# What's wrong, if anything, with community colleges? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225 "2010-10-15T09:46:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/61 "2010-12-01T04:58:52Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Also, in my undergrad university, some lower-level requirements could be met by trnsferring credits over from certain designated community colleges. Colorado has an articulation agreement between the community college system and the public four-year institutions that states that if a student receives a full two-year degree and transfers to a public four-year institution, the student will be accepted into the four-year as a junior. Many of the students in my class, therefore, are getting their first two years of college for a significantly lower tuition rate, in significantly smaller classes, closer to their homes, and then transferring to obtain the four-year degree from the receiving institution. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/62 "2010-12-03T04:42:30Z")
> [@SpartanDC](#): > > Just to echo what others have said: The only thing “wrong” with community colleges is that, by their very nature, they’re going to draw less-than-motivated people. I only took one class at a CC (at an institution derided as “12 Mile High” – it was on 12 Mile Road), but the teacher was a perfectly capable instructor who left me with a fairly good understanding of macroeconomics. The students in that class were a mix of class clowns recently graduated from high school, people like me who were squeezing in some credits while on summer break from a 4-year school, and then older adults, including several women who were ready to get back into the workforce after raising their kids. > > But, honestly, unless you simply do not have the means or ability to move away from home, I would almost always recommend a traditional 4-year program to a properly motivated student. While the classes at community college are on par with those at 4-year schools, the extracurricular activities are nowhere near as good. The best part of my college experience was working for a full-blown daily campus newspaper. A community college can’t offer that. It also can’t offer the multitude of clubs, activities, varsity and intramural athletics and other things that are part and parcel of a 4-year school. > > Plus, there’s the stuff you can’t as easily quantify – the experience of living away from home, in a dorm (or just off campus) and navigating the college social scene is more than just an excuse to party and get drunk. It also makes you do some growing up (some of it the hard way). I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. I was explaining this to my daughter. Who is eleven and goes away for a week of summer resident camp every year. I feel very fortunate that we can send her to summer camp (next year it will be two weeks) because summer camp gives you the sorts of opportunities when you are a kid that you just don’t pick up other places. Stay in a cabin with girls your own age. Look after yourself. No mother to solve your problems. The opportunity to try new things - beading, archery, kayaks. But there are counselors (not that much older than you) and a safety net. Someone makes sure three meals are set in front of you. Packing your stuff up at eighteen, moving into a dorm - especially at a smaller college - is like summer camp for young adults. Its an opportunity to grow up, discover yourself, without your parents hanging over you, but with a little supervision (RAs not much older than you) and a safety net. There aren’t the “real” responsibilities of needing to pay rent, or wondering what you are going to eat when you run out of money for the week. And no, its not something everyone wants - and it isn’t something everyone can afford. But yeah, I’d also recommend it as long as the student was ready to anyone on the fence over whether to do it - if it were affordable. But nowadays, it really isn’t affordable to many people. And I wouldn’t go $40k in debt for the Freshman/Sophomore college life experience over a community college. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/63 "2010-12-03T05:11:57Z")
I went to a CC after spending 2 1/2-3 years spinning my wheels at a 4 year college. I was having a lot of personal problems at the time that made it nigh-unto-impossible to study, and I got it into my head that I wanted to be a teacher, when I really do not have the temperament to be one. After a disasterous end to the first part of my 3rd year, I said “I can’t do this” and transferred to the local CC. I got my AA and had a B average. If I’d have been smart I’d have done the 2 year first and found out if I could handle the collegiate grind rather than waste time and money finding out the hard way. I noticed that my classmates at the CC were more interested in the classes and learning something than the ones at the 4 year which made a difference to me. I didn’t feel like an outsider because I wanted to learn something. ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/64 "2010-12-05T02:11:39Z")
I went to a CC. Qualified for University, but had financial problems. Spent 2 years there, and was able to transfer all but .5 units for credit (the course that I couldn’t get credit for was Using the slide rule). Went on to academic success.at a public university; as a scientist, I am published author of scientific papers, etc. Those above who have mentioned the quality of teaching at a CC. Very true. Perhaps I missed the interaction of other students in examining the great questions of life…who knows? I was too busy working and taking all of those science courses to have any time to devote otherwise. I think CC or Jr Colleges are great. My sons both went to 4 year Universities, and did well as expected. One went on to teach at a CC. His doctorate is in Economics from University of California Berkeley. Education is mostly what YOU make of it. ---
**Author:** ![left\_unsaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bbe5ce/32.png) [@left\_unsaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/left_unsaid)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/65 "2010-12-06T14:47:32Z")
One ssue I have w/ CC’s is when people use them as a short cut or cost savings before understanding what their overall goals and objectives are. When Pre-Medical students want to do their "Generals’ at a CC, then transfer them into a four-year University, and think that it won’t impact their chances of getting into Medical School, well… When the transcripts reflect that two out of the four years weren’t done at the four-year school, it just doesn’t bode well. More importantly, the student spends two years at CC, then goes to take upper level Biology and Chem at the four-year, and uh oh, they are way behind, and need to retake those lower classes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/66 "2010-12-06T16:05:49Z")
I did 2 years at CC and 2 years at a University and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in my life. I graduated with the same 4 year degree as everyone else in my major but with no debt. I had some of the best educational experiences in Community College with awesome professors, some of whom I still keep in contact with to this day. I still spent 2 years in the dorms and had the college experience that people get in a 4 year program but I didn’t have to take out loans to do it. I also got to watch as some of the people from my high school who had gone on to really excellent 4 year schools ended up sitting in class with me at the CC for the second semester of their freshman year or the first semester of their sophmore year because they just couldn’t deal with the University experience yet. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/67 "2010-12-06T18:08:20Z")
> [@spenczar](#): > > I would highly recommend this blog post from Sean Carroll (Professor of Physics at Caltech): [“The Purpose of Harvard is Not To Educate People.”](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/29/the-purpose-of-harvard-is-not-to-educate-people/) Ritzy 4-year universities are not really about eduction - they are about research. That’s the primary job of the professors. That’s not true at community colleges, which makes a big difference. In my experience it is actually easier to talk to a professor at a small research institution than at a larger institution more focused on education. it might be easier at a college with no research at all, but what benefit do you get beyond that you’d get talking to a high school teacher? That’s not bad, but well known researchers are well known for a reason, and often are inspiring beyond a middle level teacher. Plus, in an exclusive school, students can educate themselves without being spoonfed. The exciting stuff is hearing what is going on at the frontiers, which you get from professors doing research also. Education also goes beyond the classroom. At MIT every undergraduate gets involved with research, a program just beginning when I was there. At a really good school a student goes beyond just learning stuff to doing original work (not just papers) which get critically judged by experts. I suppose there will always be a need for colleges which forcefeeds education to henhouses full of students and then forces them out the door - but lets not confuse that with what you get at a top school. ---
**Author:** ![b2220128](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/838e76/32.png) [@b2220128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b2220128)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/68 "2010-12-06T18:26:55Z")
Nothing in this discussion trumps the idea that getting the education is far more important in the long run than where you get it. So if a CC fits your budget, go there and don’t worry about what you are missing at another school. A prestigious school may open a few more doors, but it is your hard work that makes your career. ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/69 "2010-12-06T18:38:02Z")
> [@left\_unsaid](#): > > More importantly, the student spends two years at CC, then goes to take upper level Biology and Chem at the four-year, and uh oh, they are way behind, and need to retake those lower classes anyway. Um, no. IME, a class taught at a university and its equivalent at a local community college are exactly the same. In fact, the two usually coordinate to make sure the same material is taught. Some systems even go so far as to number the classes the same way to eliminate any confusion. As for universities and CCs that aren’t local to each other, what difference should that make? Why would a student be “way behind?” The calculus classes I took at a CC in Seattle prepared me just fine for the upper level math courses I took at a university in Portland. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/70 "2010-12-06T18:44:53Z")
Whats wrong with C.C.s. They are not prestigious. The wealthy look down on people who have to go there. As far as education, many are no different than most 4 year schools. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/71 "2010-12-06T18:57:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Whats wrong with C.C.s. They are not prestigious. The wealthy look down on people who have to go there. As far as education, many are no different than most 4 year schools. That’s just something people who can’t get into prestigeous schools say. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/72 "2010-12-06T19:01:28Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > My alma mater operates both a traditional university and a community college. > > University graduates’ starting salaries average 2 to 3 times what the community college graduates can make. If they can find work. Many fields require a master or a doctorate to get work, so there are a lot of unemployed and underemployed graduates. > > Community college graduates don’t make as much money, but they seem to have a much easier time finding work. Before the present recession, the community college claimed a 98% placement rate for its graduates. Weighing in from Canada. From my perspective (generalizing and anecdotal) the situation here is the complete opposite of what you have down south. Most folks I know who went to college (or university-college) have landed stellar, well-paying jobs (often head-hunted before they even graduate) and suckers like me who went to university and then to grad school are chronically unemployed and rolling pennies in order to eat. An increasing trend in Canada is for the legions of unemployed undergraduate degree holding clones to attend a 1 year diploma program at a college in order to start a decent career that doesn’t involve serving coffee. In retrospect…I would have registered at a college if I had known how useless a graduate degree is in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/73 "2010-12-06T19:19:09Z")
> [@b2220128](#): > > Nothing in this discussion trumps the idea that getting the education is far more important in the long run than where you get it. So if a CC fits your budget, go there and don’t worry about what you are missing at another school. A prestigious school may open a few more doors, but it is your hard work that makes your career. We feel that you should go to the best school you can get into and afford. One who had to struggle with algebra shouldn’t even try to get into MIT. And affordability depends on the value one assigns to an education. We know someone who said he couldn’t afford as four year school, even a state school, for his kids, but who had no trouble buying new cars every year. I drove a 14 year old car, but my kids are out of college and have no debt. And don’t underestimate the halo effect. A degree from some schools makes people think you are smart, and it is better if you have to prove you are stupid given a preconception of brilliance versus having to prove you are smart. I’ve seen this first hand. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/74 "2010-12-06T19:21:45Z")
I went the 2-year community college route here in Canada. It wasn’t that I couldn’t cut it academically or financially at a 4-year (I had been accepted where I applied) but stuff happened that summer after grad and I wanted to be closer to home. It was an excellent education. We had normal 9-4 days with lectures and time in the computer labs working on our assignments (it was a tech profession). I feel the only difference between the 2-year program I took and a 4-year degree course is that I had no general education requirements. That’s fine with me. I’m naturally curious (I’m a Doper!) and I don’t need Gen Ed classes to push me into studying feudal Japan or reading and dissecting the classics or learning a new language. All my friends went the university degree route after taking a gap year. So while they were 20 and in their 2nd years of university, I had graduated and gotten a job. Now they are a combination of people finishing up degrees and taking low-paying jobs because their English degrees got them nowhere. It’s so strange, because of the choice I made for my education I can do so many things they can’t and we’re in totally different life stages right now. If my computer dies or my car breaks down I’m not one paycheque away from being on the streets. I’m taking my first international trip. If I didn’t live in the one place in Canada that suddenly had a housing price boom I’d probably own property. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/75 "2010-12-07T09:09:54Z")
> [@left\_unsaid](#): > > One ssue I have w/ CC’s is when people use them as a short cut or cost savings before understanding what their overall goals and objectives are. When Pre-Medical students want to do their "Generals’ at a CC, then transfer them into a four-year University, and think that it won’t impact their chances of getting into Medical School, well… When the transcripts reflect that two out of the four years weren’t done at the four-year school, it just doesn’t bode well. > > More importantly, the student spends two years at CC, then goes to take upper level Biology and Chem at the four-year, and uh oh, they are way behind, and need to retake those lower classes anyway. I found that the “upper level” Biology and Chemistry classes I took at university reiterated a lot that I had already learned in my CC Bio and Chem classes anyway. But then, I went to a CC with **very** strong science and math departments. ---
**Author:** ![kiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@kiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiz)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/76 "2010-12-07T09:22:49Z")
Cpmmunity colleges do have their place as people upthread have described. There are many good ones out there; however, in my experience, they’re overshadowed by the really bad ones. In my neck of the woods CC is looked down upon as either last resort for people who couldn’t get into a 4-year college or the only place for someone who’s disadvantaged in some way. The CCs in my area offer a variety of services, from basic social services to GED classes, ESL programs, you name it. A few of them, from what I understand, are outstanding in these areas; however, the general education program tends to suffer as a result. I’ve been told academically that CCs are akin to a college high school prep program – very easy As for high school graduates, while challenging for others. My HS guidance counselor tried to talk me into attending one as opposed to going right off to university. He thought I’d benefit from a post-grad type of year and gain a bit of maturity. I laughed it off because the last thing I wanted to do in my tidy little prep school was to stick out academically like a sore thumb. In hindsight, though, he was probably correct. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/77 "2010-12-07T15:03:31Z")
> [@b2220128](#): > > Nothing in this discussion trumps the idea that getting the education is far more important in the long run than where you get it. So if a CC fits your budget, go there and don’t worry about what you are missing at another school. A prestigious school may open a few more doors, but it is your hard work that makes your career. There seems to be some controversy on that idea or whether a college degree is really even worth it, once taking into account debt, opportunity costs and other costs. For undergrad, it probably is less important. [For business school, there is a big difference in pay, depending on where you go.](http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/mba_pay_2009.html) Of course, there is nothing that precludes someone from going to community college, then undergrad, then Wharton. I still think that as a general rule, you should go to the best schools you can get into (and fit in at). If nothing else it will provide you with a bit of an edge. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/78 "2010-12-07T16:18:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s just something people who can’t get into prestigeous schools say. My grades would have gotten me into any university in Canada that offered my program. I have no doubt of that. I went to a CC because I wasn’t ready to leave home. Because I delayed when I did, I was better prepared when it was time to leave. Now if I wanted to move to a city where all those grads from the prestigious schools are my portfolio would kick their asses. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/79 "2010-12-07T16:37:24Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > My grades would have gotten me into any university in Canada that offered my program. I have no doubt of that. > > I went to a CC because I wasn’t ready to leave home. Because I delayed when I did, I was better prepared when it was time to leave. > > Now if I wanted to move to a city where all those grads from the prestigious schools are my portfolio would kick their asses. So did you ultimately go to a university or move to the city and kick ass? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/80 "2010-12-07T18:01:52Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > My grades would have gotten me into any university in Canada that offered my program. I have no doubt of that. > > I went to a CC because I wasn’t ready to leave home. Because I delayed when I did, I was better prepared when it was time to leave. Were you really not ready, or just scared? I could have stayed at home and gone to Cooper Union, free, but I chose to move away and I’m glad I did. Dorms are an excellent way of accelerating maturity, since they are kind of a halfway house - you get a lot of the annoying stuff done for you, but you still have to figure out how to study and relate to other people by yourself, and you are also thrown in with your peers far more than you would be at home. If maturity is a function of experience and not just of age (in which case it doesn’t matter where you are) how is being in the same place you were for 17 years going to help? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225.md?page=5)