# What's with the entrenched anti-religion groupthink around here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365 "2008-12-22T21:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/141 "2008-12-24T03:45:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … > One devout communist in four is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > One devout Christian in a hundred is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > One devout capitalist in a thousand is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > > This claim has not been verified by the FDA. Yes, but if the one devout capitalist is the CEO of United Fruit, or some other megacorporation, when the workers get too uppity they call in the goon squads, or stage a coup, or whatever is needed to keep the profits rolling in. A whole lot of the history of South America relates to what European and later American businesses did in the name of profits. Correction: they didn’t really do things in the _name_ of profits, as that wasn’t a particulary good marketing strategy. No, it was all about _freedom_ or whatever other things they cooked up to send in the police, or Marines, or whoever. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/142 "2008-12-24T04:01:47Z")
Sure, capitalism isn’t bloodless. I still prefer it to the other two. Heck, as systems of government go, compare Soviet communism at its height, the Holy Roman Empire at its height and, say, the somewhat satirical ultra-capitalism as portrayed in the _RoboCop_ movies. I’ll take Delta City over Florence or Moscow. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/143 "2008-12-24T04:10:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, capitalism at least has a working demonstrable theory behind it - supply and demand and all that, and price fluctuations are somewhat predictable. Communism depends on humans acting in ways that are somewhat contrary to human nature, in adherence to some idealized theory. Christianity, ditto. Of course, you said “extreme promoters.” I figure roughly among nutcase fringe elements: > > One devout communist in four is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > One devout Christian in a hundred is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > One devout capitalist in a thousand is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. > > This claim has not been verified by the FDA. Along those lines and considering the correlation between libertarianism and people like Stormfronters and militia members, I’d guess that one devout libertarian in two is potentially homicidal in defending their cause. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/144 "2008-12-24T04:29:55Z")
OP, Most religious people have been brainwashed. They were taught by their parents that God exists during a very sensitive stage of brain development. Now that they are in their mental decline it will take years of persistent nagging in order to help them realize the truth about their place in the world. Luckily for them, the SDMB offers that service. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/145 "2008-12-24T04:33:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes, but if the one devout capitalist is the CEO of United Fruit, or some other megacorporation, when the workers get too uppity they call in the goon squads, or stage a coup, or whatever is needed to keep the profits rolling in. A whole lot of the history of South America relates to what European and later American businesses did in the name of profits. > > Correction: they didn’t really do things in the _name_ of profits, as that wasn’t a particulary good marketing strategy. No, it was all about _freedom_ or whatever other things they cooked up to send in the police, or Marines, or whoever. That’s not capitalism or any version of libertarianism. Capitalism and libertarianism require that people not be compelled into making their decisions. ETA: And how exactly do you define “homicidal in defending his cause”? I mean, I would certainly fight anyone who tried to impose Communism by force upon the U.S. (of course, that is a scenario which is just not going to happen), but I suspect that’s not what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/146 "2008-12-24T04:42:56Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > That’s not capitalism or any version of libertarianism. Capitalism and libertarianism require that people not be compelled into making their decisions. Well, let’s be fair. Communism _in theory_ doesn’t require mass murder, Christianity _in theory_ doesn’t require inquisitional torture, but we examine the practices, rather than the theory. It wouldn’t be fair to dismiss deaths that result from union busting and whatnot simply because _in theory_ they aren’t part of capitalism. As for what is meant by “homicidal in defending their cause”, I’m considering how likely it is for a devout follower of a particular theory to resort to violence and murder when things don’t go as planned, i.e. when they run into someone who doesn’t accept the theory. Communists were fond of gulags; Catholics were fond of wars and inquisitions; Capitalists are fond of… I dunno, suing people? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/147 "2008-12-24T04:49:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > …Capitalists are fond of… I dunno, suing people? Shopping elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/148 "2008-12-24T04:52:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Shopping elsewhere? Okay, but we mustn’t ignore the reality of a trampled WalMart greeter on Black Friday. Capitalism has its victims, too. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/149 "2008-12-24T04:55:00Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > OP, > > Most religious people have been brainwashed. They were taught by their parents that God exists during a very sensitive stage of brain development. Now that they are in their mental decline it will take years of persistent nagging in order to help them realize the truth about their place in the world. Luckily for them, the SDMB offers that service. For free now too! This is such an altruistic bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/150 "2008-12-24T05:57:53Z")
I suppose I’m one of the silent majority–the 95% of Christians who are fairly reasonable people, mentioned upthread. I guess all I have to offer is: it’s not my business what you believe in or don’t believe in. I honestly don’t mind if you’re atheist or Christian or Jewish or Pastafarian or whatever. If you think I’m wrong, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree. I respect you, and I hope that you respect me. It goes without saying: for those on ‘my side’, or whatever you want to call it, who are acting like asshats–Fred Phelps and etc.–I apologize. We don’t want them in humanity’s roll call anymore than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/151 "2008-12-24T06:05:41Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > “Groupthink” implies to me that people come here and become immersed in and coerced by a centrally-formulated doctrine. That’s not what I thought the definition was. I thought it was what you describe below. > [@Huerta88](#): > > I come to this board with the presumption that I am going to run across a disproprortionate to highly disproportionate (based on their respective representation in the general populace) number of: > > (1) liberals along the spectrum from moderate liberal to near-communist. > (2) science fiction/fantasy and comic book fans; > (3) television addicts; > (4) people who aspire to write fiction; > (5) gamers; > (6) Renaissance Faire types; > (7) homosexuals; > (8) Obama fans; > (9) agnostics; and > (10) hardcore atheists (which are rare in gen pop. because it’s too much effort). > > With some of these groups, I feel little fellow feeling or shared interest, but (1) there’s always a counterexample; and (2) no one’s making me stay here. > > Oh, I did forget category (11) – self-satisfied, I-was-the-smartest-in-my-elementary-school-class, sophomoric types who are dying to show how sophisticated they are. And sometimes that’s by dumping on believers. And sometimes it’s through other annoying behavior. And there clearly is a loud anti-religious contingent here. I’ve been on some atheist boards where they foster that. And I’ve been on some atheist boards where they virtually stomp on it. I’d say that it’s allowed here. But as far as the thread the OP linked, that had less to do with religion than it did with posting style, I think. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/152 "2008-12-24T06:09:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … but there’s a lot of general dumping on religion, too. Indeed. This is evidenced by the large number of threads that purport to discuss the evils or dangers of religion. These threads invariably lump all religions together and paint them with a broad brush, despite the tremendous variability in religious beliefs. That’s a pretty good indication that people are arguing based on entrenched antireligious thinking rather than proceeding from empirical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/153 "2008-12-24T06:18:37Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Indeed. This is evidenced by the large number of threads that purport to discuss the evils or dangers of religion. These threads invariably lump all religions together and paint them with a broad brush, despite the tremendous variability in religious beliefs. I think you significantly overestimate the extent of this variability and if it’s all just a matter of selecting this or that set of arbitrary beliefs, what difference could it make? And does it matter if an atheist acknowledges that 95% or more of religious people aren’t a problem; it’s the loudmouth extremists that create the conflict? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/154 "2008-12-24T06:33:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think you significantly overestimate the extent of this variability and if it’s all just a matter of selecting this or that set of arbitrary beliefs, what difference could it make? The mere fact that you paint religion in this manner demonstrates my point. The major religions certainly do not simply “select this or that set of arbitrary beliefs.” Christian theologians, for example, do not simply say, “Ooh, I kinda like this doctrine, so I’ll pick this one to adopt.” Obviously, not all of these beliefs can be correct, but to insist that they are all merely arbitary is a pretty bigoted and ignorant statement. As I said, your response demonstrates my point… namely, that religion is routinely painted around here with a broad brush, one that fails to consider the nuances of the various beliefs or in the differences between them. > [@](#): > > And does it matter if an atheist acknowledges that 95% or more of religious people aren’t a problem; it’s the loudmouth extremists that create the conflict? When people start threads about the evils of religion, then their choice of words shows that they are addressing religion itself, not just the extremists. If they were to merely address the loudmouth extremists, then we would have less cause for disagreement. Instead, religion itself is routinely blamed around here with nary an objection. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/155 "2008-12-24T07:48:55Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The mere fact that you paint religion in this manner demonstrates my point. > > The major religions certainly do not simply “select this or that set of arbitrary beliefs.” Christian theologians, for example, do not simply say, “Ooh, I kinda like this doctrine, so I’ll pick this one to adopt.” Obviously, not all of these beliefs can be correct, but to insist that they are all merely arbitary is a pretty bigoted and ignorant statement. Okay, what about Christianity is not arbitrary? What elements of its various dogmas are verifiable by independent research? Don’t expect me to be impressed just because you claim to have taken offense; _prove_ me wrong. As I see it, even Christians aren’t certain what comprises Christian belief, hence the various schisms and reformations and such. If a modern-day Martin Luther came forth and proposed a radical change in Christian belief, would he be right? Would he be wrong? How would you know? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/156 "2008-12-24T08:03:17Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Indeed. This is evidenced by the large number of threads that purport to discuss the evils or dangers of religion. These threads invariably lump all religions together and paint them with a broad brush, despite the tremendous variability in religious beliefs. The variable religious beliefs don’t matter, because they all have at least one thing in common : they are baseless. As **Bryan Ekers** points out; the beliefs in question are all arbitrary; simply declared to be true without any evidence, any basis in fact, and without any way to declare one more true than the other. So, they all do fit in the same category; that of empty, meaningless assertions. Or to be blunter about it; garbage is garbage, and all religions are garbage. Being garbage is part of what makes a religion a religion; if it was worthwhile, it wouldn’t be a religion. It would have some basis in fact; have some claim to being taken seriously beyond a demand to be taken on faith. Religion is what people label beliefs they want to be taken seriously but they can’t defend. Being wrong, or at least baseless is part of what makes something religious. The differences that seem so important to you, aren’t important to someone who doesn’t have an emotional investment in taking mythology seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/157 "2008-12-24T10:47:29Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The mere fact that you paint religion in this manner demonstrates my point. > > The major religions certainly do not simply “select this or that set of arbitrary beliefs.” Christian theologians, for example, do not simply say, “Ooh, I kinda like this doctrine, so I’ll pick this one to adopt.” Obviously, not all of these beliefs can be correct, but to insist that they are all merely arbitary is a pretty bigoted and ignorant statement. They’re absolutely arbitrary. The mere fact that a believer would choose one religion over another is proof that it’s arbitrary. They like the _feel_ of a particular religion so they choose to attend, study, and believe the teachings of that particular religion. > [@](#): > > As I said, your response demonstrates my point… namely, that religion is routinely painted around here with a broad brush, one that fails to consider the nuances of the various beliefs or in the differences between them. Sure there are differences. But the god(s) concept is present in all of them. If I can’t get past that common denominator, it really doesn’t make a difference what the rest of it says. > [@](#): > > When people start threads about the evils of religion, then their choice of words shows that they are addressing religion itself, not just the extremists. There are evils and there are _evils_. There are still basics that apply across the board that are considered by many to be detrimental to mankind. > [@](#): > > If they were to merely address the loudmouth extremists, then we would have less cause for disagreement. Instead, religion itself is routinely blamed around here with nary an objection. Nary an objection? _Really?_ ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/158 "2008-12-24T11:12:37Z")
[QUOTE=Steven Weinberg] With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil – that takes religion. [/QUOTE] Bright man that Weinberg. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/159 "2008-12-24T11:15:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, what about Christianity is not arbitrary? What elements of its various dogmas are verifiable by independent research? Don’t expect me to be impressed just because you claim to have taken offense; _prove_ me wrong. As I see it, even Christians aren’t certain what comprises Christian belief, hence the various schisms and reformations and such. If a modern-day Martin Luther came forth and proposed a radical change in Christian belief, would he be right? Would he be wrong? How would you know? They are not arbitrary within their own belief systems, which I’m sure you’d find baseless. But you’re missing the point. JThunder correctly pointed out how often people on this board paint all religions as the same–toss 'em all in the same pile, there’s no real difference anyway. On cue, you parachute in and basically say, “But all religions _are_ the same!” That’s the point of contention, I believe. You won’t even consider the possibility, apparently, that any two religions might vary significantly in their danger or “evilness,” a notion that is ridiculous on its face, but that dovetails nicely with the orthodoxy of a significant subset of this board. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365/160 "2008-12-24T11:22:14Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > They’re absolutely arbitrary. The mere fact that a believer would choose one religion over another is proof that it’s arbitrary. They like the _feel_ of a particular religion so they choose to attend, study, and believe the teachings of that particular religion. No exceptions, eh? You’re also making JThunder’s point. No scholars or earnest students in the realm of religion, it’s all about “feel.” Got it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-entrenched-anti-religion-groupthink-around-here/478365.md?page=9)