# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/361 "2005-03-24T04:48:34Z")
OK, **ExTank** , as much as I didn’t want to get dragged into this, and as little time as I have for it, AND as disinclined as I am to argue for a position that I don’t entirely hold… This isn’t about you. You see someone who wants to ban guns, you look at your guns, and…well, the conclusion is obvious, but it’s wrong. Gun control and gun ban advocates are quite aware of you, the law-abiding 90%, but they are not targeting you. They are targeting the 10% – the lawless, the extreme, the enraged, and yes, the paranoid. If such people are dispossessed of their lethal technology, the world is safer; that many more are unable to pursue a hobby or guard against an unlikely attack seems a small price to pay. And the more vehemently one argues for one’s right to collect, to shoot, to hunt, the more selfish one sounds. The more vigorously one declares the need for guns to defend one’s home, one life, or liberty itself, the more paranoid and antisocial one sounds, because that liberty would be defended against – them. And they’re just trying to do the right thing… So no matter how much or how often you try to drag the debate back to the average gun owners, the law-abiding citizens, the decent majority, the more derision you will attract and the more scorn will be poured upon your head, because as far as the anti-gun activists are concerned, you’re changing the subject. They’re not afraid of _you_, they’re only afraid that you’re enabling the people they _are_ afraid of to get guns. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/362 "2005-03-24T05:50:41Z")
Your whole precept is based upon the mythology that less gun ownership equals less crime; it just isn’t proven to be so. Hell, there’s not even a preponderance of evidence that it is so. And calling people paranoid and selfish doesn’t make it so, either. And yes, I (and the other law-abiding gun owners) _are_ the targets of the “just one more reasonable, common sense gun control law,” as the “10%” aren’t going to apply for gun licenses, the “10%” aren’t going to register their firearms, the “10%” didn’t turn in their assault weapons when they were banned, the “10%” aren’t going to put the mandatory trigger locks on their guns, and the “10%” will continue to carry concealed even after every concealed carry permit is rescinded, for your hypothetical “10%” aren’t true gun owners, they’re illegally armed criminals, who have no right to keep and bear arms. _Prove_ that 10% of the legally armed population is a threat to the rest of society, or drop the claim. Your positon is stuffed with the contradiction, I might say the _lie,_ of the anti-gun arguments: 1. Gun crime/violence is so bad, more restrictions (if not bans) are needed; 2. Guns for self/home defense is a paranoid fantasy of gun nuts. But: If gun crime/violence _is_ bad enough to warrant (in the minds of anti-gunners) more restrictiions, then it is certainly bad enough for the pro-gunners to warrant guns for self/home defense. For [2003](http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?file=/ucr/cius_03/xl/03tbl01.xls), in addition to the 16,503 Murder/Non-negligent manslaughters, there were also 93,433 Forcible Rapes, 413,402 Robberies, and 857,921 Aggravated Assaults. Property Crime came in at a whopping 10,435,523 reported incidents. And yet anti-gunners sniff disdainfully at Gary Kleck’s estimated 2.5 _million_ Defensive Gun Uses per year. I guarantee that those were committed almost entirely by the “10%” (I personally think that number to be much lower), and yet anti-gunners espouse methodology that will only be followed and obeyed by the other +90%! Even as the National Research Council has concluded that there is no evidence that _any_ of the gun control methodologies have had _any_ impact on gun/violent crime. So what’s the point of enacting _more_ gun control when it’s not even shown that the gun control we currently have has even accomplished _anything_? When no causal link between gun control and crime reduction can be shown to exist? When there is strong circumstantial evidence that it is just the contrary? On the other hand, the more “derision and scorn” you heap on the normal, law-abiding gun owners of the United States, the more you link them to criminal activity and in some cases _liken them to criminals,_ the more you classify them a “criminal enablers,” the more you identify armed criminals as “gun owners,” then the less people will listen to _you_ when you claim we need more gun control. Don’t believe me? 1. Check out the NRA’s enrollment figures (here’s a hint: they _ain’t_ going down) 2. Look at what Rosie “Nobody Needs Guns Except My Armed Bodyguards” O’Donnell is doing nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/363 "2005-03-24T06:07:12Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Sorry, all, read too fast and missed this…\* > > **Blowero** , do _not_ change user names in quotes, even to take a jab. Sorry - won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/364 "2005-03-24T06:15:53Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > All you have to do is post a link to your response. Please do it now. Prove me wrong. Show the entire SDMB that I am the person who has been making things up. I’m begging you. Please. Put me in my place. Demonstrate that I am the liar here. I want you to. I’m itching to be taken down a peg. Wow, dude - you’re really into this. I definitely responded to your point, but if it means that much to you, tell me the exact post # and text of what you said that you don’t think I answered, and I’ll try to give you an answer. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/365 "2005-03-24T06:45:26Z")
I can’t find that great logical argument you made, Weirddave. Was is any of these? > [@Weirddave](#): > > Boy, you really are an ignorant son of a bitch. I don’t mean stupid, I mean pig-ignorant, as in “don’t-bother-me-with-facts,-I-don’t-want-anything-to-challenge-any-of-my-ingrained-prejudices,-especially-not-stupid-things-like-the-truth” ignorant. What are you doing on the SDMB anyway? I would think the motto “fighting ignorance” would have the same effect on you as salt has on a slug. > … > Your bluster isn’t hiding your ignorance. > … > Nope, wrong again. I never said I was insulted, simply that your idiotic assumption was wrong, just like everything else you’ve said in this thread. > … > I got you beat by a long chalk in this thread, Skippy > … > …dumb ass. > … > It’s possible to be anti-gun without being a drooling idiot and resorting to nothing but personal attacks too, but if all anyone had to go on was you, nobody would believe it. > … > your knee jerked so hard it smacked you senseless, and you proceeded to jump to a conclusion that took you right off a cliff. Instead of reevaluating what had done and admitting your mistake, you’ve chosen to scream at gravity on the way down. It’s amusing as all hell, but not productive in the least. > … > you will remain an utter moron, and it’s amusing to watch you prove it over and over each time you post. > … > Is reading comprehension something you have a problem with as well as simple reading? > … > Here’s a hint, child. You’re not talking with mommy in these forums > … > Oh, you lying sack of shit > … > You are a fucking liar. > … > You just flushed any credibility you might have had, putz. Which one of those was the incredible logical argument you made that I refused to respond to? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/366 "2005-03-24T07:01:35Z")
Someone back up the thread said that it will take maybe 50 years and several generations to get to where we will be like Canada and Briton. Why ever would we want to be like them? They are the way they are because of their gun control? Their burgeoning crime rates, along with Australia’s. is because of their gun control, … right? Heeeeeeeee Yepper, these are example we want to follow. ( not ) YMMV ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/367 "2005-03-24T11:24:15Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > **ExTank** and **Blowero** , you two need to back away from each other in this thread. You’re both so intent on this punching match you’re staggering toward the edge. Take a couple of steps back, a few deep breaths–both of you–and reconsider how you’re going to handle yourselves in this fight. Don’t worry, Veb! We’re all ignoring Blowero! He’s being shunned, as he adds nothing to the conversation. ExTank agreed a few posts up. WeirdDave, all we need to do is add you to the ignore-the-Blowero convention, and he’ll have nothing to say. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/368 "2005-03-24T11:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Nametag** said: > Gun control and gun ban advocates are quite aware of you, the law-abiding 90%, but they are not targeting you. Maybe you’re right and they are looking at the other 10%, but you know what? They’re having 100% of their _effect_ on me. This makes me very disinclined to support them. > [@](#): > > They’re not afraid of you Now I think you’re wrong. They are afraid of me. They are afraid of someone who believes the Second Amendment and the right it recognizes is every bit as sacrosanct as the First Amendment. That’s why they say things about me sounding paranoid. It’s because they are afraid. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/369 "2005-03-24T13:37:22Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Gun control and **gun ban advocates** are quite aware of you, the law-abiding 90%, but they are not targeting you. Not targeting us? How can you say that? A ban most certainly does affect me and the other 90%. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/370 "2005-03-24T14:13:04Z")
I also have to disagree with Nametag. Criminals get guns, usually in illegal ways, as it is. The recent school shooting could have been prevented by no possible law, as it was a police officer’s own weapon that was used. Theoretically, it could have been locked in a safe, but I know of no children who don’t know the combination and/or location of the keys to their parent’s safes, from casual observation alone. All gun control laws restrict is the sale of guns in legal ways to law-abiding citizens. Well, that, and they provide tools to prosecute people who sell guns in illegal ways, but there are certainly existing laws that do that. What new laws are needed? There is nothing wrong with a gun. It is a tool. There are many things wrong with many people. Unfortunately, we can’t outlaw evil. It never works. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/371 "2005-03-24T15:00:09Z")
Jesus Christ, no matter how many times I say it, you don’t fucking get it. IT IS NOT MY POSITION! I AM EXPLAINING SOMEONE ELSE’S POSITION TO YOU! Not that it matters, because you’re not getting it anyway. **ExTank** , you’re an idiot. You keep redefining the terms in the middle of the debate, so I’m not talking to you any more. **enipla** , what is it about “collateral damage” that you don’t understand? Just because you got hit doesn’t mean you’re the target. **Catsix** , you’re not in the 90%, you’re in the 10% – you’re a frothing psycho. Get help. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/372 "2005-03-24T15:12:03Z")
You can’t keep yourself calm, but you think I’m a fucking psycho? Your opinion seems to be really freaking valid. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/373 "2005-03-24T15:14:19Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Don’t worry, Veb! We’re all ignoring Blowero! He’s being shunned, as he adds nothing to the conversation. ExTank agreed a few posts up. WeirdDave, all we need to do is add you to the ignore-the-Blowero convention, and he’ll have nothing to say. I’m done. Since he has repeatedly declined to produce his great argument, which is no surprise because it doesn’t exist, I’m leaving blowero behind like Arthur riding away from the Black Knight’s head. There’s only so much that one can say to someone who keeps screaming “The grass is red!” Gibberish need not be replied to. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/374 "2005-03-24T15:17:45Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Someone back up the thread said that it will take maybe 50 years and several generations to get to where we will be like Canada and Briton. > > Why ever would we want to be like them? > > They are the way they are because of their gun control? > > Their burgeoning crime rates, along with Australia’s. is because of their gun control, … right? Heeeeeeeee > > Yepper, these are example we want to follow. ( not ) > > YMMV _shakes head sadly_ Dickwad, Brit_ai_n never _has_ had widespread private gun ownership. Hence, if crime rates are burgeoning, it is not because we have banned handguns. We haven’t suddenly made ourselves defenceless and found ourselves reaping the whirlwind. Don’t ever wonder why I really don’t think someone with your powers of reasoning should be trusted with a deadly weapon. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/375 "2005-03-24T15:31:20Z")
It is better that 10 guilty remain free than 1 inocent be persecuted. In this case though, it would be 99.99 percent (lets use some more realistic numbers) of the inocent would be persecuted, so that .01 percent guilty MIGHT be stopped. This is what gun control and gun bans are all about. I disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/376 "2005-03-24T15:31:38Z")
My apologies, Nametag. “I disagree with the position Nametag put forth.” Better? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/377 "2005-03-24T15:40:37Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > It is better that 10 guilty remain free than 1 inocent be persecuted. > > In this case though, it would be 99.99 percent (lets use some more realistic numbers) of the inocent would be persecuted, so that .01 percent guilty MIGHT be stopped. Educate me, then. Is it truly the case in the USA that of every 10,000 gun owners, only one is a criminal? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/378 "2005-03-24T15:52:24Z")
The question, Mal, is how many of those criminals the law might stop. Certainly more than 1/10k americans is a criminal… if not for gun use alone. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/379 "2005-03-24T16:30:21Z")
Understood, E-Sabbath. I’m not _dead_ sure that the law would pull in 9,999 legally held guns for every single illegal, y’see. OTOH I don’t have a dog in this fight, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/380 "2005-03-24T16:31:52Z")
So let’s cut to the chase. I have guns. If you are anti-gun, what should happen to me and my guns? Should my guns be confiscated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=20)