# What's With The Guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/101 "2005-03-01T00:49:56Z")
I have heard many good explanations and descriptions of the gun owners love of their guns. Like any thing felt deeply, it must be composed of many factors. I have seen several mentions of the Zen-like experiance derived from target shooting. To clear your thoughts, control your breathing, focus your attention completely, control stance, posture, fluidity of movement has to be experianced to be understood. I ride a motorcycle also and this to has been described as “If I have to explain it, you wouldn’t understand.” On the self-protection aspect: If someone threatens the safty of my family I would do what was necessary to prevent it. I practice and have those tools necessary to ensure that if such a situation were to be forced upon me, I’ll win. The Police are in law enforcement and were never intended to proviede personal protection. I have been first hand witness to numerous events were the Police were told of the threats made and responded “There’s nothing we can do until a crime has been committed”. They can investigate your murder, but not prevent it. Recently, in a near-by town, a Blockbuster Video was robbed at gun point. A young man working there was threatened with death. From then on, his father went to pick him up at closing, arriving a short while before hand. Sure enough, the robbers came back, this time with a shotgun. The father, a CWP (Concealed Weapons Permit) holder, drew his weapon, killing one and wounding the other. Recently, there was a girl in Texas kidnapped and later found dead. The killer was caught because, after killing her and dumping the body, he tried to rob a RV store and found that the owner was armed as well. The killer was caught when he showed up at a hospital for treatment of a gun-shot wound. I enjoy firearms for the beauty of the machined, perfectly fitted and functioning parts. The steel and the fine wood. The Zen-like state of calm and clear thought in practicing. The “competing with myself”, as someone else pointed out. I have owned guns my whole life. There is rare occasion when one is very far from my reach. In those thirty-somthing years, I haven’t had to use a firearm aginst another person… but I have put one in hand until I was sure of the situation and my family was safe. I have taught shooting and gun safety to family and friends and they all felt better knowing about them and confident in their ability to safely handle a firearm. Get thee to the range. If I have to explain, you wouldn’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/102 "2005-03-01T01:05:08Z")
Honestly, Rebekkah, you could have just read up on our past gun rights discussions to get your questions answered. I see the same people on both sides with pretty much the same answers. It gets tiring after a while, having to explain ourselves to people from another country who look down on us or just don’t understand. Sam ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/103 "2005-03-01T01:06:39Z")
P.S.- I have never used one, but like Nicodemus, have had one at the ready until I was sure the situation was in-hand and controlled by the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/104 "2005-03-01T01:07:59Z")
That should read “I have never used one in **self-defense** …”. Sheesh. So much for proofreading. My editor should be fired. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/105 "2005-03-01T01:14:32Z")
To **GaWd** I cannot explain how much it heartens me to read of an informed gun owner in California. Pray for Peace, and keep your powder dry. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/106 "2005-03-01T01:17:56Z")
Nico- I am a Liberal. A died-in-the-wool fucking Democrat, tree-hugging, salamander-saving, peace-praying leftie. My most recent position was as a legal assistant to one of Northern California’s only gun rights attorneys. I have owned and been around guns all my life. My whole family is pretty much like this, with the exception of myt father, who was mildly conservative. We’re out there, even california democrats support gun rights. Shocking, I know, but I like being the black sheep. 😃 Sam ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/107 "2005-03-01T01:26:07Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > I think the most interesting form of self-deception of responsible gun owners justifying owning a gun is not just that they innocently believe that they will be guaranteed to be responsible at any time in their life. It is the idea that everyone will be responsible. > > Also, another fine example is the one you gave yourself - the burglar shooting your husband’s cousin may very well have done so simply because he assumed that there was a good possibility your husband’s cousin had a gun, and the scenario was going to be shoot or be shot. Such a scenario pretty much never happens here in the Netherlands - burglars just run whenever they are detected. The 84 year old lady is another fine example. Can you really trust her with a gun at that age? Who’s to say she becomes demented without you noticing, and shoots you one day. > > There, I’ve said my piece. I’m sure I won’t change anyone’s mind, but there are so many lives being lost to guns each year, I can’t stand it. Why does it always have to take someone’s next of kin to get shot before people realise the truth of these words? (and not always even then, as this thread too demonstrates). I was responding to the op’s question of why someone would own a gun. Since I own guns and she asked for gun owners to weigh in, I answered her with my own situation. We originally brought the gun into the house because of a specific threat. The police could do nothing to protect us. We felt we needed to do something to protect ourselves. Speaking of statistics, more women are killed that have restraining orders out on someone, than women who do not have them. Under the circumstances we felt it was quite possible the nutty guy would break into our home and try to harm husband or me. So we discussed all our options, and felt having a gun in the house could be a way to protect ourselves if that happened. I took classes, learned to correctly use it and we discussed other times the gun might be used. I did not say in anyway I thought all people should do this. I did not say I thought the 85 year old woman should have had a gun. I did not say my husband’s cousin would have lived had he had a gun, but I do think he would have had more of a chance. I think it is great that in the Netherlands the burglars don’t have guns and just run away when caught. I wish it was that way here, but it isn’t. We have a different set of circumstances here. Do I think all people who own guns here are responsible? No. Do I think at this point we can ban guns and that would solve the problem of the wrong people having guns? No. All I can do is look at the situation I have, and decide for me what is best. I imagine if I lived in the Netherlands I would have no desire to have a gun in my home. I would happily store it at the range. But living here, with so many guns out there, I feel it is my choice on whether I have one at home or not. If I had children in the house, I might feel differently. Then the risk might outweigh the benefit. But for our situation having a gun is a responsibility we chose to take. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/108 "2005-03-01T01:29:28Z")
I intentionally am replying before reading the entire thread in an attempt to actually answer the OP. I will give a general answer and then a gun by gun answer: Generally I own guns because I enjoy the fun and the sport aspects of shooting. I have never hunted and I feel no desire to kill things (but if you bring me some dead stuff I will probably eat it). Guns are amazing little machines that do an astounding job and I am fascinated by them. My Beretta 96 Brigadier .40: I bought this gun for personal defense (yes I carry and yes I have a permit). This gun was selected by me because it is the best suited (for me) and partially because of the use of the Beretta 92 (the 9mm version) by the military and various Law Enforcement agencies. As far as being suited for me the gun is most impressive in it’s safety design (3 things would have to go wrong at the same time for this gun to discharge with the safety on). My Mossberg 20G pistol gripped shotgun (not the one pictured): Is purely for home protection, a 20G kicks so lightly that it is (I think) best suited for defending my home (should that need ever arise). I have a flashlight fitted to it with a pressure switch so that the light does not stay on. My Thompson/Center Arms .22 “Classic” LR: Was bought purely for sport (paper targets and tin cans quake in my prescence). It is fitted with a nice Leupold scope and is great for medium distance target shooting (I can group 30 rounds under an inch at 75 yards all day long). My Ruger Mark II pistol: See above but this one wears an Ultradot red dot scope and is used for closer distances. My North American Arms .22LR mini revolver: Was bought for those times when carrying the Beretta is just not practical (this thing is tiny). I refer to this thing as “my dog walking gun”. My Intratec Tec 9 (not in linked picture): Is a complete POS “assault weapon” that I bought the day the President told me I couldn’t have one. Here is an old photo: [http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=164131&sort=7&thecat=500&password=](http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=164131&sort=7&thecat=500&password=) In conclusion “I’d rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it” Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/109 "2005-03-01T01:42:56Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Nico- > > I am a Liberal. A died-in-the-wool fucking Democrat, tree-hugging, salamander-saving, peace-praying leftie. My most recent position was as a legal assistant to one of Northern California’s only gun rights attorneys. I have owned and been around guns all my life. My whole family is pretty much like this, with the exception of myt father, who was mildly conservative. > > We’re out there, even california democrats support gun rights. Shocking, I know, but I like being the black sheep. 😃 > > Sam To **Rebekah** - You see, as a Republican in the south (a bit left of center and not a sterotypical Southern Conservative) I can respect and defend GaWa’s right to hug salamanders and pray for trees 😉 without asking for him to change or to justify his beliefs. I need not understand or agree on all points to recognize his RIGHT to them. To G **aWa** - I like the nick name- I was Nico all thru Junior High and High School ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/110 "2005-03-01T01:45:26Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > To **Rebekah** - You see, as a Republican in the south (a bit left of center and not a sterotypical Southern Conservative) I can respect and defend GaWa’s right to hug salamanders and pray for trees 😉 without asking for him to change or to justify his beliefs. I need not understand or agree on all points to recognize his RIGHT to them. > To G **aWa** - I like the nick name- I was Nico all thru Junior High and High School Sorry… I meant GaWD. And I did it TWICE! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/111 "2005-03-01T01:55:32Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > I think the most interesting form of self-deception of responsible gun owners justifying owning a gun is not just that they innocently believe that they will be guaranteed to be responsible at any time in their life. It is the idea that everyone will be responsible. Responsible gun owners don’t think every one is safe with a gun. That’s why there is so much of a push for gun safety. And education. And why we, or at least I believe that the anti-gun lobby is working at cross purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/112 "2005-03-01T01:58:17Z")
**js\_africanus** , most women are raped by someone they know, and they’re not pulled from a car into a back alley. It’s usually in a situation, like when someone comes over your house and you’re both sitting on the sofa, watching TV. Or after a date. I think when **Rebekkah** said she didn’t just want to hear “self-defense” or “for fun!” because she wanted more detailed answers. WHY is it fun? WHAT is it about self-defense? Am I right, **Rebekkah**? Now, if sometime in the future, we could have _Star Wars_ style blasters, with both a stun and a kill setting, I personally wouldn’t mind having one. Mostly for the stun effect. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/113 "2005-03-01T02:05:39Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > There, I’ve said my piece. I’m sure I won’t change anyone’s mind, but there are so many lives being lost to guns each year, I can’t stand it. Why does it always have to take someone’s next of kin to get shot before people realise the truth of these words? (and not always even then, as this thread too demonstrates). Arwin, we lose quite a few more lives to alcohol and automobiles than guns each year, I’ll wager (I’m not going to dig for a cite, but I did say “I’ll wager”). Yet alcohol isn’t banned. We tried that. Cars aren’t banned. We even have bars that the sole purpose is to drink alcohol, and the primary means of getting to and from them is by automobile. Does that make sense? They are legal. Each time someone’s next of kin dies from an alcohol related traffic accident, we have a great upwelling of indignity. It’s a terrible shame, I’m not mocking. I am, at this very moment, drinking a beer. I own 2 cars. I have no intention of getting in one. I own guns, I have no intention of getting one out. There are cases of people dying every day doing something extraneous to basic human survival. It happens. Lots of people die in light plane accidents, for example. There is no need for anybody to have a light plane in my opinion, and I think all of these light plane fatalities are senseless. I’m not, nor never will, rally for the banning of light planes. Probably more people die from guns than light planes, but tell that to the “next of kin”. Again, I’ll leave the cite on statistics to you. There are truths to lots of words, in lots of different circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/114 "2005-03-01T02:13:19Z")
I think that people would be safer if guns were banned (and ideally nonexistent). Thankfully, most of us live in countries in which personal freedom is valued over personal safety. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/115 "2005-03-01T02:14:45Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > I think the most interesting form of self-deception of responsible gun owners justifying owning a gun is not just that they innocently believe that they will be guaranteed to be responsible at any time in their life. It is the idea that everyone will be responsible. Not eveyone who is issued a driving permit and operates a car is responsible. Should all cars be outlawed? > [@](#): > > Also, another fine example is the one you gave yourself - the burglar shooting your husband’s cousin may very well have done so simply because he assumed that there was a good possibility your husband’s cousin had a gun, and the scenario was going to be shoot or be shot. **What???** So, in your mind her cousin was at fault for scaring the poor guy that **BROKE INTO AN OCCUPIED HOME WITH A GUN**??? > [@](#): > > Such a scenario pretty much never happens here in the Netherlands - burglars just run whenever they are detected. Isn’t this the part of the world were Prostitution, marijuana, and opium are sold publicly in certian areas? The connection between conditions and mind-sets between these two Nations seems to have little correlation > [@](#): > > Basically, having guns around is adding more efficient means to the ‘means, motive and opportunity’ triumvirate. Sure, the motive is one of the prime reasons for crime to happen, but guns provide a means that requires a lower threshold for life-threatening violence to occur. Interestingly, the phrase “means, method and motive” are commly used here to describe the criminals, typically murderers situation, not the victims > [@](#): > > I’m generally weary of statistics, but in this case, the statistics don’t lie. More guns mean more gun-related deaths. Look at all the western nations, look at how many guns there are, and how many gun-related deaths there are, and you’ll see the correlation is strikingly clear. More traffic deaths as well. Where is the anti-car lobby when you need it? > [@](#): > > But in most other parts of the country, especially urban areas, guns really have no place in society other than in the hands of police fighting criminals. Even if only the criminals had guns, less people would die. In the LA and Miami riots, the Police stood back and let it run it’s course without regard for the non-participants and victims. As far as “less people would die” …true. The victim count would remain the same but the criminal death rate would improve markedly. > [@](#): > > Sure, you might be held up, but there is less fear driving a criminal to shooting you. Mostly, criminals would stick to shooting each other. What??? We don’t want the gun-weilding thug to ever feel that he is endange or in anyway threatened by the merciless storeowner or woman leaving work at night. > [@](#): > > And if everyone had guns, poor people would still need money, they’d just be less hesitant to shoot first,"… " In short, I have yet to see one pro-gun argument stand to scientific fact, except that it sometimes works as a placebo - you _feel_ safer. But the scientific facts also show that you almost always _are_ less safe. And we’re not talking about small numbers here either. Almost as many people in the U.S. die from guns as from traffic accidents. Both tens of thousands each year. Tens of thousands of Americans die from guns each year? Bullshit! Does that supposed fact include law enforcement shootings? If the cops didn’t carry guns perhaps the criminal would not be a scared and there would be even less shooting. Sorry to everyone else if this eemed a bit of a rant. Some of the crap stated here just couldn’t go with reply ---
**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/116 "2005-03-01T03:00:32Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > ``` > Recently, in a near-by town, a Blockbuster Video was robbed at gun point. A young man working there was threatened with death. From then on, his father went to pick him up at closing, arriving a short while before hand. Sure enough, the robbers came back, this time with a shotgun. The father, a CWP (Concealed Weapons Permit) holder, drew his weapon, killing one and wounding the other. Recently, there was a girl in Texas kidnapped and later found dead. The killer was caught because, after killing her and dumping the body, he tried to rob a RV store and found that the owner was armed as well. The killer was caught when he showed up at a hospital for treatment of a gun-shot wound. > > Get thee to the range. If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand. > > ``` The examples you give are what frightens me about guns. Vigilantism and unrestrained violence, from untrained civilians in the name of protection and criminals alike. And, I’m considering the gun range idea after reading this thread, if I ever find someone to take me. It might be worth it just to learn how a gun works, should I ever come across one. > [@GaWd](#): > > Honestly, Rebekkah, you could have just read up on our past gun rights discussions to get your questions answered. I see the same people on both sides with pretty much the same answers. It gets tiring after a while, having to explain ourselves to people from another country who look down on us or just don’t understand. GaWd… I could have just searched the archives, but I wanted to interact, sorry for the rehash. I also want to add that while I don’t undertand, I’m trying, and I most certainly don’t look down on any of the gun owners here who’ve so kindly tried to expand my understanding. And, on your behalf, I’ve fired your editor and hired him myself. Any future errors may be blamed on this. > [@Unclviny](#): > > My Beretta 96 Brigadier .40: > I bought this gun for personal defense (yes I carry and yes I have a permit). This gun was selected by me because it is the best suited (for me) and partially because of the use of the Beretta 92 (the 9mm version) by the military and various Law Enforcement agencies. As far as being suited for me the gun is most impressive in it’s safety design (3 things would have to go wrong at the same time for this gun to discharge with the safety on). Without any malcious intent on my part, I’d like to ask you to elaborate. You carry a gun? On a daily basis? Are you in law enforcement? Or is the permit just to carry to and from… > [@Guinistasia](#): > > I think when Rebekkah said she didn’t just want to hear “self-defense” or “for fun!” because she wanted more detailed answers. WHY is it fun? WHAT is it about self-defense? > > Am I right, Rebekkah? Hit the nail on the head, thank you! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/117 "2005-03-01T03:15:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think when **Rebekkah** said she didn’t just want to hear “self-defense” or “for fun!” because she wanted more detailed answers. WHY is it fun? WHAT is it about self-defense? As someone who has no dog in this hunt, I find this line of questioning on Rebekkah’s part quite obviously disingenuous and misleading. People have already explained, in quite a number of different ways, why they find guns fun. We’re on the third page of this thread and I’ve seen it explained a dozen times or more; because it’s fun, it’s a physical challenge, it’s like a sport, just like anything else you want to be good at. Some posters have even tried to put it in anthropological context. If Rebekkah (or you, guin) have missed that, then you haven’t read the entire thread. You’ve gotten VERY detailed answers. What the hell else do you want? I don’t think Rebekkah is really interested in understanding, because she wouldn’t still be asking the same questions on Page 3 that have been answered, again and again and again and again. What she’s been doing instead is disputing people’s very polite responses. If Rebekkah wants to denate gun control or gun ownership then let her pose that debate and have at it. But she’s doing it in a backhanded way, meant to put people down; to ask “WHY do you like X?” and, when people explain why they like X, continually dispute all the reasons and then claim a hundred posts later that your question was never answered. In the past we have had this exact same thread about enjoying sports, about having children, and about a number of other things, and every time the poster is a weasel who asks the question, then rebuts everyone’s honest opinion about why they like X, and then a week later whines that noboody answered their question. A regular poster started a thread about “why doesn’t anyone here like me” and when people explained why, he kept disputing everything they said. Hell, _I_ don’t like guns. I’ve fired lots of them (I was a soldier) and I was pretty good at it, but I dislike them. But the people in this thread have certainly explained to MY satisfaction why they want to have guns. It’s clear to me. What’s your comprehension problem? Here’s a hint; if you want people to explain why they like guns, or football, or Britney Spears, or rock climbing, or anything, the only two things you should say are: 1. “Please tell me why you enjoy (subject)” and, after it is explained, 1. “Thank you, that is most informative.” Otherwise, _shut up!_ Am I right, **Rebekkah**? Now, if sometime in the future, we could have _Star Wars_ style blasters, with both a stun and a kill setting, I personally wouldn’t mind having one. Mostly for the stun effect. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/118 "2005-03-01T03:15:38Z")
> [@Rebekkah](#): > > The examples you give are what frightens me about guns. Vigilantism and unrestrained violence, from untrained civilians in the name of protection and criminals alike. I read something years ago that said, of people who had been shot mistakenly (i.e., innocent victims of aimed fire), a greater percentage was shot by police officers than civilians. Sorry, I don’t remember where or when I read it, nor what the current percentage is. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/119 "2005-03-01T03:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The examples you give are what frightens me about guns. Vigilantism and unrestrained violence, from untrained civilians in the name of protection and criminals alike. The case of the father at the video store is neither vigilantism nor untrained. The CWP requires a training course on the related gun laws, when you are allowed to shoot, gun handling and safty, a certification on the range, and a background check both at the State-wide level and a fingerprint check through the FBI. He was simply protecting his child from the unrestained violence you seem to imply refers to a father protecting his son. I have understood your inquiry to date and regret the reply’s that seem more hostile than informative. I hope the anti-gun propaganda does not keep you from seeing the difference. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/120 "2005-03-01T03:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > **Rebekkah** said: > Vigilantism and unrestrained violence, from untrained civilians in the name of protection and criminals alike. Self defense is not vigilantism. > [@](#): > > You carry a gun? On a daily basis? Are you in law enforcement? Or is the permit just to carry to and from… I carry one. I am not in law enforcement. My license entitles me to carry concealed in nearly any location other than a school, court house, federal building, airport or post office. > [@](#): > > **Rick Jay** said; > As someone who has no dog in this hunt, I find this line of questioning on Rebekkah’s part quite obviously disingenuous and misleading. It is disingenuous because every time her questions are answered she refers to the answers as juvenile or outright slams people who use firearms for self defense as if we are cold blooded killers. Look what she said about me in a previous post where I described chasing off an intruder in my home at 2:30 am with a pistol. That he was ‘just a burglar’ and didn’t deserve to pay the ultimate price for wanting to rob me. She didn’t start this thread to learn. She started it to fight. She also told me to shut the fuck up and get out of her thread if I didn’t want to come up with ‘better’ answers than ‘because they are legal items that I enjoy having.’ She ignores any post that she can’t just say is juvenile, and thinks that people who want to exercise self defense are vigilantes. Somehow, I’m not believing her cries of ‘I started this thread so I could learn.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298.md?page=7)