# What's with this convention in 19th century literature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990 "2012-03-07T00:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/1 "2012-03-07T00:37:13Z")
Seems to me I’ve mainly seen this in literature from the 19th century (though it could go farther back, and I know at least one book from the 20th century that used it): instead of giving the reader a character’s name, they’ll use a long dash instead, or just use the first letter of the name followed by a dash (“Monsieur V--------”). I can’t figure out the purpose of this; certainly it can’t be any kind of defamation issue, since the characters are fictional. Furthermore, they’ll often give other characters’ full names, so it’s not even consistent. I’m sure there must be some logic to it, but I can’t figure it out. Anyone got a clue? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/2 "2012-03-07T00:40:17Z")
Are you sure they are fictional characters? Instinctively I’d think they were real people the author didn’t feel comfortable naming. Note they also do it with dates “In the year 187\_ …”. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/3 "2012-03-07T00:45:23Z")
IIRC from my days as an English Lit major, which were a looong time ago so take this with a grain of salt, it was a conceit used by authors/publishers to make a work of fiction seem more real. “We’re protecting the people this really happened to, wink wink.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/4 "2012-03-07T00:47:07Z")
I think it’s done to add verisimilitude to the story, by implying that naming the person would be betraying a confidence or besmirching a reputation. I first noticed it in Poe. ETA: I _knew_ someone would beat me to it while I was dawdling over my answer. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/5 "2012-03-07T00:49:44Z")
Yes. The idea was that the story was true, but the names were changed to protect the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/6 "2012-03-07T00:53:55Z")
Ah, that was one of my theories. Thanks, guys! ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/7 "2012-03-07T02:00:50Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > IIRC from my days as an English Lit major, which were a looong time ago so take this with a grain of salt, it was a conceit used by authors/publishers to make a work of fiction seem more real. “We’re protecting the people this really happened to, wink wink.” Not unlike 555-xxxx telephone numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/8 "2012-03-07T02:29:02Z")
I knew before I opened this thread what it was going to be about! ---
**Author:** ![QuarkChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c5a1d2/32.png) [@QuarkChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuarkChild)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/9 "2012-03-07T03:39:53Z")
I swear I’ve read two versions of Les Mis–one which referred to the “bishop of D–” and the other said “bishop of Digne.” I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/10 "2012-03-07T05:07:39Z")
You’ll sometimes see place names and even dates truncated in the same way, and for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/11 "2012-03-07T06:20:48Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I knew before I opened this thread what it was going to be about! Me too. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/12 "2012-03-07T12:32:45Z")
My favorite take on this was from a short Woody Allen piece, supposedly from a period diary: Should I marry V\_\_\_\_\_\_\_? Not if she w0on’t tell me the rest of the letters in her name. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/13 "2012-03-07T15:41:26Z")
> [@QuarkChild](#): > > I swear I’ve read two versions of Les Mis–one which referred to the “bishop of D–” and the other said “bishop of Digne.” > > I don’t get it. In" Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter there’s a bit talking about translating “Crime and Punishment” into English. In the original, the first sentence refers to “S. Lane” and “K. Bridge” (well, in Russian, of course). But in the context of the geography of St. Petersburg, people figured out that he must have been referring to Stolyarny Lane and Kokushkin Bridge. So is it better to replace “S. Lane” with “Stolyarny Lane” (or even “Carpenter’s Lane”)? It’s up to the translator. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/14 "2012-03-07T16:02:16Z")
In Anna Sewell’s _Black Beauty_, when horses are cruelly treated by a countess, she is referred to as the Countess of W\_\_ . But when they’re cruelly treated by a commoner, he’s “Mr. Skinner”, not Mr. S\_\_. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/15 "2012-03-07T16:20:49Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I knew before I opened this thread what it was going to be about! I though it was going to be about casting quotes in the third person, like this: He asked her, “where would she like to go.” Always brings me up short. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/16 "2012-03-08T00:40:51Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > In Anna Sewell’s _Black Beauty_, when horses are cruelly treated by a countess, she is referred to as the Countess of W\_\_ . But when they’re cruelly treated by a commoner, he’s “Mr. Skinner”, not Mr. S\_\_. That may not have been meant as a nobility/commoner distinction so much as an easily identifiable person vs. a not easily identifiable one distinction. If we play along with the whole “protecting a real person’s identity” thing, there could be thousands of men in England with the last name Skinner. There would, however, be only one Countess of Wessex or whatever at any given time, and anyone could look her up in Burke’s Peerage to find out her full name, where she lived, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/17 "2012-03-08T13:41:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > That may not have been meant as a nobility/commoner distinction so much as an easily identifiable person vs. a not easily identifiable one distinction. If we play along with the whole “protecting a real person’s identity” thing, there could be thousands of men in England with the last name Skinner. There would, however, be only one Countess of Wessex or whatever at any given time, and anyone could look her up in Burke’s Peerage to find out her full name, where she lived, etc. You may have a point. However, after checking my copy of _Black Beauty_, I note that the author gives his full name, Nicholas Skinner, his occupation: “Skinner had a low set of cabs and a low set of drivers; he was hard on the men, and the men were hard on the horses”, and it’s clear that he lives in, or very close to, London. That’s plenty of identification, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/18 "2012-03-08T13:45:26Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/19 "2012-03-08T14:07:35Z")
Yes but there’s nothing unique about that description. There could very well be many people like that and one more fictional one is fine. Bit if you’re referencing a noblewoman, by disguising the name you’re setting up a conceit that this is a real person who could easily be identified and whose identity needs to be protected. The idea is that you could by naming such a person create a risk of harming that person’s reputation or draw a defamation claim. So by using the blank you’re creating a feeling that this fictional character is a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990/20 "2012-03-08T14:31:46Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > You may have a point. However, after checking my copy of _Black Beauty_, I note that the author gives his full name, Nicholas Skinner, his occupation: “Skinner had a low set of cabs and a low set of drivers; he was hard on the men, and the men were hard on the horses”, and it’s clear that he lives in, or very close to, London. That’s plenty of identification, I think. London was, at the time, the biggest city in the world, and had a population of several million. It’s plausible that there could be more than one person with this name and occupation in the London metro area at around the same time, and it would have been difficult for the average reader outside the London area to follow up on this. But only one person can hold a particular noble title at any given time, and information about this person could have been looked up in a book that was pretty widely available. I don’t know if this would have occurred to Sewell, but we might also be meant to imagine that some of the people have been given pseudonyms to protect their identities. However, the “W” in “Countess of W” would have represented a real geographic area and could not be so easily changed. Using a totally made-up place would have seemed obviously phony, and using the name of a different real place would (if we go along with the conceit that _Black Beauty_ is a true story) falsely suggest that an innocent noblewoman in that area was guilty of animal cruelty. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-with-this-convention-in-19th-century-literature/614990.md?page=2)