# What's wrong with bidding "nil"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 29, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693 "2010-04-29T00:58:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/41 "2010-04-30T17:23:41Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > when i was in college we played a shit pot of spades. and i think that it was unusual for someone not to go nellow on each deal. > > of course, house rules were that the nil bidder got to pass a card to his partner. and on blind nellows it was a three card pass. > > so that probably changes the dynamics greatly. > > course we were also three sheets to the wind and stoned out of our minds so it kind of had to not involve a lot of cerebral activity. lot’s of “who took the last trick” and “whose turn is it to deal” kind of antics. passing cards is for wimps. I played regularly with some friends who were very good. Sometimes we’d play a version called ‘suicide’ In Suicide one person on each team HAD to bid nil. I wouldn’t recommend playing it every time, but it is very interesting. You have choices to make. As the covering partner 1. Do you try to protect you partner and thereby protect the other team as well? 2. Do you go for the bust of the other nil and risk your partner? 3. Of course, you had to pay attention to find your partners’ short suit and play that one as much as possible to let them dump cards. 4. If yuo discovered a weak suit for your partner (say they played the 4 of hearts on an Ace lead, then you try to bust the other team on hearts.) As the nil partner: 1. If your nil is impoosible, how do you convey that to your partner and try to bust the opponents? Maybe take an early trick and lead low? Bidding was more difficult too. 1. If you were first to bid, do you bid nil or do you hope your partner has a better nil suit? 2. How many ‘extra’ tricks do you think you’ll take because of the garbage tricks? (when the 8 of diamonds wins because everyone is dumping tricks) ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/42 "2010-04-30T19:15:02Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > passing cards is for wimps. i don’t disagree. matter of fact it was more a way for passing the time until we got the chicks drunk enough that we could go to bed and fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/43 "2010-04-30T20:14:00Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > If you ever played with us you’d see our game is actually much more complex, even without any nil bullshit. meh…still isn’t spades though. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/44 "2010-04-30T20:23:14Z")
Must be very lonely and sad living in a rigid world confined by rules in a book written by some guy who works for a playing card manufacturer that’s been arbitrarily deemed “official.” Maybe you should try adjusting the rules for what some of us refer to as “fun.” You might like it. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/45 "2010-04-30T22:52:40Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > In my experience, only a blind nil is worth 100 points, regular nil worth 50. > > I would wager that the success rate on a blind nil (if you have no other knowledge about others bets) is well, well below 50%. In fact, I’m reasonably sure I’ve only made one or two in thousands and thousands of hands (although we generally don’t use them in the games I’m in). For what it’s worth, for years we scored it 100/200, but a nil bid proved so easy to make that we dropped it to 50/100. On the blind nil, we allowed the exchange of one card face-down between partners. And finally, we didn’t call it nil, we didn’t call it mellow, we called it\*\* nello\*\*. According to Google, we weren’t alone in that. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/46 "2010-04-30T23:27:42Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > For what it’s worth, for years we scored it 100/200, but a nil bid proved so easy to make that we dropped it to 50/100. > > On the blind nil, we allowed the exchange of one card face-down between partners. > > And finally, we didn’t call it nil, we didn’t call it mellow, we called it\*\* nello\*\*. According to Google, we weren’t alone in that. “They called it Mellow Nellow” ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/47 "2010-05-01T00:41:25Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > “They called it Mellow Nellow” quite rightly. How can it be so easy to make a nil that you make it only worth the same as taking 5 tricks? I take a certain pride in busting my opponents nil’s, and, in general, it’s even more important than taking your own tricks. IN addition, the nil bid will usually result in bags for that team. Do you play where 10 bags means you lose 100 points? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/48 "2010-05-01T01:26:53Z")
I sometimes forget how [young](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mellow+yellow+lyrics&aq=0p&aqi=g-p1g9&aql=&oq=%22mellow+&gs_rfai=) some of the posters here are. I wouldn’t have it any other way. 🙂 Feel free to click the “play” button. I probably have listened to that while playing spades. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/49 "2010-05-01T02:23:09Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I sometimes forget how [young](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mellow+yellow+lyrics&aq=0p&aqi=g-p1g9&aql=&oq=%22mellow+&gs_rfai=) some of the posters here are. I wouldn’t have it any other way. 🙂 > Feel free to click the “play” button. I probably have listened to that while playing spades. my favorite was Ring of Fire. Once, my partner and I both made nils on the same hand while that song was playing. Granted, one of the opponents had only been playing for about 2 months. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/50 "2010-05-01T02:51:11Z")
We used to play that you can bid “nil” as long as your partner takes at least 4 tricks. We also used to allow passing a single card on nil bets (and two on blind nil). As you might expect, being allowed to pass a card made it quite easy to make nil bids with some regularity. My partner and I once made 6 or 7 nil hands in a row until our group decided to change the rules 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/51 "2010-05-01T06:56:50Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Must be very lonely and sad living in a rigid world confined by rules in a book written by some guy who works for a playing card manufacturer that’s been arbitrarily deemed “official.” Maybe you should try adjusting the rules for what some of us refer to as “fun.” You might like it. Uh…okay then …btw [Edmond Hoyle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_Hoyle) is not who you think he is. I am neither sad or lonely but in my experience it is people who cannot play games well or correctly who feel the need to modify the rules to their own liking or ability. If you don’t like when people bid NIL, learn to defend against it and bid more efficiently than your opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/52 "2010-05-01T08:54:38Z")
If bidding nil is easy, your opponents just aren’t trying. Skilled spades players react to a nil bid like sharks to chum. I crush nil bids regularly, and I consider myself a moderately skilled player at best. My friend is probably competition-level skilled, and he’d probably love to play for cash against anyone that thinks nils are easy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/53 "2010-05-02T02:09:05Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > quite rightly. > > How can it be so easy to make a nil that you make it only worth the same as taking 5 tricks? Because 100 + the partner’s bid is just too many points for a play that’s basically finding out you have a crappy hand. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/54 "2010-05-02T03:05:24Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Because 100 + the partner’s bid is just too many points for a play that’s basically finding out you have a crappy hand. But the risk is great as well. you lose 100 points if your busted and you get bags for the over tricks. If the opponents of a nil play it correctly, they should have a good chance for busting the nil, and barring that, they should be able to load the other team with bags. A bag is a trick over the number that your team bid. I asked before, but doesn’t everyone play 10 bags is also worth negative 100 points? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/55 "2010-05-02T15:09:25Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I asked before, but doesn’t everyone play 10 bags is also worth negative 100 points? My group in high school didn’t. Not much else to do when study hall is in the gym. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/56 "2010-05-02T15:22:21Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > My group in high school didn’t. > > Not much else to do when study hall is in the gym. That’s another thing, or maybe the same thing, what’s the problem with sandbagging? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693/57 "2010-05-02T16:28:51Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s another thing, or maybe the same thing, what’s the problem with sandbagging? Yeah, that’s an odd one. Sandbagging is essential to the game’s dynamic. Also, passing should not be allowed on nil bids. At least not on regular nil bids. I seem to recall passing two for blind nils, but no passing on normal nils. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-bidding-nil/537693.md?page=2)