# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/341 "2005-03-22T22:13:02Z")
**Nametag** (and **Rebekkah** , if she’s still lurking): You may find [this](http://www.reason.com/0502/cr.ed.humanizing.shtml) interesting in developing a better picture of the “average” gun owner. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/342 "2005-03-22T22:15:12Z")
AAAAAAARGH!!! Will you knock it OF!!! I’m going tomget you all!!!11111 … … … With a crossbow! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/343 "2005-03-22T22:25:06Z")
AAAAAAARGH!!! Will you knock it OF!!! I’m going tomget you all!!!11111 … … … With a crossbow! 😛 Yes, that was all a joke. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/344 "2005-03-22T22:56:11Z")
**ExTank** , do _not_ change user names when quoting, even to take a jab. TVeblen Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/345 "2005-03-23T00:02:20Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > **ExTank** , do _not_ change user names when quoting, even to take a jab. > > TVeblen > Pit mod You mean the “Blowhard” bit? I believe that Blowero started that with changing a user name in a quote to “another drooling NRA idiot” or something to that affect. I assume that the warning should also be applied to Blowero as well? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/346 "2005-03-23T00:03:34Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > **ExTank** , do _not_ change user names when quoting, even to take a jab. > > TVeblen > Pit mod Then I fully expect you to take Blowero to task for the way that he changed my username when he was quoting me in post 290. Is it sauce for the goose, or is there some reason he’s getting a pass on this? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/347 "2005-03-23T00:06:31Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > That’s a lie. > > Look, buddy - I’m not gonna play your little game where you say something, I respond, and you just say the same thing again and pretend like I didn’t answer you. Go fuck yourself. Get some reading skills, and get back to me. 🙂 If it’s a lie produce the quote. It really is that simple. You can’t because there isn’t one. 🙂 You just flushed any credibility you might have had, putz. Going on and on about an argument you made when everyone who can read can see that you did no such thing is wonderfully entertaining. Posts made in your imagination don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/348 "2005-03-23T01:52:09Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > **E-Sabbath** , I guess I should rephrase… > Do you feel _more_ American than someone who _doesn’t_ own a gun? > Than someone who doesn’t _want_ to own a gun? No, that would be silly. I feel much more American than people who don’t own kazoos, though. The inherent absurity is a very patriotic thing. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/349 "2005-03-23T01:56:24Z")
I think blowero wants to own a gun. I think he’s just very envious. He used a shooting metaphor, that proves it. Nyaaah! Stupid-Head! Nyaaaaaaah. There. I feel better. Can we, beyond a statement that we are no longer responding to blowero, no longer respond to blowero here, folks? My name is E-Sabbath, and I am no longer responding to blowero. Anyone else, though, I would like commentary on my non-sport uses of a gun, that don’t always involve protection from thieves. Are there others? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/350 "2005-03-23T02:10:04Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Oh, and I forgot to mention his habit of comparing people to racists. You’re right **blowero** , he should have compared you to a 12 year old. Your first post in what started out as a good thread… > [@blowero](#): > > They’re compensating for their very, very small penis. You don’t give a shit about debate, or that someone (Rebekkah) wanted to learn something. Have you contributed anything besides name calling and stubbornness to this thread? Any facts or links? Any personal anecdotes? Anything that addresses the OP? I guess I’m with you E-Sabbath. It’s pretty pointless now. Still waiting for **Nametag** to show where people in this thread suggested vigilantism. But since it isn’t in this thread, I’m pretty much done. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/351 "2005-03-23T08:59:29Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Then I fully expect you to take Blowero to task for the way that he changed my username when he was quoting me in post 290. Is it sauce for the goose, or is there some reason he’s getting a pass on this? **TVeblen’s** cool; if **blowero** didn’t get called for it, it’s probably simply because **T** hasn’t seen it. I suspect someone tattled on me. But it’s cool; I was in the wrong anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/352 "2005-03-23T16:39:01Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Still waiting for **Nametag** to show where people in this thread suggested vigilantism. But since it isn’t in this thread, I’m pretty much done. Not in this thread; by “here” I meant the SDMB. There’s been many a serious suggestion to an aggrieved OP that he or she arrange for a discreet beating or other harm to a wrongdoer, or that a nuisance pet be “street-euthanised.” I wouldn’t expect the usual offenders to do so in a gun thread, though – it would make 'em look a little nuts. **Ex-tank** , the _average_ gun owner is of little interest in this debate. It’s the 90/10 rule, don’cha know. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/353 "2005-03-23T23:05:12Z")
I beg to differ; the “characteristics” of the average gun owner is fairly important, IMHO, as it this group that comprise the vast majority (easily 90%+) of gun owners; the remainder are the few who give the majority a bad name. And just as racial groups cannot in good conscience be “labeled” by the misdeeds of the few, neither can your average gun owner. The biggest problem in these debates, in my experience, is terminology. For the greater protion of the non-gun owning public, a “gun owner” is _anyone_ with a gun, whether it’s your friendly, peaceable, next-door-neighbor, or the gang of narcotics dealers in the worst inner-city ghetto. Pro-gun enthusiasts don’t count the criminals as “gun owners;” most, by law, cannot legally own guns due to prior convictions, and hardly any gun owner you care to ask believes that anyone has a right to keep and bear for the express purpose of committing criminal acts. Another problem is a typical misconception of just exactly how much gun violence there actually is. In the United States, of the firearms deaths in a given year, about 60% (slightly less) are suicides, and strong circumstantial evidence indicates that national firearm ownership rates only affect suicide-by-firearms, _not_ the overall suicide rate. A “substitution effect” is strongly implied by the little research actually done on the subject. Of the remaining firearms deaths, the Justice Dept.'s Bureau of Justice Statistics and the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports keep coming up with a lot of “Unknowns” for the vast majority of the remaining firearms deaths. Unknown circumstances, unknown relationships (between victim and perp.), etc. That is a huge unknown variable upon which to formulate a need for “more gun control” a fact implicitly acknowledged by the release of the National Research Council’s December 2004 report, [Firearms And Violence; A Critical Review](http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/). Now, as to “rage and paranoia,” I think you have missed the mark. Gun enthusiast are more accurately _outraged_ at the level of deceit anti-gunners employ, the perfidy, the out-and-out fabrications they concoct, to further their agenda. In spite of a certain person’s claim of having only one anecdote upon which to base my low opinion of anti-gunners, I have only to let these people speak for themselves: > [@](#): > > "We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily - given the political realities - going to be very modest. Of course, it’s true that politicians will then go home and say, `This is a great law. > > The problem is solved.’ And it’s also true that such statements will tend to defuse the gun-control issue for a time. So then we’ll have to start working again to strengthen that law, and then again to strengthen the next law, and maybe again and again. Right now, though, we’d be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal - total control of handguns in the United States - is going to take time. > > My estimate is from seven to ten years. The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second problem is to get all handguns registered. And the final problem is to make the possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition - except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors - totally illegal." > > _- Mr… Nelson T. Shields, III. “Pete” founder of the National Council To Control Handguns, which became Handgun Control, Inc. quoted from July 26, 1976 issue of The New Yorker Interview “A Reporter At Large - Handguns”, page 53._ > [@](#): > > "Ultimately, a civilized society must disarm its citizenry if it is to have a modicum of domestic tranquility of the kind enjoyed by sister democracies such as Canada and Britain. Given the frontier history and individualist ideology of the United States, however, this will not come easily. It certainly cannot be done radically. > > It will probably take one, maybe two generations. It might be 50 years before the United States gets to where Britain is today. Passing a law like the assault weapons ban is a symbolic - purely symbolic - move in that direction. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation. " > > _- Charles Krauthammer,The Washington Post, Friday, April 5, 1996, page A19 op-ed piece entitled “Disarm The Citizenry”_ > [@](#): > > “I don’t care about crime, I just want to get the guns.” > > _Senator Howard Metzenbaum 1994_ > [@](#): > > “Gun registration is not enough.” > > _- Janet Reno (Attorney General) December 10th, 1993_ > [@](#): > > “We’re here to tell the NRA their nightmare is true! We’re going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy. We’re going to beat guns into submission!” > > _- NY Representative Charles Schumer November 30, 1993_ Just a small, and somewhat superficial sample mind. It’s hardly fair to call pro-gunners “paranoid” when it is clearly evident that an array of opponents are out to get them. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/354 "2005-03-24T00:41:15Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > You’re right **blowero** , he should have compared you to a 12 year old. Actually, yeah - that wouldn’t be as bad. But doing the whole “you’re like a racist” thing - that’s kinda weak. > [@](#): > > You don’t give a shit about debate, or that someone (Rebekkah) wanted to learn something. > > Have you contributed anything besides name calling and stubbornness to this thread? Any facts or links? Any personal anecdotes? Anything that addresses the OP? This is ridiculous. Would you like me to quote all the drivel these _other_ people have posted, or will you concede that others are just as guilty? If you guys want to have a debate, do it in Great Debates with the 16 million other pointless gun debates that have already been done there. But don’t pretend that utter garbage that ExTank was spewing has _anything_ to do with reasoned discourse. At least _my_ quip about penis size was just that - a quip. I admit it; this is the BBQ Pit, and that’s where it goes. It was a joke; a cheap shot. But ExTank and his cronies are trying to pass off some really heinous generalizations about their opponents in the gun issue as being reasonable, and _that_ doesn’t fly. And the comparisons with racists shit doesn’t fly either. Jokes, banter, and insult-trading is one thing, but don’t feed me shit and tell me it’s filet mignon. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/355 "2005-03-24T00:43:08Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I think blowero wants to own a gun. I think he’s just very envious. He used a shooting metaphor, that proves it. > > Nyaaah! Stupid-Head! Nyaaaaaaah. So did we get to that reasoned discourse yet? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/356 "2005-03-24T00:46:16Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You just flushed any credibility you might have had, putz. Going on and on about an argument you made when everyone who can read can see that you did no such thing is wonderfully entertaining. Posts made in your imagination don’t count. I TOLD you, fuckhead - I’m done playing that game with you. You keep pretending I didn’t respond when I did. I’m not gonna go wading through this whole thread for you just to re-post stuff I said over and over. Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/357 "2005-03-24T01:13:06Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I TOLD you, fuckhead - I’m done playing that game with you. You keep pretending I didn’t respond when I did. I’m not gonna go wading through this whole thread for you just to re-post stuff I said over and over. Jackass. All you have to do is post a link to your response. Please do it now. Prove me wrong. Show the entire SDMB that I am the person who has been making things up. I’m begging you. Please. Put me in my place. Demonstrate that I am the liar here. I want you to. I’m itching to be taken down a peg. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/358 "2005-03-24T01:41:34Z")
Sorry, all, read too fast and missed this…\* **Blowero** , do _not_ change user names in quotes, even to take a jab. **ExTank** and **Blowero** , you two need to back away from each other in this thread. You’re both so intent on this punching match you’re staggering toward the edge. Take a couple of steps back, a few deep breaths–both of you–and reconsider how you’re going to handle yourselves in this fight. TVeblen Pit mod - if anybody catches this kind of thing, please do a ‘report this’. We try very hard to be consistent but sometimes things get past us even so. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/359 "2005-03-24T01:45:21Z")
Hey **Weirddave** , didja notice your last post was number 357 in this thread? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/360 "2005-03-24T02:06:28Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Hey **Weirddave** , didja notice your last post was number 357 in this thread? 😃 I’m bringing out the big guns. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=19)