# What's wrong with "anchor-baby" citizenship (considering the alternatives)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671 "2010-06-02T17:30:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/81 "2010-06-04T01:55:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Sure. And children born to Jewish mothers _from here on_ can be considered citizens of Israel & therefore not the USA–after all, they have Right of Return, they can go elsewhere, & we’re not taking it away from any child born one second before the law goes into force, just those born from one second after. I can’t see any problems with that, can you? No, not at all, if the Jewish mother is an illegal alien. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/82 "2010-06-04T12:56:40Z")
I agree with those posters in this thread who say family reunification should not be the basis of U.S. immigration policy. It would make more sense to admit immigrants based on their skills, education, what they can add to our national economy and society. But, thing is, I don’t believe “anchor babies,” even taken together with all their relatives, constitute a very significant part of America’s immigration problem (if there **is** a problem). I base that on no actual figures, however. Does anybody have any such figures? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/83 "2010-06-04T14:45:23Z")
If we have 11M illegal immigrants, and if 1/3 of them are women, and if just 10% of them have children here, that’s about 400,000 “anchors”. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/84 "2010-06-04T15:05:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I agree with those posters in this thread who say family reunification should not be the basis of U.S. immigration policy. It would make more sense to admit immigrants based on their skills, education, what they can add to our national economy and society. family reunification isn’t a policy solely because of our liberal largesse. family units function better, integrate better, and contribute to the American economy better when the workers don’t have to worry about their brothers or parents being hacked to death by a machete in the old country. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/85 "2010-06-04T15:09:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we have 11M illegal immigrants, and if 1/3 of them are women, and if just 10% of them have children here, that’s about 400,000 “anchors”. So? I’d trade most of them for the baby-daddy-less meth mouth white trash that procreates in the middle chunk of this country. What, exactly, makes a child born to an American any more or less American than a child born in America to non-American parents? Answer? Nothing. We are a very young country with no historical baggage of blood feuding between small little Duchys and Provinces, and we don’t operate in some Medieval Times where if you’re not a member of “our” group, you aren’t “one of us” (the foundation of hereditary citizenship, for those keeping score) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/86 "2010-06-04T15:41:16Z")
As others have pointed out, children born in the USA to parents illegally present in the country does not automatically “anchor” the parents to the USA. Interestingly enough this morning on a job site I was talking to a backhoe operator who had recently been deported after living 15 years in Las Vegas. He has 3 children born there. His wife is a legal resident. Right now there is a fatherless family of 4 that up until recently enjoyed the income their father/husband brought home each week. Now there are 3 small children who will grow up in a single parent household with the mother either absent due to work or they will go on welfare. So all I can say is pick your poison. Splitting up families, besides being, IMO a inhumane policy, will lead to problems far worse than having a productive undocumented alien amongst you. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/87 "2010-06-04T16:13:30Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > What, exactly, makes a child born to an American any more or less American than a child born in America to non-American parents? The fact that the parent is American–you answered your own question. There is a logical reason why you wouldn’t require naturalization for a child born to American parents. The rule that confers citizenship on children born to illegals is completely arbitrary. I’d word your question differently: What, exactly, makes a child born on American soil any more or less American than a child born elsewhere? Nothing. There is NOTHING magic about being born in a particular place. As I said previously, you might just as well say, “All children, regardless of birthplace, who weigh more than 7 lbs at birth are U.S. citizens.” It makes just as much sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/88 "2010-06-04T16:16:05Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. What population in its right mind wants to voluntarily become a minority group? Mexicans in Mexico certainly don’t. What’s wrong with a “population” becoming a “minority group”? At the time of Independence, it was generally understood that “Americans” were an Anglo-Saxon people and all others were here conditionally and not full members of the nation. Then there came waves of German immigration, and Irish immigration, and Italian and Jewish . . . Now Anglo-Saxon “Old Americans” – D.A.R. material – are a minority of the total population, but we don’t seem to be any worse off for that. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/89 "2010-06-04T16:47:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > The fact that the parent is American–you answered your own question. There is a logical reason why you wouldn’t require naturalization for a child born to American parents. The rule that confers citizenship on children born to illegals is completely arbitrary. I’d word your question differently: What, exactly, makes a child born on American soil any more or less American than a child born elsewhere? Nothing. There is NOTHING magic about being born in a particular place. As I said previously, you might just as well say, “All children, regardless of birthplace, who weigh more than 7 lbs at birth are U.S. citizens.” It makes just as much sense. so then why confer citizenship by descent? it’s just as arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/90 "2010-06-04T17:03:04Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > so then why confer citizenship by descent? it’s just as arbitrary. It is not, if you think about it for even a second. If my wife and I are U.S. citizens, does it honestly seem to you a random, arbitrary, pull-it-out-of-our-asses policy to automatically confer citizenship upon our children? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/91 "2010-06-04T17:11:10Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > It is not, if you think about it for even a second. If my wife and I are U.S. citizens, does it honestly seem to you a random, arbitrary, pull-it-out-of-our-asses policy to automatically confer citizenship upon our children? Really? I didn’t say it was pulled out of one’s ass, like saying you’re an american if you weigh X lbs at birth, and only X lbs. But the notion that an American is American because he’s born to Americans is not more or less arbitrary than the notion that an American is an American because he’s born in America. Do you think you’d be American if you were born in China to Chinese/American parents (and you’ve never set foot Stateside)? Do you think you’d be more American than some person born in Tulsa, Oklahoma (born to illegals, I’ll even give you that)? I am a citizen of a European country by descent. I sure as shit don’t feel like I am a “citizen” of that European country just because of who my parents are/were. About the only thing that I feel in regards to that country is cheering on their Football/Soccer team. And that’s only because Team USA historically sucks. (lest you take this too seriously, that last bit was me being a wee bit sarcastic) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/92 "2010-06-04T17:15:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > It is not, if you think about it for even a second. If my wife and I are U.S. citizens, does it honestly seem to you a random, arbitrary, pull-it-out-of-our-asses policy to automatically confer citizenship upon our children? Really? Your children would be citizens even if they weren’t born in the USA–according to The Current Rules. Otherwise known as The Constitution. But, if we’re going to rewrite the rule about Birthright Citizenship, why stop there? Would their automatic citizenship be the best thing for the country, just because you & your wife were born here & got grandfathered in? Perhaps there ought to be further tests for parents and/or children to ensure that we get the best possible citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/93 "2010-06-04T17:30:09Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Your children would be citizens even if they weren’t born in the USA–according to The Current Rules. Otherwise known as The Constitution. Yes. Do you think I believe I’m suggesting some new rule? I’m pointing out a policy for conferring citizenship that is logical, that is not arbitrary. It also happens to be the rule in place at the moment. > [@](#): > > But, if we’re going to rewrite the rule about Birthright Citizenship, why stop there? Would their automatic citizenship be the best thing for the country, just because you & your wife were born here & got grandfathered in? Perhaps there ought to be further tests for parents and/or children to ensure that we get the best possible citizens. Make the argument if you’d like, but you’re grasping at straws. It is self-evident why it’s a good policy to automatically confer citizenship upon the children of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/94 "2010-06-04T17:32:17Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yes. Do you think I believe I’m suggesting some new rule? I’m pointing out a policy for conferring citizenship that is logical, that is not arbitrary. It also happens to be the rule in place at the moment.Make the argument if you’d like, but you’re grasping at straws. It is self-evident why it’s a good policy to automatically confer citizenship upon the children of citizens. It is similarly self-evident why it’s a good policy to automatically confer citizenship upon children born in the country in question. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/95 "2010-06-04T17:36:01Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > But the notion that an American is American because he’s born to Americans is not more or less arbitrary than the notion that an American is an American because he’s born in America. Really? That’s, well, silly. So it would be logical to you, at least arguable, that all children born to U.S. citizens ought to have to go through naturalization in order to enjoy the benefits of citizenship? I’m not asking you if you’d prefer this, I’m asking if that would be a reasonable, non-arbitrary policy. > [@](#): > > Do you think you’d be American if you were born in China to Chinese/American parents (and you’ve never set foot Stateside)? Do you think you’d be more American than some person born in Tulsa, Oklahoma (born to illegals, I’ll even give you that)? Yes. The child born to an American parent is “more American” than the child born to an illegal in Tulsa. The fact that one’s parents are citizens is the operative point. I don’t care where you were born. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/96 "2010-06-04T17:39:48Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > It is similarly self-evident why it’s a good policy to automatically confer citizenship upon children born in the country in question. No, it’s not, unless you mean it in the sense that “citizenship is good” therefore any policy that expands the people who enjoy that benefit is a good one. There is nothing self-evident about why being born here is the magic condition that should confer citizenship. It is obvious why it is good public policy that U.S. citizens’ children also ought to be considered citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/97 "2010-06-04T17:43:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Really? That’s, well, silly. So it would be logical to you, at least arguable, that all children born to U.S. citizens ought to have to go through naturalization in order to enjoy the benefits of citizenship? Noting that, that is what currently happens if you’re born to one American parent who hasn’t lived in the US past their 15th birthday, yes I am fine with it an no it’s not arbitrary. (note, I’m assuming you meant “born to U.S. citizens abroad” because my obviously preferred method of citizenship acquisition (if we’re going to change it, since I have no problems with how it is now), is citizenship by place of birth) > [@](#): > > The child born to an American parent is “more American” than the child born to an illegal in Tulsa. The fact that one’s parents are citizens is the operative point. I don’t care where you were born. To you. What if you’re born in the caves of Afghanistan, speak not a word of English, and associate with OBL, and have participated in Taliban activities against US Troops. But your parents were both American. Yeah, he’s really “from” America! More American than a child born to Canadian snowbirds who were residing illegally in Florida for 10 years? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/98 "2010-06-04T17:44:20Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > There is nothing self-evident about why being born here is the magic condition that should confer citizenship. I dunno, it seems pretty evident that someone is “from” the place where he or she is born. Or, if you prefer “is of” the place where he or she is born. > [@](#): > > It is obvious why it is good public policy that U.S. citizens’ children also ought to be considered citizens. what public policy is that, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/99 "2010-06-04T17:55:07Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I dunno, it seems pretty evident that someone is “from” the place where he or she is born. Or, if you prefer “is of” the place where he or she is born. It’s not a question of their current address. Or do you think that illegals who were born elsewhere who have lived here for some time ought to get the prize too? And based on your logic, then I suppose that people born to U.S. citizens outside the states are out of luck. And it would not apply, I suppose, to someone born to an illegal in the U.S. who immediately returns with mom and dad to their country, right? Since they’re not “of” this place. > [@](#): > > what public policy is that, exactly? You’re asking what policy I’m referring to in the sentence, “It is obvious why it is good public policy that U.S. citizens’ children also ought to be considered citizens”? Um, that would be the public policy that U.S. citizens’ children are also considered citizens. You know, exactly that one. The one we’ve been discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671/100 "2010-06-04T17:59:19Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > It’s not a question of their current address. Or do you think that illegals who were born elsewhere who have lived here for some time ought to get the prize too? No, because they’re not “from” here. > [@](#): > > And based on your logic, then I suppose that people born to U.S. citizens outside the states are out of luck. As I have described, certain classes of these people are in fact out of luck. And it’s no more or less arbitrary than saying “people born to illegals inside the states are out of luck.” > [@](#): > > And it would not apply, I suppose, to someone born to an illegal in the U.S. who immediately returns with mom and dad to their country, right? Since they’re not “of” this place. No, they actually are “from” and “of” a place if they’re born there and leave like a nanosecond afterwards. Like what are you going to say? No, they really weren’t born in Tulsa? > [@](#): > > You’re asking what policy I’m referring to in the sentence, “It is obvious why it is good public policy that U.S. citizens’ children also ought to be considered citizens”? Um, that would be the public policy that U.S. citizens’ children are also considered citizens. You know, exactly that one. The one we’ve been discussing. saying “it’s good public policy because it’s public policy” isn’t exactly… illuminating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-anchor-baby-citizenship-considering-the-alternatives/541671.md?page=6)