# What's Wrong With Black Lives Matter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879 "2016-08-15T04:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/221 "2016-08-18T16:55:06Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Your being hopelessly naïve if you don’t think they are doing just that. Somehow I’m unconvinced. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/222 "2016-08-18T17:00:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you agree or disagree with my point that modern police work, even when done without a hint of racism or any violations of civil liberties, still engenders resentment from the policed populace? Disagree. My place of work has police everywhere. And I mean goddamn everywhere. I don’t have to worry one whit that I’m going to be illegally searched, profiled on thin pretext, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/223 "2016-08-18T17:24:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The police poisoned community relations through decades of abusing the black population. Oppression of civil liberties, tearing apart families, destruction of communities… What are you talking about? “Destruction of communities”? Huh? “Tearing apart families”? Are you talking about when the police arrest suspected criminals? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/224 "2016-08-18T17:30:04Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Oh, did the tests come back from the lab? If you’ll go back to post #211, you’ll notice that Ravenman said, “For a moment, let’s just set the accusation of racism in such policies aside …”. That’s what I was doing in #212 and #217. Do you understand that neither myself nor Ravenman are claiming that there’s no racism in police, but that we were focusing on different factors / aspects of the police-community relationships? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/225 "2016-08-18T17:31:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What are you talking about? “Destruction of communities”? Huh? “Tearing apart families”? Are you talking about when the police arrest suspected criminals? I think he’s talking about most of American history, in which black people had plenty to fear from law enforcement. When do you think it is that, say, the all-white police department of Birmingham Alabama (which didn’t allow it’s first black policeman [until 1966](https://news.wbhm.org/feature/2013/leroy-stover-birminghams-first-black-police-officer/)) stopped being a white supremacist institution that utilized [casual brutality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Connor#Children.27s_Crusade) against the black people of Birmingham (or dozens of others cities throughout the country)? Do you think they stopped all at once, and in 1966 there were no longer any white supremacist cops in Birmingham? Did the white supremacist brutality stop all at once too, or might it have lingered for a matter of years or decades? Is it possible that decades and centuries of incredible brutality against black people by law enforcement might engender some feelings among some black people that police are brutally violent enemies? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/226 "2016-08-18T17:34:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Disagree. My place of work has police everywhere. And I mean goddamn everywhere. I don’t have to worry one whit that I’m going to be illegally searched, profiled on thin pretext, or whatever. I don’t know anything about your workplace, but my point has nothing to do with whether one has to worry about being illegally searched. I’m claiming that the act of being searched by the police, even when it’s perfectly legal, is annoying, harassing, a tad humiliating, etc, and that that act, even when legal, causes the person searched to dislike the police and the way they are being treated by them. Let me ask an aside: what % of police searches do you think are illegal or unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/227 "2016-08-18T17:35:51Z")
He said set it aside to consider the issue of civil rights violations qua civil rights violations. Because whether or not it’s racist to conduct illegal searches, it is illegal. He was referring to a specific subset of cases. You then said no, let’s set aside both race and civil rights violations, and asked him whether he believes that non-racist, non-rights violating police work angers people. I’m asking you, what’s supposed to be his data set for that question? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/228 "2016-08-18T17:46:07Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m asking you, what’s supposed to be his data set for that question? Well, the paragraph from the NYT I cited in #212, and the data it was based on, seems to be a pretty good starting point for that discussion. Here it is again: > [@](#): > > Searches are not common — officers in North Carolina, for example, conduct them in just one in 40 traffic stops. But they have an outsize impact on police-civilian relations. Surveys show that minorities, especially blacks, are much less likely than whites to say officers acted properly at a traffic stop. **But far fewer drivers of all races rate the police positively if they are searched.** ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/229 "2016-08-18T17:52:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know anything about your workplace, but my point has nothing to do with whether one has to worry about being illegally searched. I’m claiming that the act of being searched by the police, even when it’s perfectly legal, is annoying, harassing, a tad humiliating, etc, and that that act, even when legal, causes the person searched to dislike the police and the way they are being treated by them. > > Let me ask an aside: what % of police searches do you think are illegal or unconstitutional? I have no idea how many civil rights violations police commit. But let me understand your claim better: are you contending that people - and communities - are _just as annoyed_ by legal police methods as they are by illegal police methods? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/230 "2016-08-18T17:52:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Let me ask an aside: what % of police searches do you think are illegal or unconstitutional? As a white dude, I have no way of even hazarding a guess. Popo tend to treat me with respect. Now, we have a friend, a black woman, who will no longer visit us and go horseback riding. On three visits she was pulled over twice for driving while black in our rural town. The first time the cop kept his giant flashlight trained on her face and asked her if she was lost, the second time the cop told her she was driving erratically, which was a totally manufactured lie. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/231 "2016-08-18T18:03:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > are you contending that people - and communities - are _just as annoyed_ by legal police methods as they are by illegal police methods? No, not exactly. To answer your question first, I suspect that having the police illegally search me / my car / my home _illegally_ would be more annoying than if they did it legally, but I suspect two additional things about police searches: 1. the overwhelming majority are probably done legally 2. most people in America, particularly those subjected to police searches, probably aren’t very capable of distinguishing between a legal search and an illegal one (they probably don’t understand much about consent, probable cause, warrant requirements, etc.) So, like the NYT found, I think it’s the act of searching (and other police work like arresting people, traffic citations, shooting people who are perceived as threats, etc), that does more to engender the ‘divide’ between communities and police than the small fraction of police work that’s done illegally. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/232 "2016-08-18T18:06:02Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > As a white dude, I have no way of even hazarding a guess. Popo tend to treat me with respect. What does being white have anything to do with hazarding a guess about the % of police searches that are illegal? Do you think you could hazard a guess about the % of police shootings that are justified or not? I’ve never been the subject of a police shooting, but there’s enough second-hand information out there about them for us to draw some reasonable conclusions about most of them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/233 "2016-08-18T18:07:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What are you talking about? “Destruction of communities”? Huh? “Tearing apart families”? Are you talking about when the police arrest suspected criminals? You are sitting in front of a computer, which is connected to the internet, which contains billions of pages of information about every topic under the sun. Thanks to the miracle of the modern age you are capable of educating yourself to an arbitrary amount about any topic you choose. On the topic of the treatment of black communities by the police, the arbitrary level you have apparently chosen is zero. Which seems like an odd choice for someone engaged on an active debate on the topic. But you do you. If at some point you decide to educate yourself, maybe you should start with the [DOJ report on the Ferguson police department](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf). I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/234 "2016-08-18T18:23:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What does being white have anything to do with hazarding a guess about the % of police searches that are illegal? Do you think you could hazard a guess about the % of police shootings that are justified or not? As a response to this and your previous post, I’m at a loss of what you’re trying to get across here. If a community is subject to more frequent searches, both legal and illegal, but the number of illegal searches is subjectively judged as low; that the community should stop complaining about how the police do their job? Even though you’re the one making the point that even legal searches make people not like police? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/235 "2016-08-18T18:39:53Z")
Wow, that was a fun read. So let’s recap. On one side, we have a group of people who: 1. Believe that protesting about unjust shootings of black people is evil/stupid/wrong (insert word of choice) because… any of the following: a) [Black women apparently](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19554970&postcount=1) [don’t get targeted too](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555596&postcount=6) (Which was [false](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555118&postcount=3) and police shootings is only [part](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555886&postcount=17) of institutional racism.) b) [Some protestors](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555782&postcount=14) [go too far](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19557328&postcount=77), therefore we should ignore the issues or the message and call it a wash and that nothing is fixable. c) They’re not [also](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556402&postcount=51) protesting gangs [simultaneously](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555942&postcount=22) because gang violence causes more black deaths. (Even though there are [plenty](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556270&postcount=37) of marches and [protests](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19559504&postcount=118) about gang violence, and gang members are prosecuted and put in [jail](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555975&postcount=24), meaning it’s already being [addressed](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555975&postcount=24) on an institutional level, while police shootings are reacted to defensively by police organizations, and with lies and cover-ups.) d) Some police actually do get put on trial for their crimes. (But without [evidence](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556119&postcount=31) that the police have resisted allowing, and actively suppress, many walk free.) e) Those being shot are sometimes criminal “[shitbags](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556087&postcount=30)” warranting an on-the-spot execution for drug possession or stealing beer, when such actions are not proportionally taken against white suspects (nor should they). If the person was committing a crime, obviously they need to be shot to [death](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556315&postcount=39), not apprehended lawfully in similar proportions to white suspects. I guess white people who commit crimes or carry guns are less scary for some [reason.](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias) f) They don’t like aspects of the [movement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556253&postcount=35) [itself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19563255&postcount=204). Obviously the movement needs to be 100% accurate in defending victims of police crime and never try to defend someone who then turns out to be shot in a justified manner, or [ever](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556325&postcount=41) behave unlawfully themselves. Meanwhile, the police need no such flawless record to be defended indiscriminately, and given the annoying or sometimes hypocritical or [inconsistent](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19558265&postcount=96) nature of a nation-wide movement, versus actual immoral killings, obviously the annoying political movement is worse and the cop killings are ok. Or what was your point? g) Unjustified shootings are simply a [narrative](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556555&postcount=57) being spun by race-baiting thugs. They’re probably not happening or aren’t happening, and when an example exists of a justified killing, that obviously means BLM should just pack up and go home and ignore the unjustified ones. h) “Black lives matter” seems to imply white lives don’t matter. Which is obviously [false](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556773&postcount=65) and [not](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19557149&postcount=71) the point of the slogan, and very few people misunderstand it that way. You’d have to have a serious lack of empathy and/or imagination to believe that is what it means. If [this](http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon-590x210.png) is the reason you don’t support the message behind BLM, maybe that’s a you problem. 1. Can’t be bothered to [read](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555892&postcount=18) before debating a subject they obviously [care](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19564202&postcount=233) so much about. They’re obviously \*deeply \*invested in this debate and aren’t just being contrary because of other less wholesome motivations such as bigotry, or lack of empathy. 2. Are obviously more _[concerned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19555942&postcount=22)_ about black lives than the [protesters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19563740&postcount=213). The protesters don’t care about black lives, obviously. Highlighted [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556269&postcount=36). Just experts telling us dumb people what to think because we’re too dumb to take care of ourselves or be concerned for ourselves. Kind of like how the people who write for Forbes are more \*concerned \*about the well-being of those on the minimum wage than those who are fighting for a wage increase. (I believe I referred to that kind of \*concern \*as a type of… :rolleyes:) 1. Believe that unless [perfect](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556391&postcount=48) results are achieved by counter-measures taken, they’re [not worth taking](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556396&postcount=50). 2. Speculate that body cameras don’t help based on [hypothetical](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556555&postcount=57) comparisons between what actually happened and what might have happened if there was no body camera. [Eh?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556575&postcount=58) In other words, reality isn’t perfect and isn’t as good as the reality that exists in my imagination, so obviously progress in reality is bad, and no progress is better. Just like how in Seattle, wages and employment and hours all being up is actually \*bad \*news, when compared with the \*even-better-than-Seattle \*imaginary Seattle in supply-sider’s brain in the minimum wage debate, where everyone would have been better off with less money and depressed wages and voodoo economics would have caused a mythical boom that is always just around the corner if we just had kept wages stagnant. That’s a great way to argue, btw, compare fiction with reality and go fiction is better, let’s live there instead of in the real world. 3. Say that since black communities are often rife with drugs and crime, that [must](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19558511&postcount=101) be a symptom of their being black, not a symptom of their being poor and marginalized [due to their race](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19557657&postcount=81). So before we enact any changes, we must first… what? [Insist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19558730&postcount=106) that crime and drug usage in black communities is reduced to levels in white communities? Or what was the point of that? The argument that nothing should be done because crime is higher there means what? They deserve all the unjustified police shootings? [What](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19556711&postcount=63) is your point, exactly? 4. Think that BLM are [imagining](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19557793&postcount=84) racism exists, and blaming cops for something they’re not doing. It’s obviously exaggerated, and nothing compared to… [oh, wait](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19558170&postcount=92). 5. Say that since blacks experience other problems, fixing this one [shouldn’t](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19559228&postcount=109) matter to them. :rolleyes: After all, since [most](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19559283&postcount=113) problems in your life aren’t a result of racism, fighting institutional racism that results in needless deaths is silly. 6. Are [pretty sure](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19561668&postcount=155) they’re the experts on this subject matter that doesn’t affect their lives. Reality [notwithstanding](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19561978&postcount=167). 7. Most police are [decent](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19562495&postcount=196), therefore… what? No response to unlawful killings or immoral killings, institutional racism, concealment of evidence, tampering of witnesses, telling people to turn their cell phone cameras off, falsifying reports? How about some training and more consistent application of the law regardless of race? How about not being more [afraid](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19562501&postcount=197) of a black man with a gun than a white man with a gun? Is that possible? How about not pulling people over for driving while black? Since there are good cops we can’t do anything about bad ones? We don’t need chicken shit cops who are afraid of the scary black man, but _same_-sized white guy with the \*same \*gun is less scary to them. 8. Shootings of police happen in a vaccuum and have nothing to do with the behavior of police toward the black community or the [history](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19564090&postcount=225) of the police. Even though black people exist elsewhere besides just the United States, aren’t unfairly targeted by the police there, and don’t have disproportionate numbers of police officers shot by black suspects. * * * On the other side we have a group of people who ask that something be done about police officers shooting unarmed black people, or black people who are legally carrying a weapon and cooperating, or black people who are resisting arrest but do not pose an immediate danger to the lives of the officer or others, who ask that black suspects be treated like suspects in the same way white suspects are, and that they aren’t summarily executed when the cameras are off for the crime of having a bag of weed, stolen alcohol, or something else that should be policed, not exterminated. Things like: Training programs to help target and eliminate bias by police. Such programs have been carried out successfully before. Like [here](http://www.pressherald.com/2016/07/09/dallas-took-action-to-reform-police-force/), and [here](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/cincinnati-police-reform/393797/), and [here](http://qz.com/565011/how-one-of-the-largest-police-forces-in-america-stopped-shooting-people/). With results including: > [@](#): > > Things have continued to improve under Dallas Police Chief David Brown, who took command in 2010. **Between 2009 and 2014, citizen complaints of excessive force by Dallas officers dropped 64 percent, according to police department data.** > [@](#): > > Looking back, the results of Cincinnati’s reform efforts are startling. Between 1999 and 2014, Cincinnati saw a 69 percent reduction in police use-of-force incidents, a **42 percent reduction in citizen complaints and a 56 percent reduction in citizen injuries during encounters with police** , according to a report by Robin S. Engel and M. Murat Ozer of the Institute of Crime Science at the University of Cincinnati.\*\* [COLOR=Green]Violent crimes dropped from a high of 4,137 in the year after the riots, to 2,352 last year. Misdemeanor arrests dropped from 41,708 in 2000 to 17,913 last year.\*\*[/COLOR] With reasonable alterations and expectations: > [@](#): > > Some of the changes were small: The police department vowed to hold a press conference within 12 hours of any officer-involved shooting and to provide information as well as camera footage from the event. It agreed to track officers who received an inordinate number of complaints or who violated policies, and take disciplinary action if needed. It established a Citizen Complaint Authority with investigative and subpoena powers over police. It adopted new use-of-force policies, changed guidelines on when to use chemical spray, and established a mental-health response team to deal with incidents in which a suspect may have mental-health problems. And changing of obviously flawed mindsets on the institutional level: > [@](#): > > There were certain things that were expected of Maris Herold when she first became a cop. She was expected to write a few traffic tickets a month, issue some parking tickets, and get a misdemeanor arrest, a felony arrest, and a DUI arrest. If police were out making arrests, the thinking went, they were proactively preventing crime. So Herold followed the guidelines, got positive evaluations, and was seen by supervisors as a good cop. So we have a debate between people with ideas, with a record of positive change, trying to have an intellectual debate with people who (a) don’t care (b) aren’t impacted (c) can’t be bothered to read (d) are simply reacting out of dislike for the movement, and don’t give a damn about the deaths and racial mistreatment. Not enough to allow for any meaningful action to be taken, and (e) have zero ideas of their own and a proven record of no changes resulting in even worse relations between police and communities they police. It’s a good debate. It’s like debating with a five-year old. Except this five year old has the ability to vote and seems intent on blocking all progress. A real worthwhile debate between two equally valid positions. It sucks, but that’s politics in a America. Progress and empathy versus apathy and ignorance, and status quo because change makes me feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/236 "2016-08-18T18:47:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You are sitting in front of a computer, which is connected to the internet, which contains billions of pages of information about every topic under the sun. Thanks to the miracle of the modern age you are capable of educating yourself to an arbitrary amount about any topic you choose. On the topic of the treatment of black communities by the police, the arbitrary level you have apparently chosen is zero. Which seems like an odd choice for someone engaged on an active debate on the topic. But you do you. > > If at some point you decide to educate yourself, maybe you should start with the [DOJ report on the Ferguson police department](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf). I won’t hold my breath. Don’t be a dick. I read the summary. It read like a NYT op-ed (which, coming from me, is not a compliment), so I decided to not waste my time with the rest. I will say that the two areas of focus I saw were 1) the municipal police department and court seem focused on generating revenue, which is probably true of most muni PDs and courts across the country (I certainly feel like it’s the case with my city, and it’s got nothing to do with race here in lily-white Utah), and 2) there has been disparate impact on blacks, which seems to be a bit light on analysis of the racial disparities in crime. The emphasis seems to be on “2/3 of Ferguson residents are black, but more than 2/3 of searches / arrests / fines are for black residents”. Look, if one particular neighborhood in a city is on fire, I want the fire department to dump all the water on that neighborhood, not spread the water equally amongst all the neighborhoods in the city. The same idea is true of policing too: I went them to focus on where the crime is happening. So should the victims of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/237 "2016-08-18T18:48:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As a response to this and your previous post, I’m at a loss of what you’re trying to get across here. If a community is subject to more frequent searches, both legal and illegal, but the number of illegal searches is subjectively judged as low; that the community should stop complaining about how the police do their job? > > Even though you’re the one making the point that even legal searches make people not like police? I think the point is comparing the relative causes of negative feelings toward the police. Illegal activity by police is definitely a cause. Legal activity by police is also a cause. IOW, most police contact is non-consensual and so any increased contact will engender negative sentiment. What I think \*\*HD \*\*is saying is that even eliminating all illegal police activity will have a small impact on people’s sentiment towards police. We should still eliminate illegal police behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/238 "2016-08-18T18:48:52Z")
[/thread] ETA: Referring to pizzaguy’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/239 "2016-08-18T18:49:31Z")
I think a reasonable conclusion to draw from this thread is that everyone agrees with the vast majority of BLM’s objectives, it’s the tone of that movement a few take issue with. Apparently that is enough for these individuals to not support them. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/240 "2016-08-18T18:51:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Don’t be a dick. I read the summary. It read like a NYT op-ed (which, coming from me, is not a compliment), so I decided to not waste my time with the rest. I will say that the two areas of focus I saw were 1) the municipal police department and court seem focused on generating revenue, which is probably true of most muni PDs and courts across the country (I certainly feel like it’s the case with my city, and it’s got nothing to do with race here in lily-white Utah), and 2) there has been disparate impact on blacks, which seems to be a bit light on analysis of the racial disparities in crime. **The emphasis seems to be on “2/3 of Ferguson residents are black, but more than 2/3 of searches / arrests / fines are for black residents”. Look, if one particular neighborhood in a city is on fire, I want the fire department to dump all the water on that neighborhood, not spread the water equally** amongst all the neighborhoods in the city. The same idea is true of policing too: I went them to focus on where the crime is happening. So should the victims of crimes. So let’s just say that African Americans made up 1% of a population and were 100% of the searches/arrests/fines. That must be where the fires are, huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=13)