# What's with the entrenched anti-religion groupthink around here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365 "2008-12-22T21:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/41 "2008-12-22T23:12:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s the job of those claiming he exists to come up with evidence. No. It’s the job of he who makes the assertion to provide the evidence, which **Ogre** has done here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/42 "2008-12-22T23:14:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > No. It’s the job of he who makes the assertion to provide the evidence, which **Ogre** has done here. In other words, the religious double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/43 "2008-12-22T23:16:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The fact that I’m commanded to love you is plenty of evidence that God exists. Well, you’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: …that you’re a wingnut. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/44 "2008-12-22T23:19:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, the religious double standard. You’re not particularly bright, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/45 "2008-12-22T23:24:30Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > (10) hardcore atheists (which are rare in gen pop. because it’s too much effort). I dunno how rare we are, but I’m not aware of any great effort involved. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the\_deuce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/71e660/32.png) [@What\_the\_deuce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the_deuce)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/46 "2008-12-22T23:25:30Z")
The word “groupthink” is inflammatory and therefore I probably should not have used that particular word, but I think _you know what I mean…_. Also, some people are saying that the SDMB is actually too pro-religious. Could those people please cite examples, since I’ve been lurking on and off since 2001 and I see much more excessively anti-religious than excessively pro-religious sentiments. Also, regarding “Fighting Ignorance”. I don’t think religion is a very fruitful fight to make. Unlike beliefs like “black cats are bad” or “electric fans cause suffocation”, a person’s belief in God is very central to who they are and almost impossible to change. Usually such changes are a massive personal crisis that is remembered and affects the rest of a person’s life, so trying to change it is just banging your head against the wall. In fact, it may be detrimental, as religous people are happier ([Cite](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=435412&page=1)). There are false beliefs where we can make much, much more headway for a given amount of effort. As someone else stated, people use “fighting ignorance” as an excuse to persecute relgious people. Religion serves a purpose. First, it’s clear that humans have evolved to believe in supreme beings, so there is clearly an evolutionary advantage to it. Religious people are happier than non-religious people (cited above). Religion is probably good for getting people to be nicer than they otherwise would, if only for fear of punishment from a God who can see what you’re doing even if the police or your neighbors can’t. Regarding atheists being a persecuted minority. It’s easy for us to hide. Unlike those black/etc. people, who can’t hide it at all, or those homosexuals (who hide it at great inconvenience), we atheists can easily blend in and no one will be the wiser. Also, receiving persecution doesn’t give us the right to persecute back. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I suspect a lot of this rage is from the newly deconverted. It’s like how new vegetarians will shout “Meat is murder!” very frequently and fervently at first, with a rapidly decrease in frequency with length of time as a vegetarian, until, to quote some internet humorist out there, “eating meat is a crime no worse than tearing the tag off a pillow”. **Brown Eyed Girl** : I don’t see any evidence at the moment. If God starts talking to me, and I can somehow prove it’s not a hallucination, then I’ll believe in God. And, yes, I’m aware that sometimes terrible things are committed in the name of religion, but I think that’s really just an excuse. If there was no religion, people would find some other excuse. You know, like density of melanocytes or something. Okay, so density of melanocytes persecution is a _really_ contrived example that could _never_ happen, but you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/47 "2008-12-22T23:30:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’ve been noticing a large amount of radical atheism on these boards as well. Now, I’m a completely non-religious agnostic who was never raised with religion. I think my problem is that I never had the “crisis of the faith” that many atheists had, so I just don’t feel threatened or defensive by religion. Anyway, the aggressive atheists leave a bad taste in my mouth. We all have our beliefs and should learn to work with each other, not fight each other at every possible moment. \*\*\*\* It is the same as it ever was around here. There are some douchebags who are religious, some douchebags who aren’t religious, and people who aren’t douchebags at all. I doubt you’re going to find any more “radical” atheism here in Dec 2008 than you would in Dec 2000, Dec 2001, Dec 2002, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/48 "2008-12-22T23:31:44Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Religion serves a purpose. First, it’s clear that humans have evolved to believe in supreme beings, so there is clearly an evolutionary advantage to it. Religious people are happier than non-religious people (cited above). Religion is probably good for getting people to be nicer than they otherwise would, if only for fear of punishment from a God who can see what you’re doing even if the police or your neighbors can’t. This isn’t a very good take on evolution, and invites a comparison between religion and the appendix. Whatever purpose it might once have served, we don’t necessarily need it any more. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/49 "2008-12-22T23:32:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > **Jesse Leigh** is annoying because she mentions her religion in _practically every post_, even when it’s completely irrelevant. When she doesn’t do that, she’s quite pleasant. > > And personally, I’m not offended by someone blessing me when I sneeze. I’d rather they didn’t, but that’s not the same thing. I rather agree, it is nice she has found a belief that makes her happy, and I really dont mind the random christian bless you when I sneeze, or happy \ but I do not need to be preached at in every single post [or real life conversation.] I will let anybody witness to me once. I will even be polite [as long as it doesnt interfere with something I have planned, then you are being pushy and rude not to schedule the witnessing for when it is convenient for both of us.] But do NOT witness to me constantly. I will thank you for the random blessing, or happy holidaying, and even thank you for witnessing to me. I will also make it clear that the witnessing will be a one shot deal and that is that. You bring it up again, and tht will probably be the last personal conversation we will have. Why yes I did have a co worker I had to take to HR because they insisted on witnessing to everybody repeatedly for weeks and weeks and weeks. When someone is polite and rational, I am more than happy to actually discuss differences in theology from the scholastic point of view if they are willing to treat it as an educational experience and not a witnessing situation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the\_deuce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/71e660/32.png) [@What\_the\_deuce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the_deuce)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/50 "2008-12-22T23:34:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This isn’t a very good take on evolution, and invites a comparison between religion and the appendix. Whatever purpose it might once have served, we don’t necessarily need it any more. Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/51 "2008-12-22T23:39:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You’re like the horse with his fucking nose scraping the bottom of the trough, drowning in water and asking why no one will give him a fucking drink. You’re a non-thinking troll whose arguments consist entirely of insults and slogans. You’ve never given a cite in your whole miserable history. You counter evidence simply by denying that it has been offered. Your understanding of science and its purpose is so woefully weak that you emasculate it with your idiotic demands that it prove analytical facts. You’re a fucking dumbass, suffereing delusions of grandeur as you imagine yourself to be some kind of warrior against religion. You are impotent. Your brain has no balls. You’re stupid. You’re a punk. You’re a whore. You’re a one-man Gestapo. You have the intelligence and ethics of Fred fucking Phelps. You’re a little bitty man with a big fat mouth. You’re nothing. You’re sewage. You’re a shit stain on humanity. The fact that I’m commanded to love you is plenty of evidence that God exists. Commanded? And you call this lovely example _love?_ Really? What’s the definition of love again? Because this rant doesn’t fit any definition of love I’ve ever seen. And if you really feel this way about **Der Trihs** (i.e., commanded against your better judgement to LOVE him), why are you attacking him here…unprovoked? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/52 "2008-12-22T23:49:22Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Please elaborate. Well, it’s true that if a mutation is beneficial, it aids in survival, but the mutation tends to persist long after its usefulness ends as long as it doesn’t prove excessively harmful. I could buy that ritual helps provide structure, which helped strengthen early human societies, but these days we have nationalism and sports teams and whatnot. If religion (or at least the wackier fundamentalist aspects of it) fades over the next two or three generations, I think humanity would do just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/53 "2008-12-22T23:51:34Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Religion serves a purpose. First, it’s clear that humans have evolved to believe in supreme beings, so there is clearly an evolutionary advantage to it. Religious people are happier than non-religious people (cited above). Religion is probably good for getting people to be nicer than they otherwise would, if only for fear of punishment from a God who can see what you’re doing even if the police or your neighbors can’t. I can make a similar argument for rape. It’s clear that humans have so evolved that violent rape conferred an evolutionary advantage, at least in the ancestral environment. By waylaying women and forcing copulation onto them regardless of their will, a man increases his chances of passing on his genes with minimal investment of his time and resources. Moreover, because committing rape is pleasurable, the rapist increases his personal happiness–not merely while committing the rape, but while planning it (anticipatory pleasure), recalling it (nostalgic pleasure), and telling people about it (exhibitionistic, approbatory, and terroristic pleasure). Committing multiple rapes leads to desensitivation to the suffering of others; this is also likely to make the rapist happy, as he is less bothered when he sees the travails to which all flesh is heir. And if enough men decide that rape is a social good, then they can intimidate women as a class and increase their personal happiness, albeit at cost to the women. Only problem is, rape is evil, and rapists should be killed. Likewise, the only problem with believing in, say, the Christian God, is that he is almost certainly non-existent; and in the extremely unlikely event that he does exist, is responsible for no small amount of deliberately inflicted and sadistic torture. Even the belief in a non-existent god leads many more people to commit atrocities than have been moved to do so by atheism. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/54 "2008-12-22T23:52:01Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Religion serves a purpose. First, it’s clear that humans have evolved to believe in supreme beings, so there is clearly an evolutionary advantage to it. Religious people are happier than non-religious people (cited above). Religion is probably good for getting people to be nicer than they otherwise would, if only for fear of punishment from a God who can see what you’re doing even if the police or your neighbors can’t > […] > > And, yes, I’m aware that sometimes terrible things are committed in the name of religion, but I think that’s really just an excuse. If there was no religion, people would find some other excuse. You know, like density of melanocytes or something. Okay, so density of melanocytes persecution is a _really_ contrived example that could _never_ happen, but you know what I mean. We have to be careful in our justifications for religion. How healthy is it, really, to go around telling yourself that you have to behave or you’ll spend eternity in fiery torment? How healthy is it to teach our children to live in that kind of fear? It may be effective on some levels, but in the end, they are lies and can do great harm in unforeseen ways. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/55 "2008-12-23T00:09:16Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > In fact, it may be detrimental, as religous people are happier ([Cite](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=435412&page=1)). Certainly being part of any social group makes us happier. But there are plenty of other groups that don’t involve belief without proof, ritual and clashes with other religions. > [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Religion serves a purpose. First, it’s clear that humans have evolved to believe in supreme beings, so there is clearly an evolutionary advantage to it. Religious people are happier than non-religious people (cited above). Religion is probably good for getting people to be nicer than they otherwise would, if only for fear of punishment from a God who can see what you’re doing even if the police or your neighbors can’t. No, this doesn’t hold up. Humans believe in taking drugs, committing crimes, adultery and prostitution etc. Having a fear of God’s eternal punishment is the only way to get religious folk to behave? :eek::smack: > [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > And, yes, I’m aware that sometimes terrible things are committed in the name of religion, but I think that’s really just an excuse. If there was no religion, people would find some other excuse. Again I don’t agree. There have been incredible numbers of religious killings, often between members of the same religion, but different sects. Consider catholic v protestant, shia v sunni, christian v muslim and hindu v muslim. The only reason for all these conflicts is religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/56 "2008-12-23T00:16:27Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > No. It’s the job of he who makes the assertion to provide the evidence, which **Ogre** has done here. That’s silly. I’m responding to a widely-made claim from entrenched cultural beliefs. I am not making my statement in a vacuum. The positive claim that “God exists” has been made millions and millions of times. Not once, ever, in any circumstance, has any substantiation been made. In absence of one single shred of evidence, I’m rejecting the hypothesis. God does not exist. Neither do fairies, elves, goblins, or trolls. Except the message board kind. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the\_deuce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/71e660/32.png) [@What\_the\_deuce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the_deuce)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/57 "2008-12-23T00:18:45Z")
I seem to have bogged myself down in arguing whether or not religion is a good thing, generating responses that go as far as to accuse religion as being on the same footing as rape. :eek: My point is basically that we should be [nice to each other](http://xkcd.com/438/), and that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/58 "2008-12-23T00:21:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You’re like the horse with his fucking nose scraping the bottom of the trough, drowning in water and asking why no one will give him a fucking drink. You’re a non-thinking troll whose arguments consist entirely of insults and slogans… [and the rest] Holy fucking shit man. Bravo. That was poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/59 "2008-12-23T00:27:37Z")
Truly, that kind of love must be immortalized in verse and song. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/60 "2008-12-23T00:29:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Truly, that kind of love must be immortalized in verse and song. Such brotherly love could only have come from God himself. And I say that without a hint of sarcasm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=4)