# What's wrong with bidding "nil"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 29, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693 "2010-04-29T00:58:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/1 "2010-04-29T00:58:16Z")
Huh? I heard a couple co workers today bitching about someone else bidding nil in some kind of card game. I remember often doing so back in the day, mostly while playing spades, and getting the same pissed-off reaction. The object of the game is to win, and bidding nil is often the best way to score good points. I don’t play games any more. Too many whiners. 😛 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/2 "2010-04-29T01:24:27Z")
Because it’s boring and slows down the game. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/3 "2010-04-29T01:28:41Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Because it’s boring and slows down the game. It is boring to be losing. I don’t recall the game slowing down any though. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/4 "2010-04-29T02:41:48Z")
Apparently I had no idea what bidding nil actually meant. Ignore me. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/5 "2010-04-29T02:57:01Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Apparently I had no idea what bidding nil actually meant. Ignore me. Guesses count. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/6 "2010-04-29T03:01:21Z")
Nothing wrong with bidding nil. Playing so as to force rivals to take more than they bid is part of the fun. The game I most often play featuring this mechanic is _Rage_, and bidding nil is by no means game-breakingly good even if you pull it off, since you can score only the bid-and-make bonus that way, and nothing for tricks. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/7 "2010-04-29T03:42:00Z")
What do you mean by bidding “nil” in Spades? Is this equivalent of what we always called a “mellow” bid (whereby you are bidding that you will not take any tricks and your opponents attempt to force you to) or a “zero” bid where you get no points (and potentially bags) for any tricks you take? Because I’ve never been in a Spades game that allows a true “zero” bid, only nil/mellow. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/8 "2010-04-29T06:21:27Z")
For Spades, I’ve always used “nil” to refer to what you call “mellow.” Actually, I’ve never heard the term mellow before. I’ve used “zero” if I’m the 1st one bidding and I don’t think I could go nil. Nil is a useful strategy (and can earn a lot of points) but it is difficult to succeed at. The partner needs a good hand and the person calling nil needs to know proper strategy. The person in the OP could be complaining that their partner keeps calling nil but they don’t know how to play it. It gets very frustrating try to cover someone’s mistakes and lose a lot of points. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/9 "2010-04-29T08:27:59Z")
There’s nothing wrong with a “nil” bid, and I’ve never encountered any pissed-off reaction in spades for bidding nil. In fact, it was usually quite an exciting change in the pace of action, with stakes suddenly at 100 points either way. Now, a blind nil is another story. That one I don’t like, and our group of card players did not allow blind nils. Oh, and just fully read **Wolverine** ’s post: yeah, a partner bitching about a partner’s stupid nil bids would make the most sense. Some nils can be elementary, but most require at careful attention and cardplay between partners. If you have a partner who improperly evaluates his hand and bids nils carelessly, that can be frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/10 "2010-04-29T11:28:50Z")
I agree with **Wolverine** and **pulykamell** - this sounds like Spades. Specifically, it could easily by Microsoft Spades, which allows you to play 3 random people over the internet. Typically, the standard is poor, and one or more players will either cease to respond sooner or later in the game, or drop out of the game as soon as they start losing - very frustrating. This game allows the “blind nil” bid (they call it “00” or “double nil” - you get twice the points if it comes off). Very often in these games you will see a 00 or 0 bid with no justification whatsoever (and the standard is so poor that I have even seen a “0” bid from people holding the ace of spades - for those not familiar with the game, it is quite literally impossible to achieve a successful 0 bid when holding the ace of spades). In my opinion, the “00” bid should only be used if you are third or fourth to bid, the other players have already made fairly high bids, and you are so far behind in the scores that only a successful 00 will save you - if you fail, you were going to lose anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/11 "2010-04-29T11:44:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Now, a blind nil is another story. That one I don’t like, and our group of card players did not allow blind nils. Why? Blind Nil/Double Nil can be a sound strategic move, when used judiciously. Granted, there is one exception (see below). > [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > This game allows the “blind nil” bid (they call it “00” or “double nil” - you get twice the points if it comes off). Very often in these games you will see a 00 or 0 bid with no justification whatsoever (and the standard is so poor that I have even seen a “0” bid from people holding the ace of spades - for those not familiar with the game, it is quite literally impossible to achieve a successful 0 bid when holding the ace of spades). In my opinion, the “00” bid should only be used if you are third or fourth to bid, the other players have already made fairly high bids, and you are so far behind in the scores that only a successful 00 will save you - if you fail, you were going to lose anyway. IMO, it should never be allowed in games that are not played for money or with a group that’s not mature enough to use it realistically when there’s nothing at stake. The reason people hate it is it’s not meant to be a “last-ditch” effort to win. It’s supposed to be a strategic gamble when you are one of the last two bidders and your partner has bid a high number of tricks and/or the total tricks bid on the table by the time it comes to you is in the vicinity of 13. I’ve actually played games where two people have gone double nil, and both made it. Frequently if I’m the third bidder, I’ll underbid just to make sure the last bidder doesn’t go double nil. (The only time I underbid when I’m not with a partner that bids overagressively. I tend to be an agressive bidder on the whole. I hate playing at a table where people regularly underbid.) I don’t like playing online, because there’s no reason not to go Double Nil when you are so far down the other team will win in the next hand. So what if you drop another 200 points for missing it? There’s no penalty. When the game is played for some sort of stake, there’s incentive to cut your losses and take what points you can get out of a game, rather than risk going even further in the hole. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/12 "2010-04-29T11:52:26Z")
**Hoopy Frood** makes an excellent point - one that I had not appreciated, never having played the game for money. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/13 "2010-04-29T12:21:32Z")
I play Microsoft Spades quite often while killing time during a download, etc… I admit to bidding NIL quite often. That is, whenever there is a reasonable expectation I could make it. As a seasoned card player, it is quite likely that I will. But… it does depend on what your partner has bid or your oponents. Also, the Computer players are predictable which can better your odds. I also watch the extra trick counter closely and will give as many extra trick to the opponents as I can for the ten bags penalty. I agree with **Hoopy Frood** and **Dead Cat** on the Double NIL. It should only be used when the preceding bids indicate there is a chance for it or as a “Hail Mary” on the last hand. What’s annoying is the NIL then quit , over and over until they get a good hand. Of course, at The Zone there are more serious players and it is not anonymous. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/14 "2010-04-29T12:58:26Z")
Nil is unseen among my friends. We used to play religiously and developed a complex set of rules that no one else I’ve met has ever played by, but as far as nil is concerned, it doesn’t happen. We don’t allow single nil(it’s bullshit), and double nil is nearly impossible so it just doesn’t happen. By our rules, **teams** bid, not individual players, so single nil is not possible. You bid zero as a team, otherwise the minimum is 4. Your rules probably vary. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/15 "2010-04-29T13:08:17Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > What do you mean by bidding “nil” in Spades? Is this equivalent of what we always called a “mellow” bid (whereby you are bidding that you will not take any tricks and your opponents attempt to force you to) or a “zero” bid where you get no points (and potentially bags) for any tricks you take? > > Because I’ve never been in a Spades game that allows a true “zero” bid, only nil/mellow. It’s been many years since I played, but “nil” meant you’d take no tricks and get a bonus if successful. We were pretty casual about the game. I don’t recall hearing “mellow”. Again, my memory is pretty vague. I don’t know what game those people at work talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/16 "2010-04-29T13:58:03Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Nil is unseen among my friends. We used to play religiously and developed a complex set of rules that no one else I’ve met has ever played by, but as far as nil is concerned, it doesn’t happen. We don’t allow single nil(it’s bullshit), and double nil is nearly impossible so it just doesn’t happen. By our rules, **teams** bid, not individual players, so single nil is not possible. You bid zero as a team, otherwise the minimum is 4. Your rules probably vary. Err… who cares? If you’ve developed your own set of rules, bidding,etc. and don’t allow for both NILs then you’re not actually playing spades. :dubious: Furthermore a NIL is not bullshit but a Double NIL might be, which is the point, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/17 "2010-04-29T14:04:18Z")
Everybody has their own house rules for lots of games; that doesn’t make it a different game. Just because Microsoft Spades allows it doesn’t make it the official rules. We don’t allows single nil because it’s too easy to run up the score. I’ve played in games where that is allowed, and unless I have a great hand I go nil pretty much every time and get it. You can play however you want. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/18 "2010-04-29T14:06:12Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > The reason people hate it is it’s not meant to be a “last-ditch” effort to win. It’s supposed to be a strategic gamble when you are one of the last two bidders and your partner has bid a high number of tricks and/or the total tricks bid on the table by the time it comes to you is in the vicinity of 13. Actually, this does make a lot of sense. I’ve only seen it used as a last-ditch effort. In fact, the version I’m familiar with only allows blind nils by the trailing side when they’re down by at least 100 points, hence it only encourages this kind of use. Used strategically (making an educated inference based on the bidding on the table) it can be a worthwhile strategy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/19 "2010-04-29T14:17:37Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Everybody has their own house rules for lots of games; that doesn’t make it a different game. Just because Microsoft Spades allows it doesn’t make it the official rules. We don’t allows single nil because it’s too easy to run up the score. I’ve played in games where that is allowed, and unless I have a great hand I go nil pretty much every time and get it. You can play however you want. Partnership variations of spades are pretty common, but I’ve never heard of a version that eliminates the nil bid. Still, house rules are cool and if that makes you enjoy the game more, go for it. It’s been years since I’ve played spades (the cardplay and bidding got a little repetitive for us and we moved on to other trumped trick-taking games), but I don’t recall nil bids being particularly easy. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/20 "2010-04-29T15:00:33Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I’ve played in games where that is allowed, and unless I have a great hand I go nil pretty much every time and get it. You can play however you want. I’ve played lots of Spades and I’m not sure how this is possible. If the opposing partnership knows what they are doing (i.e. how to attack a nil bid) I’d think you’d get set a lot going nil/mellow that often. It’s rather hard to go nil with 4 or more spades, for example (which you should have \>50% of the time). Or with an unprotected Ace. Or, obviously, with the Ace of Spades (which you should have 25% of the time). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693.md?page=2)