# What's with the erb word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055 "2003-08-09T17:34:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/1 "2003-08-09T17:34:36Z")
How come the pronunciation of herbs in the US is ’erbs? I can understand West Indians saying ‘erb to refer to Weed ‘cos the dropped H is common there, but not in America (personally I wish you’d drop the W, but that’s a whole different matter). I asked an American friend who’s lived in Blighty for a long time and she didn’t have a clue - but said that if she said “_H_erb” when back in the US by mistake she was looked on with great distain and pity. The only thing I can think of is that it’s seen as of French origin – in which case at this time of peace and understanding between the peoples of the world, maybe “Freedom Leaves” should be used instead. “You say potato and I say potaaato” (- who the hell says “potaaato” anyway?) Capt B. Phart ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/2 "2003-08-09T17:37:43Z")
Herb is a dude’s name… 'erb is what you put in your spaghetti ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/3 "2003-08-09T17:55:03Z")
Yes… but why? ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/4 "2003-08-09T18:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Capt B. Phart \* > \*\*Yes… but why? \*\* In the words of Weebl, “Because . . . and . . . that’s why.” Seriously, though, I have no clue. There may not be a good reason for it at all. Maybe some cunning linguist decided that after we’d made the switch from _colour_ to _color_ and from _centre_ to _center_, it might be fun to change some pronunciations too. ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/5 "2003-08-09T18:09:05Z")
Oh, and welcome to the boards, **Capt B. Phart**! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/6 "2003-08-09T18:17:21Z")
Many words of French derivation are pronounced by Americans in a manner vaguely close to that of the French, whereas the Brits will mutilate the hell out of them just out of spite (witness “garage” (GAR-ridge) as one particularly egregious example). It’s just one of those things. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/7 "2003-08-09T18:21:53Z")
The Good people of Bartleby have this explanation: > [@](#): > > The word herb, which can be pronounced with or without the (h), is one of a number of words borrowed into English from French. The (h) sound had been lost in Latin and was not pronounced in French or the other Romance languages, which are descended from Latin, although it was retained in the spelling of some words. In both Old and Middle English, however, h was generally pronounced, as in the native English words happy and hot. Through the influence of spelling, then, the h came to be pronounced in most words borrowed from French, such as haste and hostel. In a few other words borrowed from French the h has remained silent, as in honor, honest, hour, and heir. And in another small group of French loan words, including herb, humble, human, and humor, the h may or may not be pronounced depending on the dialect of English. In British English, herb and its derivatives, such as herbaceous, herbal, herbicide, and herbivore, are pronounced with h. In American English, herb and herbal are more often pronounced without the h, while the opposite is true of herbaceous, herbicide, and herbivore, which are more often pronounced with the h. [http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/H0157300.html](http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/H0157300.html) ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/8 "2003-08-09T18:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Catalyst \* > \*\*Oh, and welcome to the boards, **Capt B. Phart**! \*\* _Tips Hat_ Thanks, Um, Thinking about it, probably the general tone of “because it just is” is about right - looking at other language threads and reading Bill Brysons excellent book on English suggests that looking for logic in language (particularly english) is a mugs game - but, hey I’m a mug and it’s just something that puzzled me for some reason ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/9 "2003-08-09T19:10:00Z")
I’ve not read Billy Bryson’s book _The Mother Tongue_, but from what I’ve heard it’s not very accurate, see this thread started by our resident linguist, **Uno Mundo** : [Interested in languages? Stay the hell away from Bill Bryson!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189221&highlight=Bill+Bryson) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/10 "2003-08-09T19:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Thinking about it, probably the general tone of “because it just is” is about right Well, yeah, but if you’ll note in the Bartleby comment, the (h)erb pronunciation is dependent on dialect in _Britain_, so we can probably push back the source of the American difference to the locations (and dialects) of the various Brits who initially settled in North America and which pronunciations they established. It is still a “just because” issue, but we can move it back to the right of the Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/11 "2003-08-09T20:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*I’ve not read Billy Bryson’s book _The Mother Tongue_, but from what I’ve heard it’s not very accurate, see this thread started by our resident linguist, **Uno Mundo** : [Interested in languages? Stay the hell away from Bill Bryson!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189221&highlight=Bill+Bryson) \*\* It’s “Made in Amercia” I’m thinking of, prob just as inaccurate, but then Bryson did work (IIRC) as a journalist for a Murdoch paper in the UK 😃 . (He’s now promoting a book that seems to be trying to explain the whole of science - maybe his facts are relative?) What I liked about his book tho was that it questioned the commonly held views about what is “English English” and what is “American English” - and if he made it all up, well why not? There’s too much accuracy around anyway - (just don’t ask me to cite on that one) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/12 "2003-08-10T02:22:25Z")
I would just like to mention that sometimes it is the British who kept the French pronunciation. In Britain, the word “trait” is pronounced like “tray”, definitely closer to the French. There are doubtless other examples, but that is the first one I thought of. It is hard to generalise about things like this. Where did the affectation of saying “an historical …” with the “h” pronounced, come from? It sounds irremediably stupid and pedantic and to be stupid and pedantic at the same time is quite a feat. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/13 "2003-08-10T02:28:54Z")
I’d imagine it’s to do with the dialect, despite what Bill Bryson says, I heard a reconstructed Shakespearian accent and it sounds like an English West Country accent with a slight Brummie inflection. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/14 "2003-08-10T05:49:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hari Seldon \* > \*\*I would just like to mention that sometimes it is the British who kept the French pronunciation. In Britain, the word “trait” is pronounced like “tray”, definitely closer to the French. There are doubtless other examples, but that is the first one I thought of. It is hard to generalise about things like this. > > Where did the affectation of saying “an historical …” with the “h” pronounced, come from? It sounds irremediably stupid and pedantic and to be stupid and pedantic at the same time is quite a feat. \*\* I challenge you to find me a Brit who pronounces “trait” “tray”… I was born there and lived there for fourteen years and I never once heard it spoken thus. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/15 "2003-08-10T07:00:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The (h) sound had been lost in Latin I’m going to disagree with Barleby. I studied Latin and Greek to A Level, albeit 20 years ago. There are plenty of words in Latin which begin with H and we were taught that they pronounced as such - they had to be to make certain passages work. I’d suggest that it’s **Greek** that they mean here: Classical Greek words beginning with vowels (typically eta and epsilon) often have devices called soft or rough breathings on them. Further, Greek has phi and theta. Then there is the digamma character, present in older writings but absent in Classical Attic and Ionic Greek. I don’t have my schoolbooks any more so I can’t quote. And I’ll agree with **Dutchboy** about ‘Trait’ not being pronounced ‘Trey’ in the UK. We have many wierd and wonderful pronunciations, but that isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/16 "2003-08-10T10:05:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Capt B. Phart \* > \*\*I can understand West Indians saying ‘erb to refer to Weed ‘cos the dropped H is common there, but not in America \*\* My experience was the opposite. I’ve never (that I can recall) heard someone in the U.S. say **H** erb, unless it was a person’s name. In Jamaica, however, everyone pronounced the H. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/17 "2003-08-10T10:27:04Z")
I’ve heard people pronounce the “h” in “herb” here in the states, though it’s pretty rare, and it was usually in the phrase “herbs and spices.” Btw, love the name…(anxiously awaiting soprano sax and madness) ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/18 "2003-08-10T11:03:10Z")
Aussie anecdotes ahead : We say herb down under, not 'erb. And when the silly American woman who has an orgasm while washing her hair and pronounces it “Erbal Essences” starting appearing on ads over here, there was much pointing and laughing. And I was taught that the correct pronunciation of ‘trait’ is ‘tray’ but I rarely hear others use this. I would say it’s 95% ‘trayt’ and 5% ‘tray’, but that could easily just be the area I live in or the people I talk to. I have no idea what the real percentages of usage would be country-wide. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/19 "2003-08-10T11:30:48Z")
Pronunciation does change over the years . One example I can think of is Nestlé . When I was young everybody I knew pronounced it " nes-ells" because they only saw the word in written form on chocolate wrappers . Now most people pronounce it the correct way " nest-lay" because they have heard it spoken on TV adverts. ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055/20 "2003-08-10T13:43:26Z")
Man, this topic bugs me. Eddie Izzard made a joke of the whle “herbs”“erbs” thing in his show… I find it appaling that a bunch of people noted for saying “'ello! ‘ow’s it goin’?” make fun of **us** for how we say “erbs”. Not to mention filet and anchovy… ☹ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-erb-word/194055.md?page=2)