# whats with the Irish and English? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 7, 2002, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425 "2002-09-07T10:59:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hot\_potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71e660/32.png) [@hot\_potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hot_potato)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/1 "2002-09-07T10:59:16Z")
thought i heard somewhere that the Irish don’t like the English and vice versa… anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/2 "2002-09-07T11:03:18Z")
I think this is in the wrong forum. This is for opinions. Well, come to think of it, this is probably something a lot of people from both sides have differing opinions on. I’ll wait to see if it’s moved before answering. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/3 "2002-09-07T12:50:30Z")
england conquered & subjugated Ireland centuries ago. the english held onto Ireland, despite numerous rebellions, until the early 20th century B.C.E. Around 1918, the southern, mostly Catholic, portion of Ireland gained independence, & became a republic. The counties comprising Northern Ireland, mostly Protestant, are nominally under british control. In fact, they are in a state of civil war, on a “hot and cold” basis. Do people of Irish descent hold a dislike for people of english descent? As a Yank of Irish descent, I say: yes and no. Note my use of capitalization as an example. 😉 > [@](#): > > Definition of **Irish Amnesia** —you forget everything but the grudges. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/4 "2002-09-07T13:40:03Z")
I love it when people with no direct link to a country co-opt a slightly misunderstood version of events (civil war? at the moment? where?) in order to jokily further prejudices that prolong the genuine conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/5 "2002-09-07T14:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*I love it when people with no direct link to a country co-opt a slightly misunderstood version of events (civil war? at the moment? where?) in order to jokily further prejudices that prolong the genuine conflicts. \*\* Uhhhh… news flash, **Crusoe**. I stated in my post that the war runs “hot and cold”. And indeed, it _is_ in a “cold” phase. But **absolutely nothing** has been resolved. And both Catholic & Protestant extremists are still there. There shall, I have little doubt, be a continuation of the conflict. Neither side has conceded anything. and, if the leaders of one side or the other chooses peace over ideology, it is very likely that that leader will quickly find himself without followers. How did I “misunderstand” the basic elements of the question? The OP wanted a quick summary, & I gave a good one. If you accuse me of oversimplfication; well, the Op wanted an explaination of an issue that is too complicated to explain in detail on a message board. If you describe the facts as wrong–cite please? As for my “joking” tone—this _is_ the SDMB. We do that here. Thought you would have noticed… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/6 "2002-09-07T14:28:02Z")
I am an Irish nationalist. While I want to see a United Ireland, I love English people as I love Americans, Scottish, Rwandans, Welsh, Italian, French, Bhurmese Timorese etc. I have no ill will towards English people. Its safe to say that while the vast majority of Irish people share my feelings. I may have issues with the British Government, it is not the English people’s fault for that. It is not the English peoples fault for what their government has done in the past. Of course, the OP could of course just open a history book and find out for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/7 "2002-09-07T14:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > \*\* > > Uhhhh… news flash, **Crusoe**. I stated in my post that the war runs “hot and cold”. And indeed, it _is_ in a “cold” phase. > > But **absolutely nothing** has been resolved. And both Catholic & Protestant extremists are still there. There shall, I have little doubt, be a continuation of the conflict. > > Neither side has conceded anything. and, if the leaders of one side or the other chooses peace over ideology, it is very likely that that leader will quickly find himself without followers. > > How did I “misunderstand” the basic elements of the question? The OP wanted a quick summary, & I gave a good one. If you accuse me of oversimplfication; well, the Op wanted an explaination of an issue that is too complicated to explain in detail on a message board. If you describe the facts as wrong–cite please? > > As for my “joking” tone—this _is_ the SDMB. We do that here. Thought you would have noticed… :smack: \*\* Fair enough, don’t get worked up. I am just slightly bemused when people make light of something that has cost so many lives. Personally, I am happy to admit I’m no expert, but I’ve seen posters claim expertise so many times (and I don’t mean you here) and not even understand the basics that it’s like a red rag to a bull. Personally, I think too often the religious aspects and the familiarity of the conflict are downplayed while the (admittedly fundamental) role of the English is overplayed. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/8 "2002-09-07T14:44:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > Personally, I think too often the religious aspects and the familiarity of the conflict are downplayed while the (admittedly fundamental) role of the English is overplayed. Actually, I’ve always been of the opinion that the religious aspect is _overplayed_, at least in the general media. But I’ll admit I say this as an outsider looking in, whose views are informed by books and ssecond-hand anecdotes rather than first hand experiance. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/9 "2002-09-07T14:45:16Z")
Crusoe, then post more on your take on things, which is what the OP asked for-- you’re English so I’m interested in your viewpoint on this. I’m an American and study a bit of history so I always have this mental snap as I usually study Dutch history (Yay, William of Orange was a saint and hero!) but then reading the anti-colonial side of the Irish problem (William of Orange was a bad bad man) it throws me for a minute. “Wait, is that the SAME William of Orange?” ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/10 "2002-09-07T14:53:50Z")
I think – from a mainland English point of view – that outside observers, particularly Americans of Irish descent, have a view that it’s a very black and white problem, with a small minority convinced it’s “the English” oppressing “the Irish”. Some posters in the past have even seemed to confuse Northern Ireland with the Republic. Without wanting to talk down the role of England in Irish history, it seems from my personal experience, that some of the participants in the current conflict couldn’t care less about England. Violence has become almost a way of life, with communities warring, to the extent that the underlying causes are almost unimportant to them. This, at least, is the way events are often presented in mainland England. **Tamerlane** – to be frank, my experience has been limited to the symptoms rather than first-hand. I used to be evacuated from school regularly due to bomb warnings (I lived near an army town in England). I’ve had my car stopped and searched by armed soldiers searching for explosives. Whether the religious aspect is _actually_ over- or underplayed would be better answered by our Northern Irish Dopers, so I don’t want to misrepresent my own expertise in this area. My main gripe, which is why I got perhaps unreasonably snippy with **Bosda** about, was that I expected this to degenerate into non-Irish and non-English posters decrying the English colonial oppressors (etc). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/11 "2002-09-07T15:05:27Z")
**Crusoe** : Ah, I see. I agree it is not nearly so simple as that. The English association with Ireland is quite ancient after all and long pre-dates modern notions of nationalism and imperialism. One can legitimately blame the mopdern British government for some very serious failings and mistakes, but it is hardly a completely black and white issue. The concerns and aspirations of the pro-British majority in Northern Ireland during the partition were hardly trivial and whatever else you can say about them and their origins, by that point, after a few hundred years in situ, they could hardly be labeled as simply alien oppressors. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/12 "2002-09-07T15:25:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capybara \* > I’m an American and study a bit of history so I always have this mental snap as I usually study Dutch history (Yay, William of Orange was a saint and hero!) but then reading the anti-colonial side of the Irish problem (William of Orange was a bad bad man) it throws me for a minute. “Wait, is that the SAME William of Orange?” Possibly not. The villain of Ireland ( except to the ‘Orange Irish’ ) is William III of Orange ( _stadholder_ of the Northern Provinces 1672 -1702, king of England from 1689 ). Whereas the bigger Dutch hero, I would say is William I the Silent, of Orange ( prince of Orange from 1544, _stadholder_ 1572-1584 ), who led the original revolt against the Spanish Hapsburgs. 'course, I could be wrong. Where’s **coldfire** :)? - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/13 "2002-09-07T15:52:38Z")
I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to my location and nationality. While _some_ Irish people have severe animosity towards the British state, I have been here for 7 years, and the amount of genuine anti-English sentiment expressed to me in all that time can be counted on the fingers of one hand, if that hand had had three of its digits amputated. There’s a fair amount of ‘slagging’ and banter, especially regarding sports, but for the most part Irish people are warm, hospitable, unprejudiced (WRT the English), and we share a large amount of ancient and modern culture as well, of course, of history. As for the ‘religous’ ‘war’, it’s not really religious at all. It’s to do with civil rights and political power. The religion is a facile brush with which to tar the participants. [Read all about it here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/index.shtml). Regarding the current alleged ‘civil war’: in a nutshell, the Republicans would like Britain to leave Northern Ireland, and the Unionists would like Britain to stay. However, since most Unionists have been resident in NI for longer than most American dynasties have been in the US, they have as much right to be there as anyone else. Thus it’s nowhere near as simple as has been made out. BTW, time to read a newspaper or two, **bosda**. Note my capitalisation. 😉 P.S. **Crusoe** - saying ‘mainland’ is simply incorrect - especially not ‘mainland England’ (unless you’re referring to the Isle of Wight). The term means as much to people of the Irish Republic as saying France is the mainland of England. It’s only really relevant to Northern Irish Unionists. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/14 "2002-09-07T15:54:26Z")
Point taken. I think I was confusing England and mainland Britain. Which is also a pretty useless term. I think I’ll quit while I’m behind. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/15 "2002-09-07T17:16:29Z")
Ah, thanks, Tamerlane. I had always been confused by that and too lazy to figure it out for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/16 "2002-09-07T17:28:16Z")
While touring around the UK I heard Irish and Scottish people joke about the English. Nothing malicious. But on one of the Black Taxi tours in Belfast, it seems that some Irish want the Brits out. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/17 "2002-09-07T22:12:15Z")
I still haven’t forgiven those bloody Vikings. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/18 "2002-09-07T22:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Violet \* > \*\*But on one of the Black Taxi tours in Belfast, it seems that some Irish want the Brits out. \*\* Really, you think? ---
**Author:** ![Manach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Manach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manach)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/19 "2002-09-07T23:23:57Z")
From my own view point, Southern Irish, the British are people we seem to get along with best. Share most of the same common culture and w’d support their sports teams. But, historically they have have been our worst enemies, with a case of history being radically different depending on where one was raised. Case in point Cromwell, the most surreal aspect of a recent London Trip was a statue of him in Westminster. \ The Northern situation, no straight viewpoint is possible. My take is it is a case of 2 groupings one once powerless (Nationalist) the other historically powerful (Unionist) and in the coming years the former achieving parity which a minority of the Unionist feel is an unacceptable threat to their survival as a people. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425/20 "2002-09-08T00:40:35Z")
What I want to know is if it is true that if not for whisky the Irish would have conquered England and the rest of Europe centuries ago? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-the-irish-and-english/127425.md?page=2)