# What's with the hatred some have for the US Postal Service? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391 "2012-08-13T17:48:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/41 "2012-08-13T20:22:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It seems to me you haven’t offered _any_ actual problem with the Postal Service. I’m confused why someone who “worked in the DM industry for years” would hold in such contempt the very institution that made his job possible. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/42 "2012-08-13T20:23:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It seems to me you haven’t offered _any_ actual problem with the Postal Service. I’ve offered several, but here’s a new one: It’s just such a waste. Think about it. The third largest employer in the US consists of over a half million people driving trucks around the country carrying sacks of paper. There’s no reason to do this. Send a damn email. Think about how much good we could accomplish if those people were doing something that added value to society. Think about how many trees would be saved if we didn’t print all of that junk mail. Think about all the fossil fuel we wouldn’t be burning driving all those planes and trucks around filled with paper. It’s just a waste. It exists because of inertia. Think about this. If the post office didn’t exist today would we build it? Of course not. Because it’s not needed. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/43 "2012-08-13T20:24:07Z")
Since no one’s really asked it directly, a question for **Debaser** and those who agree with him (which is no one who’s posted to this thread so far; this is just in case): do you believe that a private postal service (or a company currently in existence) would offer postal coverage (geographically, I mean) on par or better than the USPS for the prices the USPS offers if the USPS did not exist? If so, who and how? If not, why is this a desirable outcome? Another: do you accept the argument given by many on this thread that current private courier services would be worse and/or worse off without the USPS because of their own use of the post office? If not, why not? Sorry, one set more: how widely do you think physical mail is used today? What kinds of people use it? Do you think this rate should be lower? You appear (and correct me if I’m wrong) to think that the Internet is universally available and obsequious enough that no one should ever need to use physical mail. And a general factual question for anyone: would abolishing the postal service entirely require an amendment to the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/44 "2012-08-13T20:24:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s run “as if it were” a business, per the cite. I’m saying if that’s true, why not spin it off and make it private? I’m sure the folks running the PO would hate that. I mean, they wouldn’t have to go forward to Congress pleading for a 3 cent price hike, and come away with a requirement to pre-fund the retirements of workers who haven’t even been born yet. You want to know why we still have post offices? People want them. They use them. They get important letters from them, send letters from them, get packages. They are reliable and easy to use. If they didn’t want mail, they could suspend their service, take down their mailbox, and not ever get mail anymore. Edited to add the following question. Do YOU have a mailbox? ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/45 "2012-08-13T20:26:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve never had this problem once in my life. Have you? What was the zip code? 49831 - Rural upper pennisula Michigan. UPS/Fedex won’t delivery to my parents’ home there. If something needs to be delivered that way, it has to be delivered to one of their neighbors. In addition, UPS charges an extra $3.25 for delivery to sparcely populated areas. Total charge, for a 1lb packet, delivered to a neighbor - $15.30 for UPS, standard delivery. Total charge, for a small flat rate box delivered to the mailbox - $5.35 for USPS Now why would I want to get rid of a service that gives me better delivery at a cheaper cost, without any cost to the taxpayers? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/46 "2012-08-13T20:27:33Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’m confused why someone who “worked in the DM industry for years” would hold in such contempt the very institution that made his job possible. Just to clarify, I’ve been out of that industry for quite a while now. But, yes, it’s possible for someone to choose the correct policy even if it personally impacts them in a negative way. Example: I own a home with a mortgage, and I deduct the interest when I itemize my taxes. But, I’m in favor of removing the mortgage deduction because it’s basically a tax on renters and retirees who paid off their homes. More importantly it just generally isn’t fair and doesn’t make a lot of sense. So, I’m opposed to it even though removing it will be a hit to me financially. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/47 "2012-08-13T20:33:38Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > What do you consider to be “excessive pay and benefits”? And since it’s entirely self-funded,\* why do you care how much they make\*? Would you be complaining about their pay salaries if those same employees were making the same amount of money at, say, FedEx? > [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > My fair would be that if the Post Office were privatized, a CEO would figure it could be _more_ profitable by cutting services to small rural area. I like the fact that there is service delivery even in a small town in Alaska. There’s the problem, no CEO to rake in millions in salary and options. All that excessive pay is supposed to be limited to the job creating profit increasing CEOs 😉 Also, although it may be run like a private corporation, it suffers from too much government regulation by congress. Privatization could kill two birds with one stone - decreased governmental regulation of business and one less government agency… ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/48 "2012-08-13T20:38:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m sure the folks running the PO would hate that. I mean, they wouldn’t have to go forward to Congress pleading for a 3 cent price hike, and come away with a requirement to pre-fund the retirements of workers who haven’t even been born yet. Good points. I hadn’t even thought to post this yet, but it’s actually a good argument for privatization. Making it run like any other business would remove the shackles of congress and free them up to make business decisions like anyone else. > [@](#): > > Do YOU have a mailbox? I prefer to get my mail at the local PO in a PO Box. More secure. I literally didn’t have a mailbox for years at my house. I added one for two reasons: 1. Delivery drivers often look at the mailboxes for house numbers and not the house itself, so I would notice them getting confused by the lack of mailbox and they would have to circle around. 2. I started doing Netflix physical DVDs a while back and these are the only things that I preferred to get at my house so I didn’t have to wait. Everything else is just bills that I get on Saturday. Certainly I would say that 99% of mail doesn’t need to be delivered daily. Once a week should be fine. It certainly is for me. Anything important, like something I buy on Amazon always comes FedEx or UPS to my house anyway. The USPS just delivers bills and junk. The annoying thing about having the mailbox put in was that the junk mail I get is now doubled, since I get most of it in the PO Box and the Mailbox. I send the Direct Marketing Assc a request every five years to be removed from DM lists. This eliminates junk mail sent by reputable marketers, unless you actually are buying things from them. The junk mail I get is mostly the “weekly flier” for grocery or auto places. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/49 "2012-08-13T20:40:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I prefer to get my mail at the local PO in a PO Box. Good luck when they close your local Post Office. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/50 "2012-08-13T20:46:59Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > do you believe that a private postal service (or a company currently in existence) would offer postal coverage (geographically, I mean) on par or better than the USPS for the prices the USPS offers if the USPS did not exist? It might, or it might not. It depends on what it’s mission was and how it’s regulated. > [@](#): > > If so, who and how? If not, why is this a desirable outcome? Defenders of the USPS in this thread point out that it’s already run “just like” a private business. If that’s true, aren’t we already having the “desirable outcome”? What’s so special about private vs public ownership that makes it so magically efficient? > [@](#): > > Another: do you accept the argument given by many on this thread that current private courier services would be worse and/or worse off without the USPS because of their own use of the post office? If not, why not? No. I think that the USPS would continue to exist in some form privately and they would still partner up. But even if the USPS vanished from the face of the earth completely tomorrow (no equipment, buildings, people, etc) the private sector would still fill in the gaps. If people want a service the free hand will provide it. > [@](#): > > Sorry, one set more: how widely do you think physical mail is used today? What kinds of people use it? It is widely used by many kinds of people. Mostly this is due to inertia. It’s the same reason we don’t use the metric system. We’re used to it. > [@](#): > > Do you think this rate should be lower? You appear (and correct me if I’m wrong) to think that the Internet is universally available and obsequious enough that no one should ever need to use physical mail. I don’t think anyone would argue that the internet isn’t a better and more efficient way of sending a letter to pick one example. It’s certainly easier to increase adoption and availability of the internet then it is to build physical post offices, staff them and deliver mail to people. > [@](#): > > And a general factual question for anyone: would abolishing the postal service entirely require an amendment to the Constitution? Good question. I would argue no. Just because the constitution states that the Post Office can exist doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have to exist. It’s the same logic as the death penalty. The constitution allows for it, but if a state doesn’t have the death penalty they aren’t in violation of the constitution. In any case, I think the USPS would always continue to exist at some level. Even if it’s just delivering the mail of the Senate and the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/51 "2012-08-13T20:48:25Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Good luck when they close your local Post Office. I live in a small town. The PO is less than a mile from my house. There’s another one about a mile in about the same direction. There’s a third one in the town next to me that I drive by every day. There’s another one about a mile from my work. They could close down half of them and I don’t think anyone would notice. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/52 "2012-08-13T20:50:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I prefer to get my mail at the local PO in a PO Box. More secure. I literally didn’t have a mailbox for years at my house. I added one for two reasons: > > 1. I started doing Netflix physical DVDs a while back and these are the only things that I preferred to get at my house so I didn’t have to wait. So, everything the PO does can be done better some other way, yet you’ve paid to have a PO box, and paid to get a new mailbox installed when the PO box wasn’t convenient enough. You use the post office, for bills and to get entertainment delivered to your door. The PO does this at a low enough cost that you can pay Netflix $8 a month to get things repeatedly mailed to and from your house. Do you think UPS is going to deliver a 50 cent letter to your door? Folks have trouble getting their driver to ring their doorbell for a $15 package, and he’s going to make an extra stop to drop off a DVD? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/53 "2012-08-13T21:28:40Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Some people just don’t like the post office because they’ve had too many experiences with rude and/or unmotivated USPS personnel. It’s also why lots of people hate UPS, FedEx, every airline, the DMV, the police, and really every other organization. Everything worth noting has pissed _somebody_ off. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/54 "2012-08-13T21:52:39Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > do you believe that a private postal service (or a company currently in existence) would offer postal coverage (geographically, I mean) on par or better than the USPS for the prices the USPS offers if the USPS did not exist? If so, who and how? I don’t agree with Debaser on hardly anything but I will take a stab at this: I firmly believe that a private company could do it as well (and probably better). My reasoning (which you probably won’t agree with) is that in most cases anything the government can do a private company can do, too. I don’t believe there is anything inherently special about the USPS that can’t be done by a private company. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/55 "2012-08-13T21:56:36Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t agree with Debaser on hardly anything but I will take a stab at this: I firmly believe that a private company could do it as well (and probably better). My reasoning (which you probably won’t agree with) is that in most cases anything the government can do a private company can do, too. I don’t believe there is anything inherently special about the USPS that can’t be done by a private company. This actually triggers a related question: what is it EXACTLY about the Post Office that allows them to have their postal coverage for the rates they charge for first class stamps? Could a private company emulate whatever it is? In short, is a rate increase under a private regime inevitable? If so, by how much? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/56 "2012-08-13T21:56:40Z")
But the question isn’t _can_ they, but _would_ they. USPS has a mandate to serve every address in the US for a flat rate (for first-class letters, at least). A private company would not have that mandate (unless you’re proposing that they should). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/57 "2012-08-13T21:58:09Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t believe there is anything inherently special about the USPS that can’t be done by a private company. I might agree with that as well. However, I would at least note that the USPS is not ungodly bad either. IMO a private company might be a LITTLE better. And they would probably be more likely to fuck over the customers, the workers, or create a giant Enron type debacle at some point as well. How about we legally allow a private company to deliver mail to every place the USPS does. But they also have to follow every law the USPS does. That should answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/58 "2012-08-13T22:00:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > So, everything the PO does can be done better some other way, yet you’ve paid to have a PO box, and paid to get a new mailbox installed when the PO box wasn’t convenient enough. Just because he agrees that it COULD be done a different way doesn’t mean that he can’t recognize the reality of the current situation and conform to it. This “not everyone has internet” argument is bogus. Just because some people want to pretend that it’s still 1981 doesn’t mean that they get to suckle at the taxpayers teat. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/59 "2012-08-13T22:02:13Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > But the question isn’t _can_ they, but _would_ they. USPS has a mandate to serve every address in the US for a flat rate (for first-class letters, at least). A private company would not have that mandate (unless you’re proposing that they should). As I posted in another thread, they don’t serve every address. I have to drive a mile to get my mail. UPS probably wouldn’t do better, but let’s not pretend that the brave mail carrier is scaling cliffs to deliver mail. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391/60 "2012-08-13T22:03:31Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > This “not everyone has internet” argument is bogus. Just because some people want to pretend that it’s still 1981 doesn’t mean that they get to suckle at the taxpayers teat. Did you miss the part that the USPS is totally self funded? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-hatred-some-have-for-the-us-postal-service/631391.md?page=4)