# What's wrong, if anything, with community colleges? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225 "2010-10-15T09:46:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/101 "2010-12-10T22:11:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s just something people who can’t get into prestigeous schools say. Took the words right out of my mouth except my school was considered “prestigious”. 🙂 I’d be interested in hearing from people who attended “prestigious” universities and also CC for their comparison of the learning experiences. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/102 "2010-12-10T22:18:41Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Right now, approximately 30% of American high school graduates require remedial math, remedial English, or both, when they attend college. That number jumps up to 50% or higher at the community college level. So it’s absolutely possible that a “real university” teaches remedial courses - I knew some people (yes, at Harvard) who had to take pre-calculus math courses in their freshman year. Really? Can you find the link to that course on Harvard’s site? The only circumstance I can think of is that someone was not educated in the US, has some special skills or ambition to make them attractive to Harvard, will be studying something non-math related, but there are at least minimum requirements to have some math on the transcript. I was a math major at a university that can be mentioned in the same breath as Harvard without anyone laughing, and I can assure you we had no “pre calc” classes. Art History folks took a watered down Calculus I and II, and that was it. If they needed to prep for that, I don’t see how they would have been admitted in the first place absent something really really special, and then they would have to go elsewhere to get that class. And they certainly would not get transcript credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/103 "2010-12-10T22:25:47Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Really? Can you find the link to that course on Harvard’s site? The only circumstance I can think of is that someone was not educated in the US, has some special skills or ambition to make them attractive to Harvard, will be studying something non-math related, but there are at least minimum requirements to have some math on the transcript. I attended in the mid- to late 80s. One of the people I remember was someone who I informally helped out with their homework (in a class lower than Calculus) and was the son of a headmaster of a private boarding school, like Exeter (but it wasn’t Exeter, I don’t think). It could very well have been some sort of special arrangement (I really didn’t care that much to find out, and certainly don’t remember now), and if my memory serves, he did not receive credit for the course. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/104 "2010-12-10T23:53:59Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > You do know that both “pre calculus” and “trig” are math at no greater than a 10th grade level, right? What did you and your high school classmates take in 11th and 12th grade? In the most common usage that I’m familiar with, a course called “pre-calculus” would commonly cover about the same content as a “college algebra” course, plus trigonometry. (As a cite, here are the CLEP Test descriptions of [college algebra](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/ex_ca.html) and [Precalculus](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/ex_pcal.html).) “College Algebra” is mainly called that for traditional/historic reasons, dating back to the days when it was much less common to take calculus in high school, as it is indeed a pre-calculus course; but as the name implies, it is considered, at least by some, to be a college-level math course. If my own high school was and still is typical, strong students would typically take such a class in the 11th grade, followed by calculus in the 12th. > [@](#): > > I would question whether a “university” that teaches “trig” is a real university, or a glorified CC, which to me is a glorified HS academically in most cases. > > Just saying… This is needlessly elitist. The most prestigious colleges and universities may have higher requirements, and specific majors certainly do, but one can fulfill general education requirements at a typical college or university with math below the calculus level. As a cite, [here’s the Illinois Transferable General Education Core Curriculum mathematics requirement](http://www.itransfer.org/iai/gened/Default.aspx?section=students&p=m). I can assure you that if you do some searching, you’ll find trigonometry in the catalogs of plenty of “real” universities. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/105 "2010-12-11T01:40:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What did you and your high school classmates take in 11th and 12th grade? The one school I went to for 2 years, they were probably into 2nd year college math by the 12th grade, the school I went to for 1 year after that, they probably were taking algebra, geometry, and trig if they were taking any math at all. I didn’t stick around for my 12th grade year, so I can’t say for certain, but the school was probably on course as a feeder for the local CC for most students, where they would have a chance to try to master material already presented 4 years earlier. > [@](#): > > [college algebra](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/ex_ca.html) and [Precalculus](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/ex_pcal.html).) That is pretty much what I was thinking is 10th grade math. > [@](#): > > but as the name implies, it is considered, at least by some, to be a college-level math course. Yeah, for people who didn’t pay attention in 9th and 10th grade. Why do we call it Algebra I and II then instead of letting the kids know they are really doing College level math? > [@](#): > > If my own high school was and still is typical, strong students would typically take such a class in the 11th grade, followed by calculus in the 12th. I had Algebra I in 8th grade, I realize that I was in the advanced group in the school. Everyone else took it in 9th grade at the local public school. I went to a private school for 2 years, so I am not making my experience to be the norm. But the list of topics included on those pages includes pretty much all of Algebra i, and that is about half of it. Seems to me, Trig was generally part of Algebra II. Anyway, all of it is high school math at best, even if we quibble over what year. Let’s not call it College Math when at least 1/2 of it is Algebra 1. > [@](#): > > As a cite, [here’s the Illinois Transferable General Education Core Curriculum mathematics requirement](http://www.itransfer.org/iai/gened/Default.aspx?section=students&p=m). Let me know when you can transfer those lower level courses to a real university in Illinois such as Northwestern. In the last 20 years or so, a lot of schools have really inflated their names to include University when they deserve no such thing academically. They are just doing branding, I understand that, but don’t be fooled. No school will take those courses for a degree in any way quantitative I bet. If they do, I stick by my claim they are glorified CCs, and probably barely deserving of the name college, other than the fact that they provide post-HS education. That’s not much of a bar to cross though. > [@](#): > > I can assure you that if you do some searching, you’ll find trigonometry in the catalogs of plenty of “real” universities. Well, Berkeley does, [http://math.berkeley.edu/courses\_descripts.html](http://math.berkeley.edu/courses_descripts.html) , but the descriptions pretty much indicate they are remedial HS courses for folks in degree areas that are only somewhat quantitative, and those with a full HS math education will not receive credit for taking those courses. Hard to see how that is “college level” work, as opposed to “college-delivered HS level work”. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/106 "2010-12-11T01:43:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > but one can fulfill general education requirements at a typical college or university BTW, to the extemal that this is true, and I am sure it is true to some extent, it is to the eternal shame of the broader American Education System. I can’t stress that strongly enough. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/107 "2010-12-11T02:10:19Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Harvard offers a very well respected (not surprisingly) Masters in Education (and I’m sure Doctorates as well). Lots of people DO go to Harvard to be teachers. I have the unfounded impression they are the sort of people who can blow a lot of money on a Masters Degree, teach underprivileged children in the Bronx, and still live off their trust funds before marrying very well. I have 2 friends who are high school teachers, each of whom got their MEds at Harvard. Neither of them is a trust-fund kid. They’re regular working people, married to regular working people. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/108 "2010-12-11T02:21:57Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Harvard offers a very well respected (not surprisingly) Masters in Education (and I’m sure Doctorates as well). Lots of people DO go to Harvard to be teachers. I have the unfounded impression they are the sort of people who can blow a lot of money on a Masters Degree, teach underprivileged children in the Bronx, and still live off their trust funds before marrying very well. I’d guess they are either going to be in the classroom only a short while before becoming administrators or curriculum designers or some such, or they are dedicated teachers already mid-career looking to improve their craft. I recently looked at the web site for the prep school I went to in the mid 70s, most of the teachers there have a masters, and at least some of the young ones I remember as just out of college at the time, are still there masters in hand. But probably Harvard does not have an undergrad teaching program right? Because kids that tend to go into those programs are not the stellar performers from high school, so they are left to colleges that cater to those kids. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/109 "2010-12-11T05:13:30Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Took the words right out of my mouth except my school was considered “prestigious”. 🙂 > > I’d be interested in hearing from people who attended “prestigious” universities and also CC for their comparison of the learning experiences. Oh, you spell prestigeous in the common way with an “i”. That’s so adorable!😉 ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/110 "2010-12-11T05:40:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Oh, you spell prestigeous in the common way with an “i”. That’s so adorable!😉 The coeds there even put a little heart over the “i”. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/111 "2010-12-11T11:58:13Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Right now, approximately 30% of American high school graduates require remedial math, remedial English, or both, when they attend college. That number jumps up to 50% or higher at the community college level. So it’s absolutely possible that a “real university” teaches remedial courses - I knew some people (yes, at Harvard) who had to take pre-calculus math courses in their freshman year. That was the case for me. There were other students using that CC math department to take classes preparing them for engineering degrees at other universities, probably considered more “real” than mine. I doubt the Uni I went to was known for its math, though it wasn’t bad for bioscience. Which is why I went there instead of the other local one where my gentleman caller went for engineering, which didn’t have much to speak of for bioscience at all. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/112 "2010-12-11T13:07:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And I get it. But the reality is that if you can graduate with a degree from Harvard, I think you have a lot of opportunities to do more in the fields of education or health care than just teach social studies at some suburban middle school or be an RN. It’s like going to MIT to be an auto mechanic at the local garage. Sort of like Ben Afflecks speech at the end of Good Will Hunting. It’s a waste of your time and a bit of an insult to the other people working their who would love to cash in on your winning lottery ticket. But there are plenty of people who want to teach social studies or be an RN, who don’t want to go into administration or management and who have no desire to rack up additional debt to go to a college that won’t do that much for them. And, as I said, there are fields where the hiring decisions are made by people who didn’t go to Harvard. I’ve been privy to search-committee decisions at the university level where candidates from “prestige” universities were passed over in favor of someone from a less-prestigious university, but who had the background and experience that the committee was looking for. All the connections in the world aren’t going to help you if you don’t have what they’re looking for. Look, I’m not dissing the “prestigious” universities at all. These schools do offer a tremendous opportunity for people who want to take advantage of it. However, they’re not the be-all and end-all of higher education. And please don’t insult me and the zillions of other alumni of state universities and community colleges by saying that we can’t “do better”. Some of us attended these schools by choice; we didn’t settle. MsRobyn ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/113 "2010-12-11T13:47:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And I get it. But the reality is that if you can graduate with a degree from Harvard, I think you have a lot of opportunities to do more in the fields of education or health care than just teach social studies at some suburban middle school or be an RN. It’s like going to MIT to be an auto mechanic at the local garage. Sort of like Ben Afflecks speech at the end of Good Will Hunting. It’s a waste of your time and a bit of an insult to the other people working their who would love to cash in on your winning lottery ticket. Like the women who go to college - regardless of where they go - spend two years in the workforce, then become stay at home moms. Like attorneys who finish law school, determine they don’t like it, and become actors? I’m not sure having ability and the means to enjoy a top private school, but not the ambition to do anything with the degree, should be a gating factor to attending that private school. Prestigious private schools have, in addition to a long tradition of turning out people who are qualified for - as Auntie Mame would say - “seats and bearths” also being a place to simply become a well rounded person. Someone else may want to cash in on their “winning lottery ticket” - but they didn’t win it. Most prestigious schools want diversity (most colleges and universities want diversity). And they recognize that diversity comes not just from race and socio-economic class, but also a diversity of dreams and goals. Particularly in undergrad. I’d think its pretty hard to get a diversity of dreams and goals out of Wharton. But Harvard College? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/114 "2010-12-11T17:54:29Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > But there are plenty of people who want to teach social studies or be an RN, who don’t want to go into administration or management and who have no desire to rack up additional debt to go to a college that won’t do that much for them. And, as I said, there are fields where the hiring decisions are made by people who didn’t go to Harvard. I’ve been privy to search-committee decisions at the university level where candidates from “prestige” universities were passed over in favor of someone from a less-prestigious university, but who had the background and experience that the committee was looking for. All the connections in the world aren’t going to help you if you don’t have what they’re looking for. > > Look, I’m not dissing the “prestigious” universities at all. These schools do offer a tremendous opportunity for people who want to take advantage of it. However, they’re not the be-all and end-all of higher education. And please don’t insult me and the zillions of other alumni of state universities and community colleges by saying that we can’t “do better”. Some of us attended these schools by choice; we didn’t settle. > > MsRobyn Sure, there is need for all kinds of schools, but let’s not pretend that CC’s ar the same as Ivy Leagues. And you are right, most teachers and admins are not from the Ivy League. How are our primary and secondary schools doing again? Oh yeah, they are pushing a lot of their work off on the CCs. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/115 "2010-12-11T17:58:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’d think its pretty hard to get a diversity of dreams and goals out of Wharton. You’d probably think otherwise if you looked into the diversity of top b-schools. men and women from around the country and world in every color shape and size and goal are to be find. Maybe the only shared factor would be ambition and having not attended CC. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/116 "2010-12-11T18:31:04Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > You’d probably think otherwise if you looked into the diversity of top b-schools. men and women from around the country and world in every color shape and size and goal are to be find. Maybe the only shared factor would be ambition and having not attended CC. DREAMS and GOALS…not race, country of origin, shape, size or gender. i.e. you don’t go to Wharton because your dream and goal is to help inner city disadvantaged youth or teach high school, or become a pediatrician, or be a stay at home mom, or even become Ambassador to France. There are other places where its more appropriate to develop those dreams. The diversity you get is “finance, operations, CEO, COO, Partner, or investment banker.” ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/117 "2010-12-11T23:22:14Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > You’d probably think otherwise if you looked into the diversity of top b-schools. men and women from around the country and world in every color shape and size and goal are to be find. Maybe the only shared factor would be ambition and having not attended CC. And some of those B schools are actually A schools when it comes to specific subjects. For instance, the University of Hawaii at Manoa (the main campus), one my alma maters, is a decent school but hardly in the league of Harvard or Stanford … unless you want a degree in horticulture say, as I recall it’s up around #1 or #2 in the country for that. Marine biology too, for some reason. My alma mater in West Texas was one of the best in the country for electrical engineering and animal sciences, a few other areas too IIRC. Sometimes it depends on the specific subject. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/118 "2010-12-12T00:29:14Z")
The Community Colleges I have seen are bastions of fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/119 "2010-12-12T00:32:49Z")
Are you certain those were not penitientiaries? They sometimes have a similar look. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225/120 "2010-12-12T00:39:44Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > The Community Colleges I have seen are bastions of fascism. Well, which is it - hotbeds of liberal indoctrination, or bastions of fascism? It’s so difficult to keep up these days! Is there a schedule I’m supposed to be keeping - M/W/F are the liberal days, T/Th are the fascist days? Or the other way around? Does it rotate on a semester basis? Do I flip a coin and randomly assign each class I teach to either condition? Help me out, here! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-if-anything-with-community-colleges/557225.md?page=7)