What's with the Libertarians?

Good, because I want a crack at them too.

I agree, mostly, with Sam Stone’s explanations above, though I find myself fairly far afield from Libertarian. [And by the way, it is easy to slip into thinking his views define libertarians because of his name and his emphatic views. But if you look over this thread you will find that there are several libertarians posting here who have very different views of what it’s all about. That’s not a dig at Lib, I’m just pointing out that libertarians are as diverse as any other group. Oh, and one more thing, libertarian views are held by the majority of Americans, they just don’t usually put that label to it: A Bill of Rights, elevating the desires of the individual over those of the government - even a democratically elected government, can be called nothing if not libertarian; a government divided against itself to moderate its power and limit it to specifically defined spheres of interest is also libertarian at its heart, serving to protect against a self-aggrandizing government; we have one of the freest markets in the world, and that is despite enormous pressures to the contrary - it is through the ceaseless efforts of many Americans, arguing to a receptive audience, that our market has remained as free as it is. I don’t want to get too sidetracked, but America is in many ways a very libertarian country in practice, if not always by label. My question as a libertarian is, are we losing this character, is that okay, and if not what should we do about it?]
On to the questions.

1 - Do you favor a purely fee-for-service government, or do you believe that taxation is an appropriate function for government?
No. Taxes are okay, but should be the minimal necessary to perform the functions of government outlined in the constitution. The mechanism for assuring this is as open to debate in libertarianism as it is in every other political ideology.

2 - Do you believe that the functions normally performed by the government (police, military, etc.) should be performed by firms in the private sector?
Some yes, some no. The military and police are almost certainly not workable as private organizations. On the other hand, where in the constitution is the mandate for the NEA? For NASA? I’m all for art and space exploration, but as I outlined earlier, I think the government should involve itself with these things by - at most - finding ways to encourage the private sector to pursue them.

3 - Do you accept the premise that many services normally associated with government are likely to be natural monopolies?
I’m not sure what you mean, can you be more specific? What exactly is a “natural monopoly” and what does it have to do with libertarianism? I could guess, but I’d rather hear it from you.

4 - Do you accept that it is in the best interest of every busninessperson to be a monopolist, and that philosophical preference for “free and competitive markets” do not overrule the desire for high profits for an individual, and that therefore companies and individuals cannot be trusted to regulate themselves (i.e. some outside agent – either competitors or another agency must take action) to prevent anti-competitive behavior?
I partly agree with this. Certainly the temptations of making a lot of money can lead people to abuse others, either directly or indirectly. The government should regulate these things in the direction of keeping the market free and competitive. There is nothing in that vector that runs counter to libertarianism, as I understand it. Monopolies are destructive to competition and are thus an abuse of others; they should be illegal just as surely as robbery, and of course, regulating large-scale commerce is one of the legitimate roles of government outlined in the constitution.
5 - Do you accept that when a firm has a monopoly in one sector, they are frequently able to leverage that strength into dominance in an unrelated sector, to the deteriment of consumers, disrupting the “natural” self-correcting behavior of the market? Do you agree that this is a bad thing?
You’re obviously thinking of a specific example; what is it?

*6 If yes to 2, 3, 4, and 5, isn’t that a big problem? * As usual with complex questions, the answer is not a simple “yes” or “no”. There are problems and they should be dealt with. I’m pretty much for the way they’re being dealt with now, more-or-less. I’d change a few minor things, but they aren’t really relevant to your questions. Furthermore, I feel this way because I’m libertarian. Why, exactly, do you think monopolies are bad, if not because they interfere with the freedom of the market; more to the point, why do you think keeping the market free is worthy of our concern given that, as a nonlibertarian, you have no faith in its ability to function to our greater good? Shouldn’t you be in favor of a highly controlled market? - the government could control a few large monopolistic corporations much more easily than thousands of small ones.

(shortened to save space) I’m going to explain the “free rider” problem… You and I both own widget factories across the street from each other. The widget business is fiercly competitive. The President of the Evil Enemy Country begins threatening air raids. You decide to install a surface-to-air missile launcher at your factory. I hear about your order to SAMs-R-Us, and realize: “Aha! If he detects an incoming enemy plane, he won’t be able to tell if it’s targetting my factory or if it’s targetting his factory – he’ll shoot it down either way, so my factory gets defended for free!”…because you have to buy and maintain your SAM launcher, my factory is more profitable. You sell your SAM launcher to compete. The enemy planes promptly bomb us both.
It is NOT dismissing the example for its hypothetical nature to point out a glaring implausibility: I have unilaterally decided to take on the expense of defense despite the fact that the effect this will have on my viability is easily predictable. I am extremely unlikely to take such action, even in your hypothetical world; much more likely is that I will try to get together with you and come to some sort of arrangement where we share the costs. However, I don’t really disagree with the point I think you are getting at - some functions, like defense, require the resources of society at large and cannot be easily coordinated by a market operating within that society. Fair enough. But this is, at the same time, a ready excuse for the government to pump up its own power beyond what is justifiable or healthy for the citizenry. We must confine the government to those functions that we are sure cannot be accomplished at any other level. These functions are outlined in law, and, not surprisingly, national defense is one of them.

7 - Do you understand that there is a real concern here, or do you intend to dismiss any questions which relate to this thing as a meaningless hypothetical?
See above.

8 - How do you prevent these problems under your system? The current system is very close to mine. Where I differ is outlined above.

9 - Do you conceed that problems like this, and others, can result in what economists call “market failures”?
I’m not an economist. What exactly do they mean by the term? In fact, I’m going to ask you here for a specific cite for a particular economist or school of economics.

10 - Do you agree with Sam Stone when he says “some government may be required here”?
Yep. I realize your questions were originally addressed to Lib, but again, you do your argument a disservice by refusing to recognize that libertarianism contains more moderate views than his.

11 - If yes to 11, who decides what is a market failure and what is not, and who decides how to rectify the situation? What would you say to a legislator who claimed that high unemployment in a particular area was a market failure the required rectifying?
Um, <I

Picking and choosing, now, in hopes of a shorter post…

I suggest you go through that and answer those questions for the FDA itself. What way is there to determine its effectiveness, except by its failures? What mechanism do you have in mind to judge whether the “FDA experiment” is “working”? Are there any instances where you would put an end to the government based FDA?
I’m playing devil’s advocate here a bit; I don’t really object to the FDA. But I do object to the idea that the government is somehow privileged from the same judgements we bring against the private sector. This idea that the government is seperate and above the rest of us is particularly damaging to our social and legal structure, IMO. It is certainly inappropriate in the case of the FDA.

From #21

A minor quibble, but this isn’t true on my earth! People in many third world countries regard children as a valuable resource: they represent the value of their labor. Of course, they wouldn’t put it in those terms, and I in no way mean to imply that they do not also have all the love and joy in children found in wealthier countries. But this idea that children represent wealth permeates a lot of cultures and is causing problems in the third world. It is not coincidence that the correlation of poverty and large families cuts across cultural lines. Human reproduction does respond to market forces, and not always desirably.

Also from #21

This reasoning is behind a lot of government action that I, as a libertarian, find problematic so I want to address it. In acting on such reasoning, you are assuming that you have some kind of psychic power to determine who would have been successful under other circumstances. I mean sure, if I had only been born with a million dollars, I’d be a rich man today.
The farthest you can go along this path is to point to statistical constructs: black-owned businesses are undercapitalized compared to similar white-owned businesses, things like that. But this tells you little about the success or failure of Bob (who is black). Having identified a trend of injustice it is temptingly easy to try to address it at the trend level. We thus find some way to exalt black-owned businesses based on nothing more than the fact that they are owned by blacks (or women or the handicapped or whatever). It is this inability to see through a probability curve to the individual humans underlying them that is one of the commonest errors of human thought, IMO, at least in politics. Libertarianism is at heart individualistic, and the government’s attempts at dispensing justice at the demographic level is extremely problematic for me. I suspect you disagree, Erratum.
[Please note that with this example I am in no way diminishing the real fact of the roadblocks to black success in our society, and even more so for the handicapped, I expect. It is the way the government has chosen to deal with it I find questionable. I would look for solutions that encourage black businesses to succeed in their own right. I’m about to go off on a rant, here, so I’ll stop, but we can go into it more if you want.]

dhanson: “Companies often flourish and become more profitable in industries where there is viable competition. And while the proper function of a business is to maximize profit for its shareholders and owners, this does not necessarily translate into the desire to monopolize.

I think that’s a bit naive. The opportunities for profits in a monopoly situation are large. I don’t think any businessman worth his salt would turn down an opportunity to monopolize his industry. I personally think your “businesses thrive under competition” sounds a little too much like capitalist boosterism rather than an objective analysis. That’s my opinion.

The last three major anti-trust actions by the government were specious at best, including the current action against Microsoft.

I tend to think that Microsoft is a monopoly (and the federal court agrees with me) and from what I have seen in the news, they have engaged in anti-competitive behavior.

It is incredibly hard for a company to hold on to even a majority market share, let alone a complete monopoly.

You don’t need 100% to be a monopoly, just overwhelming dominance, which Microsoft has.

Look at the current situation with Microsoft - it is actually losing market share to a free operating system

It is interesting to note that no other capitalist competitors have been able to dent Microsoft’s hold on the desktop, and it is taking a movement that is basically immune to market forces (nobody needed to make Linux popular in order to put food on the table). I don’t think Be is a big enough factor to discuss. What’s their market share? A significant dynamic in the OS wars is that any non-MS OS benefits from “Microsoft hatred”. Furthermore, I think that Microsoft’s usage of its OS monopoly to undercut Netscape in the browser market is anti-competitive.

Even natural monopolies don’t necessarily behave like monopolies - Canada Nickel owns 95% of the world’s nickel resources, yet Nickel is priced very competitively.

I think you are misusing the term “natural monopoly”. A nickel monopoly would be a natural monopoly if it were inherently more economically efficient for a single firm to dominate the industry. I know of know reason why the nickel industry would be like that. If Canada Nickel owns 95% of the world’s nickel resources through the “accident” of simply owning all of the right properties, that’s just a monopoly, plain and simple. Natural Monopoly means something specific, and nothing you have said about Canada Nickel (and I don’t know anything about it outside of what you’ve said) makes it a natural monopoly. Furthermore, if there are alternatives, it isn’t really a monopoly at all. We don’t say that Coca-Cola has a monopoly on Sprite – they may be the only producer of Sprite, but they have competitors to their product in their market sector (whether you want to define it as soft drinks in general or lemon-lime sodas in particular).

Offhand, I can’t think of a firm that HAS a monopoly in one sector, so your question is hypothetical.

“Miscrosoft Internet Explorer is an integral part of the OS!” “But I bought your OS, it didn’t have IE, and I had to download it and install it later. I thought it was supposed to be an alternative to Netscape” “Shut up! It’s an integral part of the OS!”

Microsoft has gotten into trouble not because it is gouging the consumer and raping the markets, but because it is TOO competitive, selling products for low prices

It does not have low prices for its OS’s, and using it’s profitability in that sector it “gives away” products in order to undercut their potential competitors and drive them out of business.

Since we haven’t defined ‘pure libertarianism’, this is not an answerable question.

It was designed to be somewhat open-ended so you could supply your own definitions. Do you believe that Libertarian’s Libertarianism could “work”?

No. Marxism is fundamentally flawed at a conceptual level, and involves serious violations in the rights of all people.

What, no similar objection to the lack of definitions here? :smiley: Which right to you think gets violated – the right to produce according to your ability, or the right to consume according to your needs? :smiley: I asked this “tag team” of questions to see if the answers provided to both of them were approached in a consistent manner.

APB9999: “Oh, and one more thing, libertarian views are held by the majority of Americans, they just don’t usually put that label to it: A Bill of Rights, elevating the desires of the individual over those of the government - even a democratically elected government, can be called nothing if not libertarian;

This is the problem with a political party appropriating a word as its name. Most people believe in a republican form of government, but not necessarily a Republican form of government. Most people want a democratic govnernment, not necessarily a Democratic government. We may be a libertarian society, but many of the policies of the Libertarian party are rejected by most americans. For example, I think that Libertarians are in the minority with regard to their opinions about drug and prostitution legalization.

I’m all for art and space exploration, but as I outlined earlier, I think the government should involve itself with these things by - at most - finding ways to encourage the private sector to pursue them.

How would you respond to the assertion that a lot of “basic research”, such as research into quantum physics done in particle accelerators, is unlikely to be able to produce tangible results that come before a “profit horizon” that a private corporation would have to live by? If basic research into quantum physics is unlikely to pay off in terms of sellable product for, say, 20 years, isn’t it unlikely that any business could build a business plan around that? One might argue that only the government, which does not have the short-term profit motive that businesses have by necessity, is able to take a long-term view. Do you agree with that analysis?

What exactly is a “natural monopoly”

I explain somewhat in my post to dhanson. If it is still not clear, ask again. This is a fairly standard and basic economics term.

You’re obviously thinking of a specific example; what is it?

I wasn’t, but Microsoft might be an example.

Why, exactly, do you think monopolies are bad, if not because they interfere with the freedom of the market; more to the point, why do you think keeping the market free is worthy of our concern given that, as a nonlibertarian, you have no faith in its ability to function to our greater good? Shouldn’t you be in favor of a highly controlled market?

I think monopolies are bad for the same reason you do – they prevent the market from working. It is not that I have no faith in the markets, it is that I do not have complete faith in the markets. I know that the market can not always get the “right” results, or that it might not get to the “right” results in a timely fashion or it might not get there in a humane way. Also, I generally believe that the market, like Darwinian selection, can be somewhat blind, and may select against things which don’t “really” need to be selected against. For example, a black man who is constantly harassed by racist co-workers would be less productive than someone who was able to work in peace – a pure market would punish this man for being unproductive, while I would prefer a system in which he could find employment in a workplace free of harassment. Basically, I think that marketplace works fine most of the time, but you need to keep an eye on it, to make sure that the right things are coming out of it, and fix the injustices that a “blind” system can produce.

However, I don’t really disagree with the point I think you are getting at - some functions, like defense, require the resources of society at large and cannot be easily coordinated by a market operating within that society. Fair enough.

My example was aimed primarily at people who support a fee-for-service govnerment or “voluntary taxation”. You have agreed that taxation is vital to the proper functioning of a government/society, which I feel is correct. We may differ on the amount of taxation which is necessary, or the programs it should fund, but I think that the more Libertarian Libertarians don’t make a whole lot of sense when they “just say no” to taxes.

What exactly do they mean by the term [market failure]?

I’m having a hard time thinking of a definition of this that isn’t circular. It’s a fairly basic economics term. I’ll see if I can find a definition on the web somewhere later.

I realize your questions were originally addressed to Lib, but again, you do your argument a disservice by refusing to recognize that libertarianism contains more moderate views than his.

I recognize that. You guys don’t seem to approach things from the weird philosophical angle that people like Lib do. My concern is that Lib and others portray the philosophy as the ultimate morality, etc., when it would not (in my opinion) ever work or even achieve a “moral” result. I think, personally, that all of the “x is coercion by y isn’t” stuff is a lot of doubletalk, and I think it’s patently obvious that the rights of two individuals will always conflict with each other in some way. Some Libertarians seem to trot out tortured language and bizarre philosophical notions to achieve a consistent philosophical system (again, in my opinion). The more moderate Libertrians seem to start from the opinion “I don’t want to pay high taxes, the government is too big, it does too many things, and the market should be less regulated”. I don’t really understand why the two groups (i.e. modertate Libertarians and the Libertarian Libertarians) consider themselves to be part of the same political movement. One seems like a traditional political party, the other just seems “weird” to me. A lot of people describe Marxism as “nice in theory, but it would never work in practice”. What I’m getting from a lot of you guys is “yeah, it would never work in theory, but in practice it would give us a much better government”. :smiley:

Generally the government can decide to take action on the issues that fall within its proper sphere - as outlined in law, i.e. the Constitution.

Some people have an expansive interpretation of Article I, Section 8:

I suggest you go through that and answer those questions for the FDA itself. What way is there to determine its effectiveness, except by its failures?

The (rather lame, unfortunately) answer to that is vigilant oversight by our lawmakers. Also, since the agency is not constrained by a pure profit-motive, there is less pressure to cut corners. A free-market approach would favor an agency that was “just safe enough, without wasting money on being excessively safe”. Relying on an agency sitting on a line like that would make me nervous. Any fluctuation in the marketplace would have a 50% chance of dropping it below the “safe enough” line. Relying on the market in matters of life and death is a very troubling idea to me. I would prefer to have people I trusted doing everything in their power to guarantee safety, and sparing no reasonable expense.

But I do object to the idea that the government is somehow privileged from the same judgements we bring against the private sector. This idea that the government is seperate and above the rest of us is particularly damaging to our social and legal structure, IMO. It is certainly inappropriate in the case of the FDA.

I think the government serves us better in this instance by: 1) Being responsible to all of the people, not the “whims” of the market 2) Having deep enough pockets to err on the side of caution. There are some other reasons, too.

I suspect you disagree, Erratum.

I don’t think so, at least not a 180-degree disagreement.

"*In acting on such reasoni

Erratum

You are as magnanimous as you are civil. Here are the first few.

  1. Presidential candidate, Sam Jones, promises to reduce taxes, end the marriage penalty, and provide health care and a college education for everybody. Based on these promises, he is elected to office. Now, in Libertaria a candidate could not promise any of these things because everyone knows they cannot exist, but in your system such promises are routine. How does your system ensure that Jones keeps the promises he made to his electorate, or, failing that, how does it ensure that candidates do not make promises they cannot keep?

  2. In Libertaria, tobacco executives were charged with fraud and sentenced to prison for misrepresenting their product as safe. In your system, how are the tobacco executives punished such that their victims bear no brunt of it?

  3. Mr. Tycoon has a meeting with Senator Fatcat. A certain Widow Burks owns a small plot of land, in her family for generations, that is in the way of Mr. Tycoon’s enterprise. How does your system prevent Mr. Tycoon and Senator Fatcat working out a deal for special privilege legislation that will force Widow Burks to sell her land and move to a rest home? And if you stop the deal, how do you stop the government from declaring either eminent domain or asset forfeiture and taking Widow Burks property away from her “for the common good”?

  4. Here, you may take either option: (A) Mr. Jones is gay. He is not gay by choice, but by birth. Though you might disagree with him, he has tried therapy, drugs, and surgery to change his ways. Nothing has worked. How does your system ensure that Mr. Jones is treated fairly and decently by society, attaining all rights and privileges that everyone else enjoys, like marriage? (B) Mr. Jones is gay. He is not gay by birth, but by choice. He argues that no one is born baptist or methodist either, but is baptist or methodist by choice. How does your system ensure that Mr. Jones is treated fairly and decently by society, attaining all rights and privileges that everyone else enjoys, like marriage?

  5. In several states, and the District of Columbia, law abiding registered voters have passed referenda that legalize marijuana for medicinal use. Mr. Smith, undergoing chemotherapy, begins to manufacture and consume marijuana on the advice of his doctor. How does your system prevent Attorney General Janet “Burn-The-Children” Reno from sending in her swat teams to arrest Mr. Smith? And how does it prevent Senator John “Trust-Me” McCain from overturning the district’s vote?

  6. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, the Idaho Freemen, and Queer Nation all want to use a particular public park to stage demonstrations, and they all apply for permission at the same time. How does your system decided who will get to use the public property, and how will it address the concerns of the losers when they cry “foul”. If it lets them all use the property together, how will it ensure the safety of the park’s neighbors?

  7. Wealthy local fatcat, Mr. Big Britches, wants to build a slaughterhouse somewhere in the community, but not anywhere near his home, of course. So, at a dinner party he hosts for the local commissioners, he raises the subject and they all pull out a map. They find the area populated by people with the least political clout, poor people who are illiterate and don’t vote. How does your system stop Mr. Britches from building his slaughterhouse next door to people whose lives are already in desparate disarray, and who are helpless to stop him?

  8. Due to wild hypothetical circumstances — imagine anything you like, a crisis, an upheaval, or simply years of incremental slippage down a slippery slope — the Constitution is amended to permit gang rape of retarded female children. How does your system ensure this doesn’t happen? Nevermind that it is unlikely, how does your system make it impossible?

  9. Mr. and Mrs. Smith are law abiding, good citizens, who have played by the rules, and have exercised responsible parenting and home management. For years, they have dreamed of sending their son to a special school that they could only barely afford. But by scrimping, sacrificing, and saving, they have finally gotten themselves just over the marginal ability to fulfill their dream. Suddenly, taxes are increased. Their net income falls by five percent, just enough to make their dream out of reach. Now, they must scrap everything they planned for so meticulously. How does your system guarantee that the rug won’t be pulled out from people like Mr. and Mrs. Smith who, through no fault of their own, have seen their plans and dreams dashed by the frivolous whims of politicians?

  10. Single mother, Mrs. Brown answers a knock on her door and is confronted by police and DEA agents who inform her that her son was caught dallying with a prostitute and was found in possession of five grams of cocaine. She is told that her car, which her son was driving, will be impounded, and that she can expect papers to be served seizing her home and land as well under laws of asset forfeiture. How does your system prevent this travesty of justice from robbing Mrs. Brown of everything she owns due to the fact that her son was paying for consentual sex and possessed drugs frowned on by the FDA, while being tenuously connected to her property?

  11. The issue is raised by a popular congressman that Canada, and in particular Toronto and Montreal, are enjoying an umbrella of protection from the military of the United States, but are paying no taxes in support of it. How does your system prevent Montreal from enjoying this freeloader protection without making some contribution toward its support?

Libertarian: “How does your system ensure that Jones keeps the promises he made to his electorate, or, failing that, how does it ensure that candidates do not make promises they cannot keep?

  1. We have an electorate that is composed of something other than mindless automatons, who are able to judge the candidate on his trustworthiness, and we have a free press which is able to investigate Jones’ claims, and report on their feasability.

In your system, how are the tobacco executives punished such that their victims bear no brunt of it?

  1. First off, in my personal system, we don’t have too much sympathy for people who use a product which says quite clearly on the package “Surgeon General: This will kill you! Don’t use it!”. Cigarette users are not completely blameless for their health problems. It’s been known for many years that smoking is bad for you. If, however, the tobacco executives committed fraud, then there are laws on the books to deal with it. Locking up a tobacco executive doesn’t help anybody with lung cancer, though, does it? The more effective solution is to seek restitution from the tobacco companies to pay for the health problems of people who didn’t know better (such as minors who weren’t qualified to make health decisions or people who started smoking before public health advocates started explain how bad it was).

How does your system prevent Mr. Tycoon and Senator Fatcat …

  1. You claimed to be able to use advertising to fix the SAM problem, I’ll use advertising by Candidate for Senate Joe Integrity for this one. The press should get involved as well. Also, a campaign funding system which limited the amount of money that Mr. Tycoon could give to Senator Fatcat would limit Mr. Tycoon’s influence might be appropriate.

How does your system ensure that Mr. Jones is treated fairly and decently by society, attaining all rights and privileges that everyone else enjoys, like marriage?

  1. First, I deny that “marriage” is a right. Freedom of association is a right, and Jones has the right to shack up with whoever he wants. Furthermore, Jones is free to marry any woman he wants (with her consent, of course). He simply chooses not to exercise that right. I have the right to say “all black people are idiots”, but I don’t exercise that right because I find it particularly repugnant. Jones may find heterosexual sex to be repugnant, but nobody’s stopping him. The big complaint about gay marriage, as far as I can tell, is with insurance and things like that. Many insurance plans already recognize domestic partners. As a Libertarian, you should say that a deal between Jones and his insurance company is none of the government’s business anyway. I would simply tell Jones to get better insurance.

How does your system prevent Attorney General Janet “Burn-The-Children” Reno from sending in her swat teams to arrest Mr. Smith?

  1. It doesn’t. Our system has a well defined process for changing federal law. It involves getting the senate and the house to pass the legislation, and getting the president to sign it. Most people in the country know that, and shouldn’t be surprised when the law fails to change when they don’t do that.

The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, the Idaho Freemen, and Queer Nation all want to use a particular public park to stage demonstrations, and they all apply for permission at the same time.

  1. The government should be accomodating as possible. I would think that the fairest solution would be to give the park to whoever had been planning the event for the longest time, or perhaps who had requested permission the earliest (even on the same day, they must have come in some order). Failing to gain a consensus among the four demonstrators that that was a fair process, a random selection might be made. The police will obviously need to be on hand, to make sure that nobody gets hurt. If the police force for the park in question believes that it can accomodate more than one group, than more than one will be allowed to demonstrate on that day.

How does your system stop Mr. Britches from building his slaughterhouse next door to people whose lives are already in desparate disarray, and who are helpless to stop him?

7a) The press and public activists who encourage the affected people to vote can rectify this situation, if it needs rectification. The situation would be the same in your Libertaria if Mr. Britches contacted the local bylaw printing agency and requested information about which areas had slaughterhouse loopholes.

the Constitution is amended to permit gang rape of retarded female children. How does your system ensure this doesn’t happen? Nevermind that it is unlikely, how does your system make it impossible?

7b) It doesn’t, and neither does your system. For this to be possible, you’d need people to vote for enough representatives who thought this was a good idea for it to get 2/3 majorities in both houses of Congress, and support in 3/4 of the state legislators. If the people support legislators like that, then there are problems with the people, and they are no more likely to respect your Noncoercion Principle than they are to respect the basic dignity of human beings.

How does your system guarantee that the rug won’t be pulled out from people like Mr. and Mrs. Smith who, through no fault of their own, have seen their plans and dreams dashed by the frivolous whims of politicians?

  1. It doesn’t, other than by ensuring that the Smiths vote for and tell their friends to vote for candidates who won’t raise taxes. How does your system guarantee that Mr. Roper, the Smith’s landlord, doesn’t raise their rent by 10%, dashing their dreams in a similar manner?

How does your system prevent this travesty of justice from robbing Mrs. Brown of everything she owns

  1. I assume that you are talking about some real action under our current system, correct? Do you have details explaining the legal justification for this? I personally see no justification for siezing any of Mrs. Brown’s assets. The sons assets are a different story, but the son doesn’t own the house.

How does your system prevent Montreal from enjoying this freeloader protection without making some contribution toward its support?

  1. If we get too pissed off, we invade. However, we currently feel that a peaceful relationship with our neighbors to the north offsets the costs we incur providing for their defense. Furthermore, both parties are members of NATO (something Harry Browne wants to get out of, by the way, I saw him for a few minutes on C-SPAN the other day as I was flipping channels), and are committed to each other’s defense anyway. If we feel that Canada is not pulling its weight in NATO, we can use the diplomatic tools at our disposal to encourage them to improve their defense capabilties.

I was responding to your implication that businesses always do better when they can monopolize. This just isn’t true. If Microsoft had been the only software company in existance at the dawn of the PC age, it wouldn’t be worth nearly as much as it is today, because widespread market appeal of computers required a dynamic, thriving industry.

Many companies recognize that it’s better to have 10% of a trillion-dollar market than 100% of a hundred-million dollar market.

That’s certainly the government’s opinion, but that doesn’t make it right. Microsoft’s ‘anti-competitive’ behaviour has been a great boon to consumers. Prosecuting companies for doing this is a populist position akin to attacking foreign companies for ‘dumping’ products on us - their doing so is actually a benefit to the consumers, at the expense of some businesses. So the businesses apply political pressure, and soon we have politicians decrying such behaviours by appealing to our baser tendencies like nationalism or even racism.

Simply put, the spectre of a company giving away products until their competitors are out of business and then leveraging their monopoly to rape consumers is a near fiction. It’s sounds scary and dangerous, but I’m having a hard time thinking of an example where a company managed to pull it off for a net gain. Some have tried, but invariably as soon as their prices rise to unreasonable levels new competition enters the market and stomps all over them.

BTW, are companies like ‘buy.com’ that are selling products below cost in the net engaging in anti-competitive behaviour? They are taking huge losses to try and force competitors out of the market and gain market share, hoping to recoup that in the future. In the meantime, you and I are benefitting greatly from their strategy.

[/QUOTE]

And yet, Microsoft is running scared because they are under attack on the OS front by Linux and Be, Windows CE is being slaughtered by the Palm OS, and whole new categories of net appliances are reducing people’s need for Windows. In addition, companies like Corel have made ‘net’ versions of their software that can be run on thin clients that just need a browser. Microsoft has been forced to backtrack and do the same with Office, further weakening Windows.

Microsoft has done a fantastic job of hanging on to market share. They’ve done so mainly because they produce great products. Their development tools and languages are phenomenal. The support they give Windows developers is great. Microsoft Office blows most competitors out of the water.

I know it’s popular to paint Microsoft as the Evil Empire, but that depiction just doesn’t stand up to the facts. Yes, Microsoft is very agressive. But mainly, Microsoft is very, very good at what it does. And you and I benefit from that.

Anti-competitive? What a nice double-speak. How about ‘hyper-competitive’. Microsoft tries harder. I for one am happy that I got an excellent free browser that works so well with my operating system.

But now that Microsoft dominates the ‘browser wars’, have you seen any sign that they are using this dominance to increase profits at the expense of consumers? I haven’t. Internet Explorer is far superior to Netscape, if you ask me, and Microsoft is still improving it, at a faster pace than Netscape can manage.

And as I said, Microsoft’s ‘monopoly’ is under attack from all quarters. This market is very, very dynamic. Five years ago the Internet caught Microsoft offguard, and just about ran over it. But the company had the guts to totally restructure the way it built its products and their focus. Lots of other companies didn’t, and they are now playing catch-up. But another twist in the market could come tomorrow and catch Microsoft off guard again. This is why Microsoft works so hard and is so competitive. They know it’s a dynamic industry and you can NEVER rest and reap the benefits of your ‘monopoly’.

So if Microsoft is indeed a monopoly, it’s one we should welcome having, because the most market share belongs to the company that has demonstrated the most consistent excellence. That’s good for the consumer.

I don’t agree. Windows NT and their high-end software like MTS and Site Server are priced very competitively. I see no evidence of price gouging. MS Office is a bargain for what you get. Sure, Corel’s office is cheaper, but it’s nowhere near as good or as comprehensive.

Perhaps you could give some specific examples of artifically high prices for Microsoft products due to their ‘monopoly’?

[quote]

Since we haven’t defined ‘pure libertarianism’, this is not an answerable question.

It was designed to be somewhat open-ended so you could supply your own definitions. Do you believe that Libertarian’s Libertarianism could “work”?

"*No. Marxism is fundamen

<BLOCKQUOTE>

How would you respond to the assertion that a lot of “basic research”, such as research into quantum physics done in particle accelerators, is unlikely to be able to produce tangible results that come before a “profit horizon” that a private corporation would have to live by? If basic research into quantum physics is unlikely to pay off in terms of sellable product for, say, 20 years, isn’t it unlikely that any business could build a business plan around that? One might argue that only the government, which does not have the short-term profit motive that businesses have by necessity, is able to take a long-term view. Do you agree with that analysis?

</BLOCKQUOTE>

ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is another red herring that has been thrown around in defense of government for ages, and bears little or no relationship to reality.

The fact is, businesses engage in long-term research and development all the time, and it is government that can’t see past the next election.

Some facts for you:

[li]Bell Labs alone (now Lucent technologies) spends more money per year on basic research than the entire federal government research budget. (At least up until 1985, where the last numbers I have came from)[/li]
[li]Bell Labs has received more Nobel Prizes than almost any other institution, for such non-commercial research as discovering the 3K background radiation in the universe[/li]
[li]Many U.S. corporations were undertaking long-term research into sustainable space development when the U.S. government undercut them to develop a quick-and-dirty ‘cannonball in space’ program that had very few long-term benefits, but could be done quickly.[/li]
[li]The history of the space shuttle is one of long-term goals being undercut by administrations eager to prove that something is happening now at the expense of quality and scientific research[/li]
[li]The last major long-term scientific project the government undertook was the Superconducting Supercollider, and it was killed from political pressure because things weren’t happening fast enough to suit the public.[/li]
[li]Drug companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars on drug research that won’t pay off for decades or longer. Research programs can often take 10-20 years, and after that the FDA approval process can take another 10-15 years. Only after all that can the company even begin to receive revenues for their investment[/li]
[li]Boeing bet the entire assets of the company on a large experimental jet design (the 747) which would not fly for at least fifteen years, was designed for a market that did not yet exist, and would not show a profit on the books for probably a decade or more after that. And that was one of their short-term projects! Boeing was spending millions on space-plane technology in the 1960’s, when it was pretty clear that such technology would not bear economic fruit for at least 40-50 years or more.[/li]
[li]Another large government initiative, the National Aerospace Plane, was scrapped due to pressure from voters, who didn’t want to spend money on something that would take so long to develop.[/li]
[li]The International Space Station, that other large government program, is billions over budget, a decade late, and has been scaled down in size many times due to political pressure, to the point where it’s not much bigger than Skylab and Mir put together. It came very close to being cancelled several times (and probably should have been, since its original scientific mission has been compromised many times due to political pressure and now its use is questionable). And it’s still not flying.[/li]
The bottom line is that there are hundreds of corporations funding basic research, and much more goes on in private foundations and colleges. Corporations are also big donators to educational facilities and give grants and scholarships for research (I received a Xerox Scholarship while in college).

Actual federal contributions to basic science are fairly minimal, and come chiefly from NASA, the NSF,and military research. The budgets of all of them have been slashed, and NASA, again under political pressure, moved away from long-term research in the 1970’s and became primarly a space-truck company. And every single one of the government agencies have been under pressure to give results NOW, at the expense of long-term research.

On the other hand, once a company reaches a size that means it will be around for a few decades, it usually begins to involve itself in long-term research. The evil Microsoft has a huge division called Microsoft Research which in engaging in all kinds of long-term computing research, some of which has apparent commercial prospects and some which doesn’t.

If you don’t believe me on any of this, do a quick web browse to companies like Xerox, Lucent, Microsoft Research, Dow Chemical, Pfizer, etc. They all have links to their R&D divisions, and I think you’ll be astounded at what you’ll find they are studying - black holes, superstring theory, quantum mechanics, deep-space radio astronomy, etc. Or, go and grab some peer reviewed scientific journals, and have a look at how many of the articles are published by authors with corporate affiliation. I think that will surprise you as well.

Well. I disagree with everybody.
There’s too much to hit every point I want to make, but a few would be as follows.

Sam Stone is correct when he says the ability of the private sector to pursue long term research goals is underrated; but he goes too far with

When you add in the NIH, a truly enormous amount of basic biology research comes from the government. In fact, while other research budgets have been cut, this one has been increased - largely to focus on three particular diseases: cancer, diabetes, and AIDS. I personally (as a worker in the field who is, in fact, funded by the NIH) find this troublesome. I’m not troubled by the fact that the research gets done! I’m troubled that by having the purse-strings of science so firmly in the government’s hands they have the power to decide what is and is not “legitimate” research based on whether it is politically popular. A bunch of religious leaders decide cloning is wicked, for example, and the vote-licking Clinton administration seeks a moratorium on research in this area. I don’t really care about cloning, but I do care about the government assuming new powers without any real debate or (dare I suggest?) CONSTITUTIONAL PERMISSION. They can get away with it because they are the main money source, but being able to get away with it doesn’t make it right, nor does it mean that it will not damage science in the long run. The government aggrandizes itself by funding other areas, too, until any alternative sources of money have withered away.

I believe that the private sector WOULD, in fact, fund research into these diseases because of the enormous profit potential. And of course they are, but not without considerable dependence on the what and how of the NIH’s funding. They hold back spending to see if the NIH will jump in and do it first, saving them the trouble. The government is a giant and casts a huge shadow; sometimes it acts as shelter, but just as often it stunts the growth of other entities. I’d like to see tha government back off direct funding of such research and instead offer rewards - let’s say for instance, $300 Million - to the institution or corporation that first succeeds in producing a treatment that reduces viral loads in the blood of AIDS patients by x amount for y years (with other criticle parameters defined). Success or failure to be determined by independent laboratory z by methods to be determined by itself (lab z is obviously disqualified from seeking the reward). This would, I believe, bring enormously more than $300M to bear on the problem. Many more ideas would be tried than those approved by the board at NIH that currently approves grant proposals.

That said, I’m not sure that projects at the remove from human scale that particle accelerators represent would get funded without government action. These projects might be worthy of government involvement, IF the people of the United States agree that the government should have such powers, and how they are to be implemented. As it stands, this debate has never occured, nor is it likely to, given the power-seeking priorities of the two major political parties.

That’s one.

“Criticle”? I’ve really got to stop sniffing burning plastic bags…
Obviously, I meant “critical”.

Here’s two.

On the contrary, I think libertarianism does work in theory, provided you look at the underlying principles of it. Some people, like Lib, take these principles to enormous extremes that I am not comfortable with, but we do agree on what principles are important, even if I take them as less absolute than he does. Your identifying extremism as “the theory” is a problem here. The theory as I see it is essentially that the individual’s liberty almost always supercedes the state’s interests. You can immediately name exceptions; but bear in mind that they are the exceptions. The history of the past three hundred years, and the last hundred in particular, demonstrate the dangers of failing to recognize and cultivate the natural tension between, on the one hand, the citizenry and its freedoms of behavior (what we call “liberty”), and on the other hand the government and its self-justifying expansion of power over its citizens and their behavior. Fascism and Communism both completely submerged the individual in service to the state, with disatrous results. Yet these ideologies define the terms in which we discuss politics - are you on the Right or the Left? Liberal or Conservative? Terms loaded to mean: do you support a powerful government so it can promote parochial interests, or do you support a powerful government so it can promote general interests?

Libertarianism is a THIRD alternative. Government should be the minimum possible to effect those causes deemed absolutely undoable in any other way. In this way, individual liberty is maximized, which I consider a good thing. Many do not, for various reasons.

Having said that, there are indeed bad people in the world, and they seek to abuse their fellows in various ways, some petty and some grand. In diminishing government, we want to retain some structure that can prevent these abuses, arbitrate our disputes, etc. But the government CANNOT be privileged from the same standards: It, too, is composed of people, some of whom are in the class of abusers. In fact, it may be postulated, with good evidence, that government attracts such people. The government as a whole aggrandizes itself and its power, inevitably. This is not always through malice - sometimes there are good causes to justify it. But as it is the unchanging consistency of such power-expansion that stands out as more steadily true than any momentary cause upon which the expansion is based, we HAVE to recognize the tendency for what it is: a serious threat to our liberties. In fact, I have concluded that at present the government is at least as great a threat to my freedom as any delimitation that occurs through government weakness. It’s a delicate balance, and I think we’re currently tipping the wrong way.

That’s my take on what libertarianism is.

I meant to add to that, that I don’t think Marxism works even in theory, given our current understanding of economics and a goal of human rights (which I contend cannot exist in a totalitarian system).

Here’s three.
I think the point of Lib’s questions was basically this: Insisting that someone prove that a libertarian system “works” is disingenuous. If you were asked to prove that our current system would work to someone who had never experienced it, they might raise objections claiming that they see the potential for undesirable effects, along the lines of what actually does happen in Lib’s examples. Would these objections serve as proof that our own system is in fact “unworkable”? More specifically, he has given examples of “democracy failure” to match yours of “market failure”. To the corruption he describes (which is not really hypothetical, after all) you answer that the press can report it and the people vote the bums out. Yet, as we see over and over, this does not happen, at least not very often. I’m sure you yourself see how weak these answers are, given the reality; so how would you convince, say, a Tory loyalist in 1775, that such a democracy could ever work?

If we take libertarianism as an alternative view of the individual’s relationship with government than those that have dominated this century, we have only to point to those successes in areas where these principles have been applied (like the Bill of Rights, for instance!) to demonstrate their power and utility. Given the failures of fascism and communism, the bankruptcy of those who advocate over-powerful governments stands in stark contrast. Even in our own country, the “Great Society” did not quite pan out as expected, and if it wasn’t as disastrous as Europe’s similar experiments that might be because it was far more moderate in approach; Roosevelt’s alphabet soup pulled us out of the depression only if you assume that we would NOT have pulled out of it through a more free market stew. Given the dynamism of the free market in other contexts, before and since, this is a questionable assertion at best, even if FDR’s programs were very popular at the time.

Okay, that’s three, and enough for tonight.

You could also point to examples like Hong-Kong, which has existed in a nearly Libertarian environment for 40 years and has been wildly successful because of it. The British Governor of Hong Kong intentionally adopted a hands-off policy, letting businesses and consumers fend for themselves and leting development take place wherever the market led it. The man is now regarded as a hero in Hong Kong because of the economic miracle he let happen.

Sam Stone: “Microsoft’s ‘anti-competitive’ behaviour has been a great boon to consumers.

That’s certainly the Microsoft company line.

Prosecuting companies for doing this is a populist position akin to attacking foreign companies for ‘dumping’ products on us - their doing so is actually a benefit to the consumers, at the expense of some businesses.

Comparing Microsoft’s actions to “dumping” is perfectly fine by me. Dumping generally is anti-competitive, since it relies on non-market mechanisms to set prices. The undercutting of competitors to drive them out of business and then jack up prices is not something I like to see in markets, especially if the ability to undercut comes from completely non-market sources, such as government subsidies or special treatment, which is sometimes the case with foreign “dumping”.

And yet, Microsoft is running scared because they are under attack on the OS front by Linux

They aren’t running scared, but they are pissed off.

Microsoft has done a fantastic job of hanging on to market share. They’ve done so mainly because they produce great products.

Uh, right… You’ve never seen the Blue Screen of Death? Please leave this Orwellian Newspeak explanation to people who will swallow it. Here is a web page with links to info from the trial. Let me direct you to the testimony of Frederick R. Warren-Boulton (an economist testifying for the DOJ). I haven’t read the whole thing, but on page 2, (paragraphs numbered 6 and 7) he explains Microsoft’s Monopoly status and why it holds it, and with more detail on page 19 (paragraph number 43) he explains in more detail.

I don’t agree. Windows NT and their high-end software like MTS and Site Server are priced very competitively. I see no evidence of price gouging.

From Warren-Boulton’s testimony again, page 27, paragraph 61:

Now, since I’m sure you’ll quote the Microsoft company line for me again, “the products today are better then they were before, so it is fair to charge more for them”. Now: Microprocessors follow Moore’s law, which states that performance roughly doubles every 18 months (actually that’s a mis-statement of Moore’s Law, but it’s good enough for our purposes). In real terms, computer systems are cheaper today than in the 80’s. Microprocessors (as explained in the above quote) make up less of the cost of a system. Yet microprocessors are, unquestionably, more full-featured and “better” than they used to be. Why is microsoft immune to a price pressure that affects every other aspect of the PC industry? Perhaps because they have no competition?

Sam Stone: “Bell Labs alone (now Lucent technologies) spends more money per year on basic research than the entire federal government research budget.

I question your numbers, please provide them. A lot of what Bell Labs does has short-term goals. What they describe as “basic research” might not be so basic. Also, without the profitable long-distance business to sustain them anymore, I suspect that Bell Labs has had to undergo some belt-tightening and focus on more profitable endeavors recently.

The last major long-term scientific project the government undertook was the Superconducting Supercollider, and it was killed from political pressure because things weren’t happening fast enough to suit the public.

No, it was killed because some dense legislators thought it was a pork-barrel program for Texas. Just because the government has screwed up some programs does not mean that it is incapable of doing things correctly. If I can find a person who claimed to be a Libertarian who did something “bad”, would it be fair for me to condemn all Libertarians? One example of short-sightedness should not dictate our science policy.

Research programs can often take 10-20 years, and after that the FDA approval process can take another 10-15 years. Only after all that can the company even begin to receive revenues for their investment

It was my understanding that the FDA routinely worked with drug companies to get the approval process completed in as parallel a manner as possible. I could be wrong. If you don’t like the FDA, please provide an alternative. Please don’t tell me that the market will decide because consumers will stop purchasing drugs from companies that release products that kill people. I am not willing to pay for a non-government solution with those people’s lives.

The International Space Station, that other large government program …

We’re not discussing boondoggles here. We also aren’t necessarily discussing our present government. We are discussing whether a Libertarian government is necessarily better than a government of the form we have now. Since a Libertarian government would be forbidden from even trying to get these things right, I think it would be necessity be worse off than a system like we have now.

If you don’t believe me on any of this, do a quick web browse to companies like Xerox, Lucent, Microsoft Research, Dow Chemical, Pfizer, etc. They all have links to their R&D divisions, and I think you’ll be astounded at what you’ll find they are studying - black holes, superstring theory, quantum mechanics, deep-space radio astronomy, etc.

I went to the Bell Labs page. I skimmed the titles quickly, and I didn’t notice anything “interesting” from our perpective. Could you be more specific?

Why would my fetish over cosmology research justify taking money from a man who might be more interested in art or something else?

What exactly is a libertarian “form” of government?

A government of the monarchy form is libertarian if it secures the rights of its citizens. A government of the republic form is also libertarian if it secures the rights of its citizens.

Worse off in space research? Maybe. Maybe not.

But it for sure wouldn’t be worse off in providing a context for decent folk who simply want to pursue their happiness — but not at the expense of others.

APB9999: “* Fascism and Communism both completely submerged the individual in service to the state, with disatrous results. Yet these ideologies define the terms in which we discuss politics - are you on the Right or the Left? Liberal or Conservative? Terms loaded to mean: do you support a powerful government so it can promote parochial interests, or do you support a powerful government so it can promote general interests?*”

You complain that I link your views with Lib’s, even though he is a self-proclaimed Libertarian and is not repudiated, yet you feel justified in linking our major political parties to Fascism and Communism? Please.

Libertarianism is a THIRD alternative. Government should be the minimum possible to effect those causes deemed absolutely undoable in any other way.

So if government could do something more efficiently than a private sector solution, you would oppose it “on principle”, even though everyone would benefit? Frankly, I think you mischaracterize what everybody else is advocating, to cast yourselves in a good light. I am no fan of “big government”, I am a fiscally conservative and socially moderate Republican. But I recognize that government can and should do some things. And, quite frankly, I think that giving in to “moderate Libertarians” is the first step to the insanity advocated by Libertarian, with “volunary taxation”, and the like. Libertarians, as a rule, like slippery slope arguments, so let me tell you that I look at you “moderate Libertarians” as “slippery” people.

But the government CANNOT be privileged from the same standards: It, too, is composed of people, some of whom are in the class of abusers. In fact, it may be postulated, with good evidence, that government attracts such people.

The only way to “fix” government is with a well informed electorate and an open political process. No amount of structural change is going to prevent the evil or self-serving from trying to pervert the government for their own ends. Whether than structural change is advocated by a Libertarian, a Republican, or a Democrat, it is basically not going to get to the heart of the problem. A representative government is based on the principle that the voters are able to get the representatives that they want, and that are good for the voters. If your political philosophy denies that premise, then you should want to scrap representative democracy altogether. If you accept the fundamental soundness of representative democracy, then you also need to accept that no amount of “reform” around the edges is ever going to be a silver bullet, and that “eternal vigilance” is the only answer. You also accept the risk of a potential “bread and circuses” scenario.

In fact, I have concluded that at present the government is at least as great a threat to my freedom as any delimitation that occurs through government weakness. It’s a delicate balance, and I think we’re currently tipping the wrong way.

I think your concerns have little foundation in reality, and that modern day Americans are some of the free-est, happiest, and most content people in the history of human civilization. The spectre of jack-booted thugs is not something that the vast majority of Americans view as a realistic threat.

More specifically, he has given examples of “democracy failure” to match yours of “market failure”. To the corruption he describes (which is not really hypothetical, after all) you answer that the press can report it and the people vote the bums out.

The difference, however, is that in Lib’s “democracy failures”, it was because the people got what they voted for. If they didn’t want a crook in office, they should have investigated him before voting him in. If they didn’t want campaign contributions to sway their representatives votes, they should have voted for representatives that would have enacted laws to prevent it. I think the ridiculous Rape Amendment case illustrates the bankruptcy of that line of argument. I make no promises that only people who are good and virtuous will serve in public office. I do promise that if we fail to investigate, or if we ignore information, then the people we put in office will be the candidates we deserve (e.g. Bill Clinton – many people said he was a shifty character before he was elected, but the American people didn’t really care).

so how would you convince, say, a Tory loyalist in 1775, that such a democracy could ever work?

Before I had evidence to back it up? I doubt I could, since better orators and politicians than me (e.g. the Founding Fathers) tried and failed. If he were around today, I’d say: “Look at the U.S. – the most powerful country in the world, with unlimited potential and unprecedented prosperity – can you really say that our democratic system doesn’t work? Of course it’s not pefect – we never promised it would be – but it works, and works better than any other system ever devised by man.”

dhanson: “You could also point to examples like Hong-Kong, which has existed in a nearly Libertarian environment for 40 years and has been wildly successful because of it.

Hong Kong may have had a “hands off” approach to the economy, but did they have a “Libertarian” social agenda? I thought they had pretty harsh police policies, and not many civil liberties. Am I wrong?

Libertarian: “What exactly is a libertarian “form” of government?

Call me crazy, but isn’t that what everybody’s been asking you?!?!?!

However, unless you are going to tell me that a system like the one we have now is “Libertarian” (which is, I’ll grant you, right up your alley, since you have a perplexing tendency to tell those who disagree with you that they make your points better than you do…), by statement stands.

Worse off in space research? Maybe. Maybe not. But it for sure wouldn’t be worse off in providing a context for decent folk who simply want to pursue their happiness — but not at the expense of others.

This is where I think your logic breaks down. I don’t think that having the government involved in basic research is necessarily apposed to “decent folk” pursuing happiness. I think that “decent folk” have a basic understanding that they form governments to do collectively things they can’t do themselves. This is the principle behind using the government for the military, why can’t that principle be extended to building particle accelerators? (By the way, are there any firms in the private sector that own and operate particle accelerators?)

Me:

You:

Okay, you’re crazy. But that’s beside the point.

Though you imply that I’ve been evasive or stalling, I have answered that question many times:

From right here in this thread, Libertarians and the Noncoercion Principle:

(Note also that Gilligan said, in this thread: There is still confusion over the terminology: is it libertarian “system” or “context” or “principle”…? I would say, it is a philosophy, in which the ethical principle is “non-coercion”. It has nothing to do with the form of government. (Poster_Lib is right.))

In the Libertarianism thread, I had said:

In that same thread, I explained in greater detail:

Libertarianism is just a philosophy. It’s a principle upon which you can base a government of any arbitrary “form”. A communist government is libertarian if all are volunteers. A theocracy is libertarian if all are volunteers. A democracy is libertarian if all participate voluntarily.

But if even one person, in any form of government is forced to participate against his will, then that government, no matter what its form, is not libertarian.

That’s the whole point of libertarianism. It lets everybody who is peaceful and honest pursue his own happiness in his own way — including what form of government makes him happy.

Got it?

Why don’t you let those “decent folk” think on their own behalf?

If they want to spend money for space research, then fine. But it sounds like to me you want to decide for them.