God is the universe thinking to Itself. (Himself?) I have no problem with the Science Daily study. The perception of God is related to decreased activity in the part of the brain dealing with perception of self? So we’d know God all the time if we weren’t so self centered and hung up on our own ego? And since love involves the lowering of ego boundaries, God is love, or at least closely related to it? Why don’t religions ever point these things out! 😉 I can’t follow Spinoza’s argument for the single substance–it seems circular to me (perhaps it’s supposed to). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/367 "2008-12-26T22:31:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > E equals m c squared. (Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to do superscripts. Well…I was too lazy.) I should have been more clear. There are scientific truths, like the theory of relativity, but even those are disputed by some people (I’m not one of 'em). I guess I can actually come up with one truth – we’re all gonna die some day. But even that could be disproven sometime in the future as science advances. I was referring to the religious/moral Truths being discussed here. I hope that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/368 "2008-12-26T22:33:12Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I said there is no universal Truth. Truth with a capital “T” is not the same as lower-case truth. Lower-case truth changes, minute by minute, individual by individual. Therefore, capital “T” Truth cannot exist. You’re welcome to provide an example of a universal Truth if you have one. Lower-case truths are “true,” only in the sense that they are coherent with the “whole,” the upper-case Truth. Just ask Spinoza, he’ll tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/369 "2008-12-26T22:33:21Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I should have been more clear. There are scientific truths, like the theory of relativity, but even those are disputed by some people (I’m not one of 'em). I guess I can actually come up with one truth – we’re all gonna die some day. But even that could be disproven sometime in the future as science advances. I was referring to the religious/moral Truths being discussed here. I hope that makes sense. Oh, I knew what you meant. I was actually, in my usual assholish way, seeking to support your thesis by asserting that only statements about the physical world can be accorded the value of truth, as statements about religious or spiritual matters are, at best, about subjective matters, and, at worst, are about imaginary ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/370 "2008-12-26T22:34:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, I knew what you meant. I was actually, in my usual assholish way, seeking to support your thesis by asserting that only statements about the physical world can be accorded the value of truth, as statements about religious or spiritual matters are, at best, about subjective matters, and, at worst, are about imaginary ones. Got it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/371 "2008-12-26T22:37:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Got it. 🆒 And now you owe me a fin! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/372 "2008-12-26T22:45:04Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I said there is no universal Truth. Is that universally true? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/373 "2008-12-26T22:45:19Z")
The Truth is, it’s the day after xmas and I ain’t got it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/374 "2008-12-26T22:47:47Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Is that universally true? You tell me. It’s not True that there’s a god. It’s not True that all believers in god believe in the same god. It’s not True that god, if he exists, is a “good” god because the definition of “good” isn’t a universal Truth. Do you have an example of a universal Truth? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/375 "2008-12-26T22:49:40Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You tell me. It’s not True that there’s a god. It’s not True that all believers in god believe in the same god. It’s not True that god, if he exists, is a “good” god because the definition of “good” isn’t a universal Truth. Do you have an example of a universal Truth? But if it’s not true that there is a God, then it is there true that there no God, no? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/376 "2008-12-26T23:00:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But if it’s not true that there is a God, then it is there true that there no God, no? No, I don’t think the absence of a Truth about the existence of a god equals a Truth that there isn’t. We all have a lower-case truth, whichever way we lean. It’s irrelevant to everyone else which way the other guy leans because it’s all internal. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/377 "2008-12-26T23:02:55Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, I don’t think the absence of a Truth about the existence of a god equals a Truth that there isn’t. We all have a lower-case truth, whichever way we lean. It’s irrelevant to everyone else which way the other guy leans because it’s all internal. Don’t make me get all recursive on your ass. I got a copy of “The Mind’s I” right here, and you don’t want to start up with me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/378 "2008-12-26T23:10:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Don’t make me get all recursive on your ass. I got a copy of “The Mind’s I” right here, and you don’t want to start up with me! 😃 I just googled it. _Whoa_. I’d like to squeeze that into my 2009 Reading List. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/379 "2008-12-26T23:12:11Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I just googled it. _Whoa_. I’d like to squeeze that into my 2009 Reading List. What’s this “like to” crap? 😉 Hie thyself to a library! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/380 "2008-12-26T23:20:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > What’s this “like to” crap? 😉 > > Hie thyself to a library! I work 12 hours a day. My reading list is a little backed up. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=20)