# What's With The Guns?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [February 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298 "2005-02-28T14:59:25Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/121 "2005-03-01T03:33:16Z")

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> [@Rebekkah](#):
>
> Without any malcious intent on my part, I’d like to ask you to elaborate. You carry a gun? On a daily basis? Are you in law enforcement? Or is the permit just to carry to and from…

Nothing malicious at all, folks who are genuinely interested are a rarity as usually it’s the same old “anti argument” and that gets very tiring. I carry a gun all of the time when I am home (because of where I work carrying here is not an option). A Cop in my motorcycle club was the final straw that got me to start carrying, he told me “the Police are not in the crime prevention business” and he told me that my personal safety is my responsibility.  
The world has changed in the last few years. We had a deal in my neighborhood where a high school kid had been saying to his friends that he was going to drive a new Lexus to school on the last day, so that morning he walks down the street to a house with a new Lexus in the driveway, knocks on the door and when the homeowner answered he began shooting. He found the keys and drove the car to school (about 10 minutes away) and was arrested an hour or so later, this guy killed 2 people and gave up his freedom for a 10 minute car ride and folks who make decisions that badly scare the crap out of me. (this is but 1 example and sadly there are many, many more).  
I went through an extensive background check and was fingerprinted and photographed and attended a mandatory training class before getting my permit, this was all in Texas where the anti’s would have you believe they will give a permit to anyone. I can carry just about everywhere (except bars, schools, hospitals and Federal buildings and a few others).

Unclviny

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**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/122 "2005-03-01T03:35:10Z")

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> [@RickJay](#):
>
> As someone who has no dog in this hunt, I find this line of questioning on Rebekkah’s part quite obviously disingenuous and misleading.
> 
> People have already explained, in quite a number of different ways, why they find guns fun. We’re on the third page of this thread and I’ve seen it explained a dozen times or more; because it’s fun, it’s a physical challenge, it’s like a sport, just like anything else you want to be good at. Some posters have even tried to put it in anthropological context. If Rebekkah (or you, guin) have missed that, then you haven’t read the entire thread. You’ve gotten VERY detailed answers. What the hell else do you want?
> 
> I don’t think Rebekkah is really interested in understanding, because she wouldn’t still be asking the same questions on Page 3 that have been answered, again and again and again and again. What she’s been doing instead is disputing people’s very polite responses.
> 
> If Rebekkah wants to denate gun control or gun ownership then let her pose that debate and have at it. But she’s doing it in a backhanded way, meant to put people down; to ask “WHY do you like X?” and, when people explain why they like X, continually dispute all the reasons and then claim a hundred posts later that your question was never answered. In the past we have had this exact same thread about enjoying sports, about having children, and about a number of other things, and every time the poster is a weasel who asks the question, then rebuts everyone’s honest opinion about why they like X, and then a week later whines that noboody answered their question. A regular poster started a thread about “why doesn’t anyone here like me” and when people explained why, he kept disputing everything they said.
> 
> Hell, _I_ don’t like guns. I’ve fired lots of them (I was a soldier) and I was pretty good at it, but I dislike them. But the people in this thread have certainly explained to MY satisfaction why they want to have guns. It’s clear to me. What’s your comprehension problem?
> 
> Here’s a hint; if you want people to explain why they like guns, or football, or Britney Spears, or rock climbing, or anything, the only two things you should say are:
> 
> 1. “Please tell me why you enjoy (subject)”
> 
> and, after it is explained,
> 
> 1. “Thank you, that is most informative.”
> 
> Otherwise, _shut up!_
> 
> Am I right, **Rebekkah**?

Sigh.

Here we go again.

I have spent most of this thread explaining why I asked the question. I have rarely followed up with repsonses because I found them largely enlightening, and when I did have questions, I asked them.

If I wanted people to post IMHO without engaging their ideas at all, this would have been an IMHO thread.

I think I’ve acknowledged quite openly that there were ideas posted here I hadn’t considered. My interest here is not to debate gun ownership, as I’ve stated again and again, for fucks sake.

Here’s a good reason for the question. In my early education, I held some fairly staunch ideas, (pro-choice! anti death-penalty! etc) without really understanding WHY I felt that way. It occured to me yesterday that I’ve been anti-gun ownership (although not vocally) in my mindset, and I have never talked to people who owned guns. Since I saw the potential for this thread to go off the deep end, I put it in the pit. I don’t think I was disingenuous. I never claimed the question wasn’t answered, in fact MANY people have posted responses that I felt were enormously helpful. I do however take exception to the idiots who popped into my thread to say “because I can, na na na na na na na”, like children. Remember, I never asked you to justify to me why you should own a gun… who the fuck am I to ask that. I asked willing participants to explain to me the allure. I acknowledged my bias from the onset to clear up the question, not to smack gun owners over the head with my heavy handed moralism. If you didn’t want to answer the question, all you had to do was stay the fuck out of my thread. Furthermore, I’m not the one who has a comprehension problem. :rolleyes:

Anyone else want to shit in my thread?

For those people who took my question seriously, thank you.

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**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/123 "2005-03-01T03:40:48Z")

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[/QUOTE]  
Hell, _I_ don’t like guns. I’ve fired lots of them (I was a soldier) and I was pretty good at it, but I dislike them. But the people in this thread have certainly explained to MY satisfaction why they want to have guns. It’s clear to me. What’s your comprehension problem?

> [@](#):
>
> **Rebekkah** - Contrary to earlier discussion, most gun owners I know don’t care that someone _doesn’t_ own a gun. That sort of intolerance is better suited to the other side  
> Now, if sometime in the future, we could have _Star Wars_ style blasters, with both a stun and a kill setting, I personally wouldn’t mind having one. Mostly for the stun effect.

[/QUOTE]

**RickJay** - I am beginning to think your thoughts may be on track. I hope not.  
In keeping with your signature- Can someone tell me how to set my Laser Printer to Stun?

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**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/124 "2005-03-01T03:43:12Z")

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You’re not getting anywhere right now.

You may not like hearing that, but you’re coming off like you came here to have your preconceived notions reinforced by shooting down the same answers again and again. Why can’t you just accept that people just enjoy firearms the way other people just enjoy riding horses or just enjoy cake?

As for telling people to shut up and get the fuck out of your thread, and calling people names for explaining to you the usefulness of firearms in self defense, fuck you. You asked. You asked repeatedly. You claimed you wanted to understand.

Now you’re giving off the impression that the only reason you asked for more detail about self defense is so that you could call people like me, and like the father in **Nicodemus** ’s example and **Grits** husband’s cousin, vigilantes and reactionaries.

You might get better answers if you got off the high horse.

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**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/125 "2005-03-01T03:43:26Z")

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> [@unclviny](#):
>
> Nothing malicious at all, folks who are genuinely interested are a rarity as usually it’s the same old “anti argument” and that gets very tiring. I carry a gun all of the time when I am home (because of where I work carrying here is not an option). A Cop in my motorcycle club was the final straw that got me to start carrying, he told me “the Police are not in the crime prevention business” and he told me that my personal safety is my responsibility.  
> The world has changed in the last few years. We had a deal in my neighborhood where a high school kid had been saying to his friends that he was going to drive a new Lexus to school on the last day, so that morning he walks down the street to a house with a new Lexus in the driveway, knocks on the door and when the homeowner answered he began shooting. He found the keys and drove the car to school (about 10 minutes away) and was arrested an hour or so later, this guy killed 2 people and gave up his freedom for a 10 minute car ride and folks who make decisions that badly scare the crap out of me. (this is but 1 example and sadly there are many, many more).  
> I went through an extensive background check and was fingerprinted and photographed and attended a mandatory training class before getting my permit, this was all in Texas where the anti’s would have you believe they will give a permit to anyone. I can carry just about everywhere (except bars, schools, hospitals and Federal buildings and a few others).
> 
> Unclviny

Thanks for clarifying, Unclivny. Perhaps this is a shocking level of ignorance on my part, but I didn’t realize you could carry a gun in public for general protection and purpose… I was under the impression only law inforcement could do this. The story you tell is frightening indeed. I was thinking about this OP over dinner tonight and it occured to me that perhaps the reason I can’t imagine reacting to violence with a gun is centred around my uncomfortable relationship with them? To clarify, perhaps I could understand better guns for self defence if I knew how they worked? I’m still not clear in my head about all this, but I keep thinking the average citizen should not have to use a gun to protect himself, and I get a tad uncomfortable when when I think about guns in public. I wonder if much of this comes from my seeing them as some kind of “dark and dangerous” force… I’m really seriously reconsidering hitting a shooting range to get a little bit of first hand understanding.

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**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/126 "2005-03-01T03:46:42Z")

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> [@Rebekkah](#):
>
> Here’s a good reason for the question. In my early education, I held some fairly staunch ideas, (pro-choice! anti death-penalty! etc) without really understanding WHY I felt that way. It occured to me yesterday that I’ve been anti-gun ownership (although not vocally) in my mindset, and I have never talked to people who owned guns.

That is very admirable of you to seek out opinions counter to the ones you hold. That is the spirit of what this board is all about. I am afraid that if you want to understand the appeal of guns for yourself, you need to go shooting just one time. Most people love it although some get scared. Guns can be objects of art in their design and surgically precise in their use. If you can find someone that owns one or their is a shooting range, ask them to show you how to shoot. I don’t think you will regret it even if it is not your cup of tea.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/127 "2005-03-01T03:50:32Z")

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> [@catsix](#):
>
> You’re not getting anywhere right now.
> 
> You may not like hearing that, but you’re coming off like you came here to have your preconceived notions reinforced by shooting down the same answers again and again. Why can’t you just accept that people just enjoy firearms the way other people just enjoy riding horses or just enjoy cake?
> 
> As for telling people to shut up and get the fuck out of your thread, and calling people names for explaining to you the usefulness of firearms in self defense, fuck you. You asked. You asked repeatedly. You claimed you wanted to understand.
> 
> Now you’re giving off the impression that the only reason you asked for more detail about self defense is so that you could call people like me, and like the father in **Nicodemus** ’s example and **Grits** husband’s cousin, vigilantes and reactionaries.
> 
> You might get better answers if you got off the high horse.

I do think that pulling a gun and shooting a burglar is reactionary. However, I don’t think I called Nicodemus a vigilante, I said his examples were representations of what I fear about guns. I don’t think ordinary citizens should be able to take justice in their own hands or be put in a position to defend themselves using a gun, but I know that it happens. These kind of stories are what scare me.

Also, I never asked you to justify to me why you should get to have a gun. Popping in to my thread to give a snarky nyah nyah response was rude. So yeah, then get out of my thread. If you have nothing to contribute, and I consider “because I can” on the level of nothing, then why bother posting unless you are trying to stir up shit?

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**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/128 "2005-03-01T03:56:00Z")

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> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> I think when **Rebekkah** said she didn’t just want to hear “self-defense” or “for fun!” because she wanted more detailed answers. WHY is it fun? WHAT is it about self-defense?

How the hell can you explain why something is fun? It just IS. It’s _fun_. It makes a noise that is fun. It creates a smell that is fun. Focussing and trying to aim properly is fun. That’s like trying to explain why cake tastes good - it just DOES. “It’s fun” is a perfectly legitimate answer as far as I’m concerned.

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**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/129 "2005-03-01T03:56:34Z")

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A Gun is a tool just like a Hammer or a Dishwasher, it does a job. A Gun is not some evil thing waiting for a chance to jump up and cause mayhem, I think that anti’s are (Caution, painting with a giant brush here!!!) generally speaking scared of Guns because they don’t know much (or anything) about them and it’s Human nature to dislike things that you don’t understand.  
The Gun crowd doesn’t do itself many favors though, there are a lot of “mall ninja’s” and “Gun store Commando’s” in this world and they give us all a bad reputation.

Unclviny (who can have calm, civilised talks about Guns forever)

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**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/130 "2005-03-01T03:58:32Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **Rebekkah** said:  
> I do think that pulling a gun and shooting a burglar is reactionary.

I think that defending my life against harm is my right as a human being.

> [@](#):
>
> I don’t think ordinary citizens should be able to take justice in their own hands or be put in a position to defend themselves using a gun, but I know that it happens. These kind of stories are what scare me.

I don’t think that I should have to be in a position where I need to defend myself from someone who might kill me, but so long as that possibility exists, I’m going to have the best possible tool available to handle it.

> [@](#):
>
> Also, I never asked you to justify to me why you should get to have a gun.

You asked why, and I told you. I own them for no reason other than that I _want to_.

> [@](#):
>
> Popping in to my thread to give a snarky nyah nyah response was rude. So yeah, then get out of my thread.

I gave you the real answer. You didn’t like it, so you decided to act like a bitch and call me juvenile and tell me to get out of ‘your thread.’ This is the Pit. You’re going to have to deal with answers you don’t like, and you’re going to have to deal with being told you come off like an asshole for asking a question knowing you’re going to snipe at people for their answers. You did know that before you asked, didn’t you?

> [@](#):
>
> If you have nothing to contribute, and I consider “because I can” on the level of nothing,

It seems like you consider anything that’s not your prejudiced anti-gun bullshit to be ‘nothing’.

> [@](#):
>
> then why bother posting unless you are trying to stir up shit?

That’s kind of what I’m wondering about you. Why did you bother asking the questions knowing that the answers most people would give - enjoyment and self defense - would lead to you calling them juvenile, vigilantes, or reactionaries? Seems to me like you were spoiling for a fight.

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**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/131 "2005-03-01T04:20:52Z")

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**Rebekkah** - Two final thoughts before bed.  
First, I did not have the impression you were calling me those things (vigilante, etc.) and I regret the degree to which this has inclded some uncalled for name calling by some posters.  
Second, I thought you could use closure. The example of the father and son: well as I said, one robber was killed and one was wounded and taken to the hospital. And yes, there was a manslaughter charge leveled… aginst the surviving robber! He is in jail charged in the death of his co-robber because, here, if you are in the commission of a capital felony that results in death, of a store-owner, a by-stander, a cop, or YOUR PARTNER IN CRIME, you are the one charged. I add this because I read that were you are people can be arrested and charged for shooting an intruder in their own home. This mind-set is as difficult to understand and it appears our’s may be for you.  
I hope you follow through with finding somone knowlegable to give you some instruction and take you to the range. I predict that, once you have gunpowder in you blood, you’ll be back. Either way, thanks for asking.

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**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/132 "2005-03-01T04:46:02Z")

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> [@Rebekkah](#):
>
> To clarify, perhaps I could understand better guns for self defence if I knew how they worked?

Um… the physical mechanics?  
Essentially a controlled explosion propells a slug down a barrel and then it dumps its kinetic energy into a target causing hydrostatic shock and/or ‘tumbling’ through the body cavity, ripping it to pieces.

The ontology of their self defense function?  
Guns are, of course, lethal protection. But there are, of course, times when lethal force is called for in self defense situations.

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**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/133 "2005-03-01T05:18:27Z")

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> [@catsix](#):
>
> \<snip\>Why can’t you just accept that people just enjoy firearms the way other people just enjoy riding horses or just enjoy cake?  
> \<snip\>
> 
> You might get better answers if you got off the high horse.

What you don’t seem to get is that **Rebekkah** is coming from a Canadian perspective, and we truly do think of guns and gun culture differently here. It is a strange thought to me that people enjoy guns for the sake of guns. I’m not saying it’s better or worse, simply that it is **different**. It sounds like a lot of you were raised with the idea of guns for self-defense and home protection, as well as recreation. We simply weren’t, and I think that is what Rebekkah is questioning here - the United States gun culture, versus how we were raised in Canada regarding guns.

Like I said earlier, I wasn’t raised to think of guns as evil or as a toy, but as a tool.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/134 "2005-03-01T05:29:27Z")

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I own my grandfather’s service pistol. I don’t have any other guns, so far. I shoot two or three times a month, usually about fifty rounds. It’s fun. It keeps my skills up to reasonable. I can hit a man sized target reliably every time at forty feet, and a head sized target reliably every time at twenty. (non moving targets.) Having that level of skill is pleasing to me. Using it would not be pleasing.

I generally carry my pistol to the range and back. Other than that it sits in a concealed location in my home, loaded. No children have access to it. I keep a hundred rounds in my home, fifty in magazines, one magazine in the pistol, and six on a belt with the holster. In Virginia we have legal open carry, and for a while that was fine. But it got cold. I put on my coat, and became a felon. I decided that was a bad thing. So, I applied for, and was issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun. OK, concealing a Colt M1911 is almost an oxymoron. But, I now don’t have to worry about inadvertently committing a felony by putting on my coat.

I have little interest in carrying the pistol in normal travel, or business. I generally don’t fear the world that much. Having the pistol has not made me feel like walking around ready to shoot people. I don’t usually carry it anywhere but to and from the range, or to a friend who has specifically expressed an interest in seeing it. Several times, I have invited friends to join me at the range, and a few times, I have joined others. It’s fun. It is also interesting to try other weapons.

I have seen another pistol that I found very interesting. A thirty eight caliber revolver, with a built in laser designator. Very practical, for an old fart like me. You see, I cannot hold the pistol still at full arm extension. I generally have to compensate, and fire as it falls on the tremble cycle. With the laser, though, I can hold the pistol in close to my body, since I don’t have to sight down the barrel. I am able to be as accurate at fifty feet with it as I am at twenty with my Colt. At twenty feet, I can draw smiley faces on the target, although I have to reload since it only holds five rounds. That kind of accuracy is very pleasing. If I ever get to the point that six hundred dollars for a second pistol doesn’t seem extravagant, I just might buy one.

Why? Because hitting what you shoot at is a pleasing thing. Missing sucks.

Now ask me why I am currently still trying to spend a hundred dollars on genuine 999 fine silver bullets for my 45.

## Tris

“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ~ Carl Jung ~

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/135 "2005-03-01T06:23:26Z")

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Okay, fine. You want to tell me I’m stupid and condescending? Stupid, no. Condescending? Well, I wasn’t, but if that’s the level you want to play on, I can go there.

> [@Rebekkah](#):
>
> Roland, I can’t believe you are actually offering this argument. Are you seriously suggesting that “because I can” and “because it’s fun” illuminates my knowledge level in any way? I could talk to a four year old if I wanted those answers.
> 
> I rather think these answers were given because the people who use guns were expecting an attack on the reasons they proffered, and got their backs up.

Illuminate your knowledge level as to _what_? They answer your question! Why do you own a gun? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you play Monopoly? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you masturbate? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you and your friends listen to music and dance around like fools? Because we can and it’s fun. What the fuck do you want? A seventeen-page thesis? You asked why people wanted a gun. Some people want them because they’re fun. _People like to do fun things_. That is a valid answer to your question. I’m sorry you don’t like people’s reasoning behind things they do for their own amusement, on their own time, that do not affect you in the least, but for fuck’s sake, don’t INSULT them for it. “Juvenile” indeed.

> [@](#):
>
> Actually, I said I didn’t understand the self defense reason, as it seem impractical to me, and I outlined some reasons why. I didn’t say “I think using guns for self defense is stupid, nyahhhh”.

I didn’t say you did. What I said was: “Then you got another answer – ‘for self defense’ – and dismissed that as impractical and equally unworthy of consideration”. Yes, you gave some reasons for your dismissal. That would be why I simply mentioned that statement of yours rather than attacking it as unreasonable.

> [@](#):
>
> Pardon me for expecting that I receive reasoned and articulate responses at SDMB. I’ll head back to Asshats at Ernies now. I have no “stake” in any answer given, beyond serious curiousity and a desire to further my understanding of something I do not understand. I’ve not a fundamentalist… I can change my mind.

Well what the hell kind of answer are you going to consider “reasoned and articulate” when you’re discussing something that people do in large part as a hobby and you won’t accept “because I like it”? Justify stamp collecting to me. Give me a well-reasoned and articulate rationale for playing GameCube. Present me with 500 words why anyone would ever choose to build model trains. Go! Do it! And “because they enjoy it” doesn’t count!

I’m glad you have an open mind about personal gun ownership (if in fact you do), but like every other subjective topic, it’s something you have to form your own opinion of based on experience. Going back to the movie example, everyone on the boards could give you a detailed assessment on why they liked/disliked a particular movie, and its individual strengths and flaws. None of it, though, could “change your mind” about whether or not _you_ like the movie, because you’ve never seen it. You don’t _have_ an opinion to change. Your own admitted total lack of experience with gun ownership renders anything anyone might tell you here meaningless to you…especially, again, if you’re going to dismiss half of it anyway.

> [@](#):
>
> As I said, I’m NOT forcing anyone to justify shit all to me. Post if you wanna.

Of course you’re not. It’s not like you’re holding a gun to their heads…after all, why the hell would you ever consider even having one?

> [@](#):
>
> Q. I haven’t seen Bruce Almighty and the prevailing opinion in my circle of friends is that it sucked, so I’m leaning towards that opinion too. Can someone here tell me why it doesn’t?
> 
> See, I can play irrelevant extrapolation too!

Extrapolation from what? A valid analogy? That actually seems rather relevant to me, especially when you’ve just illustrated my point. Why are you forming an opinion of a movie you haven’t seen? Is using the opinions of others in lieu of personal experience SOP for you? Do you think any “opinion” thus formed holds any value?

> [@](#):
>
> I’m sorry, but I long ago claimed the title of Captain Condescendor for myself.

Well, the part of my post to which you were responding with this bit was sincere. But, if you’re going to interpret my posts as condescending, I suppose I might as well earn it.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/136 "2005-03-01T06:24:07Z")

</div>

**Rebekkah** , I think you are being very disingenuous WRT **catsix** ’s intruder. Notice that she did NOT shoot the intruder. Let me ask you a question: Same situation, a guy breaks into **catsix** ’s home, she points a gun at him and tells him to leave. Suppose instead of leaving, he had advanced towards her. Can you reasonably say that at that point she would not be in danger for her life? I don’t see how you can. Given that, if she had shot and killed the man, it’s not reasonable to classify it as anything other than self defense. Not reactionary. Not vigilantism. Self defense. What’s wrong with defending yourself?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/137 "2005-03-01T07:27:33Z")

</div>

It’s kind of funny. I was considering giving **Roland** a pat on the back for a thoughtful, rational, and civil post that actually honestly tried to explain things nicely to **Rebekah** , and then she goes and **flips the fuck out** on him.

**Rebekah** can’t seem to decide whether she’s open-minded and willing to learn, or rudely dismissive of any honest answer to her question.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/138 "2005-03-01T07:35:27Z")

</div>

> [@Rebekkah](#):
>
> He’s a burglar, right? He’s not threatening you directly?

I doubt he was carrying a sign advertising his intentions. It’s quite reasonable to interpret “strange man kicking your door down” as a physical threat.

> [@](#):
>
> And you get to meet out the ultimate justice for his crime by shooting him? Jesus, that’s reactionary.

As has been pointed out, nobody was shot. The moral of the story is: killing someone is not the only way to defend oneself with a gun. Your belief that they are “solely manufactured to kill” is erroneous.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/139 "2005-03-01T08:39:01Z")

</div>

> [@Johnny L.A.](#):
>
> Since **blowero** apparently does not know of such a thing as a ‘search engine’, and since, by his request for a citation that there really are people out there who fear the government wants to take their guns, and since I really am such a nice guy, I’ve decided to help him out.

Maybe you just popped in from another planet, but around here, if you make an assertion, YOU back it up. You don’t say “do your own research”.

> [@](#):
>
> The guy who put up [this website](http://www.geocities.com/bigmike_75/essays/e/guncontrol.html) seems to think that the government wants to take away people’s guns.
> 
> The one who put up [this website](http://www.mcsm.org/genocide.html) also thinks that there are people looking for a total ban.
> 
> [Here’s another one](http://www.wmsa.net/pubs/sierratimes/030123-lang_where_gun_control.htm):
> 
> In a nutshell: I said that there are some people who believe that the government wants to take away people’s guns. **blowero** indicated he didn’t believe it.

Wrong again. You said:

> [@](#):
>
> But many people in government want to take away people’s guns.

THAT was the statement for which I asked for a cite. In addition, I never said I _didn’t believe_ anything; I merely asked you to back up your assertion that “many people in government want to take away people’s guns.”

The fact that your cites are blatant gun-nut blogs aside, you _do_ realize that none of your cites are people in government, right? (Unless that last one is; it’s pretty much just a rant, so maybe something about the government is buried in there - who knows.)

> [@](#):
>
> Now, I never said that the government wants to confiscate firearms.

Incorrect. You did say it, and I quoted you above.

> [@](#):
>
> I said that _some_ people _believe_ it is so. And there are a few cites to prove it.

You said _both_ things. But my response was only in regard to the statement about the government.

> [@](#):
>
> So fuck you, **blowero**.

Why don’t you shoot me with your big manly gun? Would that make you feel good? Would it make you feel macho?

> [@](#):
>
> Now it’s _your_ turn to prove that there is no one who believes that the government wants to take away guns. Honestly, are you so fucking lazy you couldn’t do a search yourself? Or are you just so anxious to pick a fight that you have to take an _easily provable_ statement and ask for a cite?

If it’s so easily provable, why can’t you do so?

> [@](#):
>
> And as for pursuing happiness: Perhaps you would like to enlightenus as to what _you_ define as the pursuit of happiness? Probably not, if your previous posts are an indication.

Don’t know what you mean about “previous posts”, but ‘pursuit of happiness’ is from the Declaration of Independence:

> [@](#):
>
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It doesn’t just mean, “Go nuts and do whatever you feel like as long as it gives you pleasure”. Are you really that dense?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-guns/292298/140 "2005-03-01T11:08:27Z")

</div>

> [@Duke of Rat](#):
>
> Arwin, we lose quite a few more lives to alcohol and automobiles than guns each year, I’ll wager (I’m not going to dig for a cite, but I did say “I’ll wager”).

It’s about 40.000 for cars (the leading cause of death), and 30.000 for guns.

[http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0764212.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0764212.html) (guns)

[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/17/national/main563703.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/17/national/main563703.shtml) (cars)

> [@](#):
>
> Again, I’ll leave the cite on statistics to you.

More in this post: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5668432&postcount=44](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5668432&postcount=44)

> [@](#):
>
> There are truths to lots of words, in lots of different circumstances.

But gun owners typically seem interested only in their own (circumstances). I cannot shake this observation, no matter how hard I try. I _do_ understand the _fun_ of owning and using a gun. I’m just suspicious of what people tell themselves to justify indulging themselves, because they tell me the same things and they don’t _click_, they _blow up_ under close scrutiny.

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