# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/621 "2005-04-15T16:22:51Z")
:eek: Where’s my gun? … Oh yeah. Doh! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/622 "2005-04-15T16:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > we stopped some way short of pinching the entire fucking continent I’d say that had more to do with insufficient time, not enough colonists, and opposition to your goals from the French and Spanish than it did with any tender regard on your part for the natives. > [@](#): > > All of which is a little tangential to the silly supposition that in this day and age you need massive private gun ownership to protect yourselves from the risk of invasion. It’s just a romantic tradition based on the wonderful memory of the time you threw the Evil Empire™ out. You haven’t needed an armed militia, well-regulated or not, in, ooh, bloody ages. Define “ages.” We had no conscription until our Civil War. Much of that conflict (and the preceding ones) was fought (on both sides) by militia units that provided their own uniforms and weapons. I’ve always been particularly fond of the [Zouave](http://reunion.omnica.com/LargePics/zouave.jpg) uniforms. Privatelyfunded and armed millitia units also fought in the Spanish American war. You might have heard of an outfit call the [Rough Riders](http://www.bartleby.com/51/) and the toothy fellow who commanded them. No militia units were actually sent to WWI AFAIK, though there were recruiting drives in various locales. Ditto for WWII. Speaking of WWII, gun owners here in the US were solicited to [donate guns](http://www.talonsite.com/armory/Articles%5CpapSelfDefense_and.htm) for you lot to arm your Home Guard. We had Home Guard-type organizations here, too, luckily we didn’t have to go begging to arm and equip them. > [@](#): > > That’s not to say it never happens - only that we don’t consider it prevalent enough to need to go armed. We didn’t, by and large, even when the law did permit private handgun ownership. When you consider the size and population of the US, it isn’t all that common here, either. However common it is, or isn’t, I have the option to own and use a gun for self-defense. You don’t. Rationalize it however you like, I have options open to me that you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/623 "2005-04-15T18:21:56Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > You have a personality. Don’t sell yourself short. > 😃 Sorry, couldn’t resist. :wally > > Actually, Finn, your difficulty is that you jumped into a debate about personal choices, dragged politics into it, and exaggerated to the point of lying about your knowledge of firearms. > > Your first post to me was completely off the wall and un-called for. You continued to try to support your ‘position’ (whatever it might be) with non-sequiturs and vague references. > > If you have something to contribute, or would like to ask questions, fire away. The SDMB (Straight Dope Message Board) is a wonderful resource. > > If you want to insult someone, the Pit is where to do it. But you better have a hell of a lot of ammo. The more you post ,the more you repeat yourslf,and the more your mind seems to become confused…I made it clear my knowledge of hand held and other guns was by my no means expert…by this I mean there were many who knew more than I. What i did say was, i had quite a degree of experience in the use there off so please dont try to mislead,read the posts.What benifit would it serve me lying about my expertise in firearms,especially with all you experts hanging about? Please get real!, And as to my reply,to your first question which you seem so offended about,i believe i offered you an apology,now i dont intend to crawl so accept it or not,i really don’t give a fuck. On non sequiturs…please use simple ENGLISH, you seemed disposed to impress,vague reference means much the same or vague relevance if you like. Your lead in to this reply is vague…perhaps it’s an AMERICAN attemp at irony or wit which you so sadly lack. Your replis are boring. Yes sarcasm is just one more service i offer. slan;agusinteach. rsvp is unnecessary… ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/624 "2005-04-15T18:30:18Z")
> [@racinchikki](#): > > What’s my opinion? What argument have I lost in this thread, much less had “shot down in flames?” > > There are two differences between Mark Twain and you. One is that Mark Twain had the good sense to hire an editor so that people could read what he had written. The other is that Mark Twain was a clever and engaging writer whose words were worth having edited and read in the first place. Please go fuck off, you are so dull and wearysome. Do I look like a people person? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/625 "2005-04-15T18:32:46Z")
OK, I’ll bite: In what capacity have you used firearms in the past (ie law enforcement, sport, target shooting, etc.) Have you been awarded any certificates or awards in target shooting or won any competitions? What sort of firearms have you used the most (make, caliber, etc.)? I think it will be very helpful to the gun experts in this thread to talk with you if they have this basic information about your ‘expertise in firearms’, which I have no doubt you’re able to provide. Thank you and, as we say over here, Have a Nice Day! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/626 "2005-04-15T18:47:57Z")
> [@finn007](#): > > On non sequiturs…please use simple ENGLISH, you seemed disposed to impress,vague reference means much the same or vague relevance if you like. > . You seem to be saying that “non sequitur,” “vague reference” and “vague relevance” all mean the same thing. If you think so, you need to get a dictionary or something. “Non sequitur,” “vague reference” and “relevance” are all words that come up fairly often in debates and if you don’t know what they mean you’ll be at a loss. And seriously, tell me what my position on gun control is, what statements I’ve made about it and which arguments of mine have been shot down in flames. I want to know what you think I think. I also want to know if you actually read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/627 "2005-04-15T19:14:38Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Europe does indeed have great beer compared to that odd-tasting stuff you insist on drinking. Additionally, the inmates are not running the asylum. Despite not being able to mosey on down and shoot ourselves a burglar, we live in remarkably little fear of violent crime in our own homes. That’s not to say it never happens - only that we don’t consider it prevalent enough to need to go armed. We didn’t, by and large, even when the law did permit private handgun ownership. We make beer here that I’ll put up against any in the world, it’s just brewed by the small breweries and not Anheiser Busch. As to the rest, the issue isn’t weather or not one lives in fear-I don’t, not in the least, but the idea that IF a criminal were to attack you, you would be arrested if you used a gun to defend yourself. That’s just plain nuts. How many people are armed, what local gun control laws are, etc… these are all beside this particular point. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/628 "2005-04-15T20:14:04Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > We make beer here that I’ll put up against any in the world, it’s just brewed by the small breweries and not Anheiser Busch. > > As to the rest, the issue isn’t weather or not one lives in fear-I don’t, not in the least, but the idea that IF a criminal were to attack you, you would be arrested if you used a gun to defend yourself. That’s just plain nuts. How many people are armed, what local gun control laws are, etc… these are all beside this particular point. All well and good apart from the fact that **Malacandra** is from the UK, while you’re using what I’ve said. I’m from Ireland not the UK. In the UK if the gun was legal and there was just cause the gun ower is good to go. The only recent case in the UK was the Martin case. Tony Martin’s house was basically one big booby trap. He lay in wait for burglars and the boy he killed was running away from the house when he was shot in the back. No reason to kill so he went to jail. If he’d killed the wanker in the house he’d most likely have been golden. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/629 "2005-04-16T01:50:41Z")
> [@racinchikki](#): > > You seem to be saying that “non sequitur,” “vague reference” and “vague relevance” all mean the same thing. If you think so, you need to get a dictionary or something. “Non sequitur,” “vague reference” and “relevance” are all words that come up fairly often in debates and if you don’t know what they mean you’ll be at a loss. > > And seriously, tell me what my position on gun control is, what statements I’ve made about it and which arguments of mine have been shot down in flames. I want to know what you think I think. I also want to know if you actually read the thread. \*\*Non sequitur,are you in logic or grammar. \*\* I want to know what you think I think. Now hold on , be fair, ach fuck who could answer that,hold on, maybe i should get a dictionary or something. I think it would have to be a something, BUT I DON’T KNOW WHAT!! Now you are asking, BILLY THE RAM, this… “And seriously, tell me what my position on gun control is” Why of course, you are again! PARDNER Please for fuck sake don’t ask me to read your dull,boring,punctuated marked posts. They are so full of bollix,give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/630 "2005-04-16T02:05:23Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > OK, I’ll bite: In what capacity have you used firearms in the past (ie law enforcement, sport, target shooting, etc.) Have you been awarded any certificates or awards in target shooting or won any competitions? What sort of firearms have you used the most (make, caliber, etc.)? > > I think it will be very helpful to the gun experts in this thread to talk with you if they have this basic information about your ‘expertise in firearms’, which I have no doubt you’re able to provide. > > Thank you and, as we say over here, Have a Nice Day! 🙂 Of course,i go through an examination with your GUN EXPERTS 😃 ACH FUCK GIVE IT A REST…Have you been awarded any certificates or awards in target shooting,aye yo oh, 😃 Thats a cracker. 😃 Don’t be such a fuckin’ ass hole, well i’ll clarify, ah “what sort of torture do you use” 😃 Best laugh i’ve had on this site Thank you and, as we say over here, feck aff ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/631 "2005-04-16T02:54:23Z")
Crimoney, finn007, I’ve done my level best to ignore you through this thread but you _really_ are an incoherent douchebag. Do please feel free to improve the thread by exiting from it. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/632 "2005-04-16T03:15:16Z")
There’s another saying we have over here: “All hat and no cattle.” You’ve been given plenty of chances to put up or shut up. You won’t put up, so shut the fuck up. Slan yerself, dude. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/633 "2005-04-16T03:30:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Crimoney, finn007, I’ve done my level best to ignore you through this thread but you _really_ are an incoherent douchebag. Do please feel free to improve the thread by exiting from it. Oh dear SCUMPUP(sounds about right) Dreadful you doing your level best and still you cant resolve it, but for a dead beat scumpup, you fuckin well deserve it. now please fuck off…you silly little prick And after all the effort of you doing your level best, this is it… _Do please feel free to improve the thread by exiting from it_ fuck, but you dopey fuckers have no sense of humour,timing,wit or irony. You have a divine gift of changing wine into water ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/634 "2005-04-16T03:42:29Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > There’s another saying we have over here: “All hat and no cattle.” > Oh fuck you again,THE ITCH. > > You’ve been given plenty of chances to put up or shut up. You won’t put up, so shut the fuck up. > > Slan yerself, dude. Sounds like MR BUSH, “All hat and no cattle.”\* ALTHOUGH ALL HAT AND NO BOTTLE WOULD BE MORE ON THE MARK.\* You won’t put up, so shut the fuck up…now that shows a bit of spirit,that i can take Oh yes i’ll tell you my LIFESTORY, but it’s really too sad, you wouldn’t enjoy it. bye, bye. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/635 "2005-04-16T04:50:09Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > OK, I’ll bite: In what capacity have you used firearms in the past (ie law enforcement, sport, target shooting, etc.) Have you been awarded any certificates or awards in target shooting or won any competitions? What sort of firearms have you used the most (make, caliber, etc.)? > > I think it will be very helpful to the gun experts in this thread to talk with you if they have this basic information about your ‘expertise in firearms’, which I have no doubt you’re able to provide. > > Thank you and, as we say over here, Have a Nice Day! 🙂 Well, yes, as a wee teen I received several awards in NRA sponsored Youth Leagues, shooting air rifles and .22s. In addition to the hunting I did as a youth (there’s nothing like the taste of meat that you’ve shot and butchered yourself; the best restaurant steak pales by comparison). I grew up around guns; I was introduced to them at the age of five or six (can’t remember) by the adults (male and female) of my family, and taught gun safety before I could do arithmetic. The only sport I learned earlier than guns/shooting was swimming (I was swimming practically before I could walk). In my family, guns were treated as tools; and just like chainsaws or other powertools, _respect_ was ingrained from the beginning. I learned how to clean and maintain guns because in my family, one was taught to respect the value of well-maintained tools. It’s why we have family keepsakes that are over 100 years old that are in perfect functioning condition. Other than a rather large scorpion, and some wild dogs (the first in Saudi Arabia, the second in Iraq), and possibly some Iraqi troops\* (Gulf War I), I’ve never fired a shot in anger at another living being; the !@#$% dogs almost got me shot by my own side! During the brief period that I had a license for concealed carry, I’ve only “flashed” a handgun once. I didn’t “clear leather,” that is, pull my pistol from its holster. It was around 4:00 A.M., in a very crime-ridden area of downtown Dallas (Texas). I’ve fired _thousands_ of rounds at paper targets, with handguns, shotguns, and rifles. I’ve never accidentally discharged a weapon. I keep one clip of one handgun loaded, “just in case.” But it is doubtful, in the unlikely event of a late-night/early-morning home intrusion, that I would be able to get it out of my gun safe in time to employ it. Instead, I have hanging on my bedroom wall a perfectly functional katana, as well as a [Mercenary Sword]([http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mercenary.htm=Mercenary](http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mercenary.htm=Mercenary) Sword) (very sharp and remarkably well balanced) and a [Basket-Hilt Claymore](http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1701&step=4) (also very sharp, if less well balanced). While I’m no “swordsman,” I’m proficient enough to make any “uninvited guests” extremely sorry they ever poked their head into my lair. Not that I really worry about that; the worst crime I’ve seen in [Maryland Heights](http://www.marylandheights.com/) is “exhibition acceleration” by teen-aged fuck-knuckles who believe their sack-size is equivalent to their car’s horsepower rating. My gun collection is: [Winchester Model 70 Laredo (BOSS)](http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/nov96deerrifle.html) in 7mm Remington Magnum, with a [Bushnell/Banner 6-18x50mm](http://www.chuckhawks.com/bushnell_banner_6-18x50_syn.htm) scope, and a bipod. The thing’s a nail driver. I’ve yet to reach this rifle’s theoretical maximum accuracy. The fault lies with me. [Winchester Model 94](http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=003C) in .45 Colt. [Olympic Arms PCR-99](http://www.olyarms.com/?page=m1_k4b) in 5.56mm (the model number changed over the years). [Ruger Mini-14](http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5802&return=Y) in 5.56mm. Possibly one of the sweetest shooting rifles in my collection. [Stoeger Arms “Uplander” Double-Barreld Shotgun](http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/large.tpl?Image=large-uplander-youth.jpg) in 12ga., 2 3/4 in. I accidentally let both barrels go at once one time, and sported a nasty bruise for several weeks. [Mossberg 590](http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm), #50665, with pistol grip, folding stock, side-saddle shell holder, tactical sling, laser sight, and tactical light; I call it “Sarah Brady’s Nightmare,” or just “Sarah” for short. My only gun with a “name.” An extremely “evil looking” shotgun. My very first handgun: [Colt Peacekeeper](http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976438634.htm) in .357 Magnum. I’ve shot bowling pins with this pistol, open sight, at 25 yards. [Taurus PT-99](http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0800/812.htm) in 9mm. A very accurate and controllable weapon, at a reasonable price. I’ve added Pachmayr Grips. [Springfield V-10 Ultra-Compact](http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2824.htm) in .45 ACP. Mine has a blued, vented upper and stainless lower, and I’ve added Crimson Trace grips. A very nasty bundle. **Two** [Ruger Vaqueros](http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=532&return=Y) in .45 Colt. Both are lightly engraved, and have custom Sambar Stag grips. [Colt Gold Cup National Match](http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/GoldCup.asp) In .45 ACP. The picture doesn’t do mine justice, which has a stainless lower receiver and blued slide, intricately engraved and inlayed with gold. Pics (.jpeg) upon request. By the standards of the real “gun gurus” of The Straight Dope, I’m a piker. A weekend hobbyist. \*The Iraqis were engaged with a Fabrique Nationale M-240 7.62mm machinegun, coaxially mounted next to a Rhein-Metall M-256 120mm cannon; as these troops were engaged by the better part of an Armored Battalion, I can’t with any accuracy say that I actually shot any of them, but I was laying down suppressive fire. IMO, the M-240 (and its variants) is one of the finest machineguns currently in service. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/636 "2005-04-16T12:55:33Z")
Actually, my question was addressed at **finn0007** , but that’s exactly the sort of thing I was wanting him to contribute (obviously, he can’t). Thanks! Sounds like you have a nice hobby and are a responsible and thoughtful gun owner. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/637 "2005-04-16T16:11:11Z")
> [@finn007](#): > > Oh dear SCUMPUP(sounds about right) > > Dreadful you doing your level best > and still you cant resolve it, > but for a dead beat scumpup, > you fuckin well deserve it. > > now please fuck off…you silly little prick > > And after all the effort of you doing your level best, > this is it… > > _Do please feel free to improve the thread by exiting from it_ > > fuck, but you dopey fuckers have no sense of humour,timing,wit or irony. > > You have a divine gift of changing wine into water Wow, an insult based on my username. I am sore wounded by your rapier wit. No sense of humour, irony, or timing? If you are judging us in those categories based on the reactions to your posts, then I’d say you are using the wrong testing instrument. Your posts would have to contain some examples of humour and/or irony or demonstrate good timing (comedic or otherwise) for them to be useful in that respect. As it stands, your work is about as useful for judging our grasp of particle physics as it is for determining how well we appreciate humour, irony and timing. Water and wine are both good things. Which is more valuable is situational. You, I’d say, aren’t good for much beyond turning both to piss. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/638 "2005-04-16T18:16:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Wow, an insult based on my username. I am sore wounded by your rapier wit. > > No sense of humour, irony, or timing? If you are judging us in those categories based on the reactions to your posts, then I’d say you are using the wrong testing instrument. Your posts would have to contain some examples of humour and/or irony or demonstrate good timing (comedic or otherwise) for them to be useful in that respect. As it stands, your work is about as useful for judging our grasp of particle physics as it is for determining how well we appreciate humour, irony and timing. > > Water and wine are both good things. Which is more valuable is situational. You, I’d say, aren’t good for much beyond turning both to piss. Here we go again, have to stop meeting lke this,people may talk. Your comments don’t deserve replies, except “Water and wine are both good things. Which is more valuable is situational. You, I’d say, aren’t good for much beyond turning both to piss”, hi thats quite good, and shows that the more contact you have with people like me – endowed with wit,satire, timing , humour and of course, sarcasm is one more service i offer–The more you will improve. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/639 "2005-04-16T18:22:55Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > There’s nothing in that article to suggest that the shooter(s) legally purchased and possessed their firearms; the police are still investigating the motive behind the shooting. Reducing any availability of guns (not necessarily eliminating it altogether, but certainly seriously reducgin) could help prevent stuff like this. Motive for something like this is easily guessed. I’m bored, I have no life, I have a gun, let’s have some fun. > [@](#): > > You don’t know shit. 30,000 a year? Since [when?](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm)’ Since some people count all deaths by a bullet, not just the homicide, but accidents, suicides (a decent number) and deaths by guns for which a motive couldn’t be identified. Your site only lists deaths that are known to be homicides. > [@](#): > > And another reason NOT to live in a socialist, statist Europe. If it weren’t for the beer, you guys wouldn’t be good for much of anything at all. Yeah, whatever. Gun accidents kill more children than people die of guns in my country, even if you compensate for size. Nevertheless, I’m fairly certain you’d be happier where you are. Lot’s of Dutch people would be happier in the states too, not because of the guns, but because of the space and the nature (though of course they shouldn’t move to New York City). For me though, this discussion isn’t about personal taste or preference, but about a dry bit of fact-finding whether guns’ nett attribution to society is positive or negative. And right now, I’m thinking mostly negative. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/640 "2005-04-17T00:08:47Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Reducing any availability of guns (not necessarily eliminating it altogether, but certainly seriously reducgin) could help prevent stuff like this. Motive for something like this is easily guessed. I’m bored, I have no life, I have a gun, let’s have some fun. You keep making this assertion. That does not mean that it’s true. You can say it over and over until the cows come home. That still won’t make it true. Let’s see some cites, can we? Perhaps evidence of a state (since by your own words this is a uniquely American problem, I’d like the evidence to come from somewhere in America please) that enacted stricter gun laws which subsequently had gun violence go down. Do you have one? In fact, if you look, you’ll find that it’s states that loosened CCP requirements that saw reduction in gun crimes, something that deals a death blow to your pet theory. > [@Arwin](#): > > Since some people count all deaths by a bullet, not just the homicide, but accidents, suicides (a decent number) and deaths by guns for which a motive couldn’t be identified. Your site only lists deaths that are known to be homicides. And some people, those interested in looking at the actual issues involved and not in dishonestly increasingly the numbers just so they can scream “Won’t somebody please think of the children???”, don’t. Are you a seeker of truth or merely another propagandist? > [@Arwin](#): > > Yeah, whatever. Gun accidents kill more children than people die of guns in my country, even if you compensate for size. Do you have a cite for this? Seriously, I’d like to see it. It might be true, but the fact is that the actual number of children killed in gun accidents is vanishingly small (I’m talking about gun accidents- not situations like the girl shot in NYC referenced above) and could have been prevented by responsible gun ownership. > [@](#): > > For me though, this discussion isn’t about personal taste or preference, but about a dry bit of fact-finding whether guns’ nett attribution to society is positive or negative. And right now, I’m thinking mostly negative. Sure you are, because you came into this with a set of preconceived notions misconceptions and have determinedly defended those notions and misconceptions against all the facts and counter points that have been presented to you. It’s OK, we all have blind spots and ignorant prejudices, yours is about policy and laws in a foreign country, as blind spots go, it’s a pretty harmless one to have (for you personally) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=33)