# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/401 "2005-03-26T08:39:09Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Whew! Thank Og for your gun control laws; if I lived down under, I’d feel safer already. :rolleyes: And well you should. While robberies with other weapons have indeed roughly doubled in Australia, the rate has doubled from around 18/100K to 37/100K. Most large American cities have robbery rates in the [hundreds or thousands](http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t3114.pdf) (PDF) per 100 000. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/402 "2005-03-26T08:44:24Z")
Y’all also have [less than 10% of our population](http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/ABS@.nsf/0/1647509ef7e25faaca2568a900154b63?OpenDocument) Hell,[Manhattan has almost half as many people as your entire country](http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-NewYork.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/403 "2005-03-26T08:50:57Z")
Just to make my point clear, America’s problems most likely have more to do with [overcrowding](http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_housing/documents/page/odpm_house_028618.hcsp) than gun control. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/404 "2005-03-26T09:02:35Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Someone back up the thread said that it will take maybe 50 years and several generations to get to where we will be like Canada and Briton. > > Why ever would we want to be like them? > > They are the way they are because of their gun control? > > Their burgeoning crime rates, along with Australia’s. is because of their gun control, … right? Heeeeeeeee > > Yepper, these are example we want to follow. ( not ) > > YMMV Canada’s crime rate is not burgeoning. Well, counterfeiting is on the increase, but even if gun control and crime were related, you’d have quite a time relating gun control and that particular crime. > [@](#): > > Violent crime: Homicide rate continues downward trend > > The violent crime rate has generally declined since the early 1990s after increasing throughout most of the three previous decades. Since 1993, it has fallen 11%, and in 2003, it remained virtually unchanged. > > Most violent crime categories recorded declines in 2003, except for robbery, which increased 5%, and attempted murder, which rose 4%. [http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040728/d040728a.htm](http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040728/d040728a.htm) [Violent crime](http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp) doesn’t seem to be burgeoning in England. [Homicide](http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page40.asp) seems to be, but a disclaimer is provided: > [@](#): > > ``` > * The increase in homicides in recent years must take account of: > > 1. the victims of Harold Shipman, whose deaths occurred some years prior to when they were recorded > 2. the 58 Chinese nationals who collectively suffocated in a lorry en route to the UK in 2000/01 (all 'Manslaughter' offences under 'Homicide') > > * The trend in overall recorded violent crime has been significantly affected by police recording changes, and is in striking contrast to the trend in violence evidenced by the British Crime Survey. > > ``` What makes you think crime rates in England and Canada are burgeoning? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/405 "2005-03-26T09:09:25Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > And well you should. While robberies with other weapons have indeed roughly doubled in Australia, the rate has doubled from around 18/100K to 37/100K. Most large American cities have robbery rates in the [hundreds or thousands](http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t3114.pdf) (PDF) per 100 000. A couple of things:[ol] [li]You need to learn how to count; not a single city in the United States has a murder rate per 100,000 of population in the hundreds, much less the _hundreds of thousands_.[/li] [li]My post had nothing to do with the comparative rates of crime between our two countries, but in the rate-change of violent crime in Australia.[/li] But since you brought it up anyway, [violent crime in the United States is at its lowest level recorded in 20 years.](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm)[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/406 "2005-03-26T09:09:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just to make my point clear, America’s problems most likely have more to do with [overcrowding](http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_housing/documents/page/odpm_house_028618.hcsp) than gun control. I think you’re absolutely right. Is it fair to consider the population of the U.S. in such a manner? Americans don’t live in a population of 280 million, they live in one of many smaller populations. In other words, the effects of crowding in New York only affect New Yorkers, not Floridians. I’m not Australian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/407 "2005-03-26T09:17:49Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] A couple of things:[ol] [li]You need to learn how to count; not a single city in the United States has a murder rate per 100,000 of population in the hundreds, much less the _hundreds of thousands_.[/li] [li]My post had nothing to do with the comparative rates of crime between our two countries, but in the rate-change of violent crime in Australia.[/li] [li]But since you brought it up anyway, [violent crime in the United States is at its lowest level recorded in 20 years.](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm)[/ol][/li][/QUOTE] You need to learn how to read; that says hundreds **or** thousands. Also, I was comparing robbery rates, not murder rates. Your post did have something to do with comparative rates, in an oblique way; you said you wouldn’t feel safe in Australia, but you should because you’re less likely to be robbed there. Regardless of the doubling of the robbery rate, it’s still much, much lower than in just about every urban center in the United States. Except Fort Collins, Colorado, for some reason. Congratulations on lowering the violent crime rate. Now it’s just very high instead of unbelievably high. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/408 "2005-03-26T09:26:10Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > Is it fair to consider the population of the U.S. in such a manner? Americans don’t live in a population of 280 million, they live in one of many smaller populations. In other words, the effects of crowding in New York only affect New Yorkers, not Floridians. Well, you were talking about major cities… > [@The Tooth](#): > > I’m not Australian. Sorry for the misunderstanding, you responded to **ExTank** ’s comment about “your” gun control laws. I didn’t realize you were only addressing the second half of his sentence. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/409 "2005-03-26T11:01:35Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > I think you’re absolutely right. > > Is it fair to consider the population of the U.S. in such a manner? Americans don’t live in a population of 280 million, they live in one of many smaller populations. In other words, the effects of crowding in New York only affect New Yorkers, not Floridians. That is, in fact, not true. On a daily basis, for example, my commute is affected by the daily commute of people in three different states (NY, CT, NJ). If there is a significant delay in any one of those states, I can detect it. Furthermore, for example, the snowbird population of Florida performs mass migrations from NY to Fla and back. The difference can be significant, and create considerable traffic changes. Especially considering the older population now on the florida roads. [http://www.cojoweb.com/earthlights.html](http://www.cojoweb.com/earthlights.html) This is a large photo. Examine the US East Coast. Then examine Alaska. Trust me. We’re crowded. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/410 "2005-03-26T20:17:22Z")
Fair enough, but is the crime rate in your home city affected by population pressure in New York the way New York’s crime rate is affected by population pressure in New York? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/411 "2005-03-26T21:08:50Z")
… yessssss. I _work_ in Queens and the Bronx. I _live_ Up The River. As in, being ‘sent up the river’. The nearest place I could afford a house and still commute to work is two states over, so I’m still in an apartment. I have a short 40 mile daily commute. I know people with a 100+ mile daily commute. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/412 "2005-03-26T23:46:33Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > You need to learn how to read; that says hundreds **or** thousands. Also, I was comparing robbery rates, not murder rates. > > Your post did have something to do with comparative rates, in an oblique way; you said you wouldn’t feel safe in Australia, but you should because you’re less likely to be robbed there. Regardless of the doubling of the robbery rate, it’s still much, much lower than in just about every urban center in the United States. Except Fort Collins, Colorado, for some reason. > > Congratulations on lowering the violent crime rate. Now it’s just very high instead of unbelievably high. :smack: My bad for inadvertantly transposing “of” for “or”; it’s what I get for reading and writing late at night w/o my glasses. 🆒 BUT: you’re comparing moldy apples to rotten oranges. You’re using 1995 American Crime Stats **by City Size** against 2003 Australian Crime Stats **by Nation**. Without a breakdown of Australia’s Violent Crime Rate by Municipality Size for comparison against the United States’ **current stats of the same type of data** , your conclusion is inaccurate as there is no basis for comparison between the selected data sets. And in any case, the real point is that Australia’s Violent Crime Rates are rising dramatically, while the U.S.'s are dropping. How long do you think it will be before the Aussies see those increases in Sexual Assaults, Kidnappings, and Robberies begin to translate into homicides as well? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/413 "2005-03-27T01:27:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, you were talking about major cities… Ever been to Australia? We have these inventions called “Crowded Major Cities” over here too. 😃 With, like, hostile strangers and drugs and all, wouldn’t ya know! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/414 "2005-03-27T01:31:42Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Ever been to Australia? We have these inventions called “Crowded Major Cities” over here too. 😃 With, like, hostile strangers and drugs and all, wouldn’t ya know! So why not provide the crime rates for those major cities against US major cities? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/415 "2005-03-27T01:36:06Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Sarah:** double check your stats. > > [li]Kidnappings/Abductions with a Firearm have increased 92.88%;[/li] > [li]While Robbery with a Firearm has dropped 10.39%, Robberies with “Other Weapons” has risen _106.98%_.[/list][/li] > Whew! Thank Og for your gun control laws; if I lived down under, I’d feel safer already. :rolleyes: Erm, do you honestly think that Australia has a HIGHER violent crime rate in ANY activity than you lot do in the US? Especially those involving guns? I find it interesting that you would feel less safe in Australia than you would in most major populated areas in the US. Carry on sniping. ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/416 "2005-03-27T01:37:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So why not provide the crime rates for those major cities against US major cities? Yes, why not? Be my guest, my Joycean friend. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/417 "2005-03-27T01:40:28Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Yes, why not? Be my guest, my Joycean friend. 🙂 Funny, you talk about sniping, but you make tangential-at-best-comments and then won’t provide a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/418 "2005-03-27T01:43:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Funny, you talk about sniping, but you make tangential-at-best-comments and then won’t provide a cite? Explain precisely how a comparision of Australian violent crime rates per X of pop versus US violent crime rates per X of pop is tangential to a discussion of violent crime. Unless of course you think that only Americans have a right to participate in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/419 "2005-03-27T01:49:58Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Explain precisely how a comparision of Australian violent crime rates per X of pop versus US violent crime rates per X of pop is tangential to a discussion of violent crime. You really should read a thread you’re posting in. [“You’re using 1995 American Crime Stats by City Size against 2003 Australian Crime Stats by Nation. Without a breakdown of Australia’s Violent Crime Rate by Municipality Size for comparison against the United States’ current stats of the same type of data, your conclusion is inaccurate as there is no basis for comparison between the selected data sets.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5991211&postcount=412http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5991211&postcount=412) Moreoever, even if we were looking at similar population centers, there would **still** be other variables to take into account. Now you want to provide a cite, or keep sniping? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/420 "2005-03-27T01:53:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You really should read a thread you’re posting in. And you really should read you own posts. You recently requested precisely this specific and evidently (according to you) useless comparison. Any other rude and unfounded comments you want to make to a complete stranger? Otherwise, I think we’re done. Go back to talking about the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=22)