# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/281 "2005-03-21T09:46:42Z")
I should probably expound on that. There is no monolithic group of “anti-gunners” that is or isn’t violent. You are over-generalizing in the worst way possible. And yes, you _are_ ignorant. Incredibly so. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/282 "2005-03-21T15:06:56Z")
Made sense to me. I’m no grammar expert though. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/283 "2005-03-21T15:12:08Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I should probably expound on that. There is no monolithic group of “anti-gunners” that is or isn’t violent. You are over-generalizing in the worst way possible. And yes, you _are_ ignorant. Incredibly so. There is a ton of anti-gunners nation wide and world wide. You are one dumb motherfucker. Stupidity on par with the folks believing Terry Schiavo’s parents. Downright delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/284 "2005-03-21T16:58:51Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I should probably expound on that. There is no monolithic group of “anti-gunners” that is or isn’t violent. You are over-generalizing in the worst way possible. And yes, you _are_ ignorant. Incredibly so. Ex-Tank was assaulted physically by a group of people espousing anti-gun views because he supports the 2nd amendment. How is: > [@](#): > > Considering that, as a gun owner, I have never committed an act of armed violence outside of uniformed service, while having been physically assaulted by anti-gunners, I believe that I am also one step ahead of the anti-gunners morally as well. not an accurate description of that event? Really, I want to know the thought processes involved, maybe then I’ll be able to apply it to some of the stances taken by anti-gun groups and make some logical sense out of what they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/285 "2005-03-21T17:14:39Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > _IMHO, guns are completely unecessary and I can’t really even understand why people would want to hunt._ > > In general people hunt because they want to eat. A good size dear can feed a family for quite a long time. There are a great many people in this country for whom buying food is a massive financial burden. > > But most people, in my experience, who own guns do so because it’s enjoyable. Blowing shit up is _fun_. Seriously. Give it a try sometime. I don’t know a single person who hunts in order to survive. I know some who eat what they kill, but not because that’s their only means of nourishment. And those who find buying food a massive burden do not, in general, hunt to offset that cost. It is a “sport”. Or it is an effective means for committing crimes. That’s pretty much it. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/286 "2005-03-21T17:44:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **Alessan** said: > Maybe it’s because I’m a political moderate, but I don’t believe in slippery slopes. So then I guess you don’t believe in history, either, considering the many places where ‘just one more law’ and ‘all we want is registration’ led to de facto bans, eh? > [@](#): > > Democracy, to me, is a system of checks and balances, freedoms versus limitations, law versus chaos, and everything good comes through compromise. Some people push for more gun control; some people push for less. And in a true democracy, you will almost certainly have tyranny of the majority. This is why the United States was not established to be a democracy, but rather a constitutional republic. Avoiding tyranny of the majority was one of the reasons certain rights were recognized in the Constitution and why the government was told that it must keep its grubby paws off. > [@](#): > > **blowero** said: > If your goal is to convince people that gun-owners aren’t narrow-minded assholes, you just failed. Considering the view of themselves the anti-gunners present publicly, loudly, and as often as possible, and the fact that he’s been assaulted physically by more than one of them, I think he’s got pretty damn good grounds for his opinion. > [@](#): > > **ExTank** said: > But a casual analysis of the stated positions and proposed legislative measures of the true anti-gunner does equate to a “slippery slope” in effect; as each measure passes, and then fails to yield the desired effects (cessation of gun crimes), well, then, they just turn around and espouse another piece of legislation in their never ending quest to capture the chimera of “no more gun violence.” To be concise, their idea of compromise is always ‘one more restriction than we already have.’ ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/287 "2005-03-21T17:56:07Z")
I know people in the northeast who do, in fact, greatly suppliment their income with the venison they hunt. It’s the equivalent of a few hundred bucks of beef a deer, you know. Two of them, that’s a paycheck. And don’t forget what I said about eliminating vermin without harming other wildlife. And, of course, protecting your household from more aggressive wildlife. Like black bears. Which, even in New Jersey and New York, in places that have been settled since the first western explorers, we get. And very little is more dangerous than a yearling bear, kicked out of the den, hungry, and looking for somewhere to go… in the middle of suburbia or a city. Kids and pets are just the right size for a snack. We get coyotes, too. And you don’t want to get near a pissed off moose. Oh, and diseased ones, too. We get the rabid raccoons. If you wait for animal control, it’ll be back into the woods and gone… or in someone’s house. Let me repeat, I’m talking about the most settled areas in America. Are those ‘pure’ enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/288 "2005-03-21T18:07:24Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > But a casual analysis of the stated positions and proposed legislative measures of the true anti-gunner does equate to a “slippery slope” in effect; as each measure passes, and then fails to yield the desired effects (cessation of gun crimes), well, then, they just turn around and espouse another piece of legislation in their never ending quest to capture the chimera of “no more gun violence.” > [@CatSix](#): > > To be concise, their idea of compromise is always ‘one more restriction than we already have.’ Yep, that’s why I’ve have changed my mind, and now just flat out say no to more laws. I don’t trust the anti-gun groups. Not one bit. They sowed the seeds of mis-trust, let them reap the rewards. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/289 "2005-03-21T18:12:36Z")
**Kalhoun** , Just because you don’t know of any people who hunt for food doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/290 "2005-03-21T18:17:07Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > There is a ton of anti-gunners nation wide and world wide. I did not say there weren’t a lot of anti-gun people. I just don’t believe they are a monolithic entity that is predisposed to violence. Are you really that much of a moron, or do you just play one on TV? > [@](#): > > You are one dumb motherfucker. Stupidity on par with the folks believing Terry Schiavo’s parents. Downright delusional Whoah - getting a pretty high reading on the Irony-O-Meter. > [@other drooling NRA idiot](#): > > ## Ex-Tank was assaulted physically by a group of people espousing anti-gun views because he supports the 2nd amendment. How is: > > ## Quote: Considering that, as a gun owner, I have never committed an act of armed violence outside of uniformed service, while having been physically assaulted by anti-gunners, I believe that I am also one step ahead of the anti-gunners morally as well. > > not an accurate description of that event? Duh. Even if his story is true, he didn’t say, “I believe I am morally ahead of the people who assaulted me”, he said he was morally ahead of “THE anti-gunners”. It’s an over-generalization based on anecdotal evidence. You can’t extropolate _one_ incident to make pronouncements about an entire group; that’s stupid. > [@](#): > > Really, I want to know the thought processes involved, maybe then I’ll be able to apply it to some of the stances taken by anti-gun groups and make some logical sense out of what they are saying. Well I have my doubts that _you_ could make logical sense out of _anything_, but try substituting another concept, and it will become clear: “I was assaulted by a group of black men” IS NOT EQUAL TO “I am morally superior to black people”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/291 "2005-03-21T18:20:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Kalhoun** , Just because you don’t know of any people who hunt for food doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. Never said it did. But the numbers are so small as to be insignificant to this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/292 "2005-03-21T18:22:36Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Considering the view of themselves the anti-gunners present publicly, loudly, and as often as possible, Right, and pro-gun people don’t present their views loudly and publicly. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > and the fact that he’s been assaulted physically by more than one of them, I think he’s got pretty damn good grounds for his opinion. Yes, and _nobody in the history of the world_ has ever been assaulted by a pro-gun person. :rolleyes: I’m starting to wonder if you have to fail Logic 101 to be a gun advocate. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/293 "2005-03-21T18:27:48Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Never said it did. > > But the numbers are so small as to be insignificant to this conversation. Why is it insignificant? That’s a valid use for guns and one which occurs in our society. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/294 "2005-03-21T18:55:46Z")
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Some anti-gun people claim that they wouldn’t prohibit useful reasons for gun ownership. We then provide reasons for gun ownership, and it gets dismissed as insignificant. Nope, don’t trust ‘em one bit and this is one of the reasons why. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/295 "2005-03-21T19:44:29Z")
Kalhoun, stop and think. Let’s say two are equal to a side of beef. That’s half a cow. It feels about rightish, one freezer full. I may be undercounting, to tell the truth, may be one deer, but I’m going to overestimate here. A side of beef is… hit the net… [froogle.google.com](http://froogle.google.com) says $799.00. [Hunters](http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/s/h_deer_forecast03_VT.html) are allowed to bag three deer a year for $85. That’s 1600 bucks. That’s two-three weeks salary for your average american (after taxes). Assuming, considering the large number of gun owners… let’s even say NRA members alone, assuming a standard economic spectrum, and I’d be the first to say NRA might well be projected among lower income rather than higher… well, assuming average economic distribution, three deer is a sizable amount of cash that they don’t spend on groceries. And that doesn’t even count fishing or fowl. You _sure_ the numbers are negligable? It seems to run in a logical manner to me. Heck, if I cooked more, I’d do it. (Done it once. A man who eats meat is on the same moral level as the butcher. Therefore, it seemed ethically important that I experience the entire journey, from death to consumption. Worth doing, if you ask me.) ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/296 "2005-03-21T20:05:59Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Originally Posted by other drooling NRA idiot Boy, you really are an ignorant son of a bitch. I don’t mean stupid, I mean pig-ignorant, as in “don’t-bother-me-with-facts,-I-don’t-want-anything-to-challenge-any-of-my-ingrained-prejudices,-especially-not-stupid-things-like-the-truth” ignorant. What are you doing on the SDMB anyway? I would think the motto “fighting ignorance” would have the same effect on you as salt has on a slug. To take your points one at a time: I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the NRA. The only gun I own is a .22 rifle that I inherited from my grandfather, it’s been locked up and unfired for years now. However, the fact that someone as willfully uninformed as you feels that your righteous indignation is all that is needed to formulate policy denying people one of their fundamental rights as Americans is making me seriously reconsider that decision. I will most likely be joining the NRA in short order. At least the NRA attempts to formulate their position based upon facts and not because they think guns are scary. > [@blowero](#): > > Duh. Even if his story is true, he didn’t say, “I believe I am morally ahead of the people who assaulted me”, he said he was morally ahead of “THE anti-gunners”. It’s an over-generalization based on anecdotal evidence. You can’t extropolate _one_ incident to make pronouncements about an entire group; that’s stupid. Unless of course the group of people who assaulted him was a voluntary association of people for the purpose of opposing gun rights, in which case calling them “the anti-gunners” is pretty accurate. By your logic, it is wrong to say that James Chaney, Andy Goodman and Michael Schwerner were killed by “the KKK”. After all, it was just a group of people led by Imperial Wizard Sam Bowers, there is absolutely no reason to tar those other fine folks in the Klan who were not involved in the murder, is there? > [@blowero](#): > > Well I have my doubts that _you_ could make logical sense out of _anything_, but try substituting another concept, and it will become clear: > > “I was assaulted by a group of black men” IS NOT EQUAL TO “I am morally superior to black people”. Don’t worry, I’m sure I’ll be able to manage logic, you’re not contagious. The only place this makes any sense other than in the damaged intellects of drooling, slack jawed morons like yourself is if you can demonstrate that being black is a voluntary condition. Is it? No, it’s not, while joining an anti-gun group is, so why don’t you just shut your gibbering pie hole before the spittle on your monitor gets too thick for you to read the words underneath. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/297 "2005-03-21T20:22:28Z")
Wow…. From Colorado Division of Wildlife. 2004 Elk harvest - 63,336. 2004 Deer harvest - 41,742. That’s just Colorado. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/298 "2005-03-21T20:29:15Z")
> [@blowhard](#): > > I should probably expound on that. There is no monolithic group of “anti-gunners” that is or isn’t violent. You are over-generalizing in the worst way possible. And yes, you _are_ ignorant. Incredibly so. And you are now a hypocrite, as well: There is no monolithic group of gun owners that commit violent crimes, or sell firearms to criminals, or leave firearms unsecured for children to easily access and injure or kill themselves or their playmates, or espouse less regulation, or advocate Concealed Carry, etc., etc. Anti-gunners overgeneralize in the worst way possible. And yet for some reason, American gun owners are just supposed to accept their condemnation, and the role of the villain the anti-gunners have relegated them to, as the status quo. As far as my alleged “ignorance” goes, would you care to back that up with more than just words? Otherwise: Nyah-Nyah! 😛 Your Mother Wears Combat Boots, your Sister Has Hairy Legs, and You Have BO. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/299 "2005-03-21T20:37:32Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It is a “sport”. Or it is an effective means for committing crimes. That’s pretty much it. Nope. “It,” meaning, I assume, gun ownership, has also proven to be a pretty effective means for preventing the perpetration of both property crimes and violent personal crimes. I don’t particularly care how you feel about a gun owner using his firearm for this purpose, but the fact is, this is a not insignificant use (wholly legitimate in certain situations in my opinion) you have neglected. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/300 "2005-03-21T20:40:46Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > So then I guess you don’t believe in history, either, considering the many places where ‘just one more law’ and ‘all we want is registration’ led to de facto bans, eh? > ’ There were places like that. There were also places where central rule collapsed and the populace lived in constant teror of roving bands of armed bandits, due to the inability of the government to control weapons and those who use them. 14th century France, for instance. Or modern-day sub-Saharic Africa. I’d like to avoid _both_ of those extremes, thank you very much. Neither of those seem very appealing. As I said, law versus chaos. Too much of either sucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=16)