# What's Wrong With Black Lives Matter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879 "2016-08-15T04:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/21 "2016-08-15T16:23:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding is that “Campaign Zero” is the #BlackLivesMatter’s response to criticism for not having clearly-defined policy ideas. I certainly didn’t intend to mis-characterize their goals. My understanding is that “Campaign Zero” is the criminal justice reform component of the overall organization. If you look at [blacklivesmatter.com](http://blacklivesmatter.com) you can clearly see the overall goals of the organization (look under “What We Believe”). One of the goals of the organization is to end sexism and misogyny experienced by black women. That’s probably a pretty good reason why the OP’s suggestion is not, in fact, a piercing criticism of the organization, but is actually more telling of his ignorance of what they are trying to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/22 "2016-08-15T16:30:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > OP, which do you suppose is the main goal of Black Lives Matter: ending the influence of racism in society, or just cutting back on the number of black men killed? Neither. If they cared about the number of black men killed, they’d focus their attention to black gang members. When a black person is killed by a cop, justifiably or not, it accounts for less than 1% of black homicides. When a black person is killed, over 90% of the time it is at the hands of another black person, usually a gang member. Black people, despite accounting for only 13-14% of the US population, account for half of the homicides; most committed by the 15-34 year-old male demographic (4% of the US population). Then there’s the high absentee father rates among the black community. The BLM couldn’t care less about black lives. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/23 "2016-08-15T16:38:17Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Neither. > > If they cared about the number of black men killed, they’d focus their attention to black gang members. When a black person is killed by a cop, justifiably or not, it accounts for less than 1% of black homicides. > > When a black person is killed, over 90% of the time it is at the hands of another black person, usually a gang member. > > Black people, despite accounting for only 13-14% of the US population, account for half of the homicides; most committed by the 15-34 year-old male demographic (4% of the US population). > > Then there’s the high absentee father rates among the black community. > > The BLM couldn’t care less about black lives. It’s perfectly legitimate to start a movement about unnecessary police killings. It may be a relatively small number, but holding police officers accountable for unnecessary deadly force is an important goal. Gang killings are also bad, but you don’t really need a political movement to stop that, it’s already subject to law enforcement and prosecutor efforts.(a political movement could be organized around this if you think those efforts are insufficient, but that’s a different moment than BLM). ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/24 "2016-08-15T16:39:49Z")
When gang members murder people, they go to jail. When police officers murder people they get a paid vacation and the support of the entire country. Stop trying to act like BLM is supposed to be a “murder is bad” organization. Murder is routinely punished, unless an officer does it. That’s the main issue, not “there are still murder victims in the world”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/25 "2016-08-15T16:39:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > My understanding is that “Campaign Zero” is the criminal justice reform component of the overall organization. If you look at [blacklivesmatter.com](http://blacklivesmatter.com) you can clearly see the overall goals of the organization (look under “What We Believe”). > > One of the goals of the organization is to end sexism and misogyny experienced by black women. That’s probably a pretty good reason why the OP’s suggestion is not, in fact, a piercing criticism of the organization, but is actually more telling of his ignorance of what they are trying to achieve. Did they have a rally to end sexism or be queer-affirming? Because if so, I missed it. I also don’t regularly hear their spokespeople bringing these topics up in interviews. My contention is that, despite the pretty words on their flashy website, they don’t invest more than a minuscule fraction of their effort in being “transgender affirming”. All of the “enthusiasm” in the #BlackLivesMatter movement seems to be directed at the police. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/26 "2016-08-15T16:42:46Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > When gang members murder people, they go to jail. When police officers **murder** people they get a paid vacation and the support of the entire country. Stop trying to act like BLM is supposed to be a “murder is bad” organization. Murder is routinely punished, unless an officer does it. That’s the main issue, not “there are still murder victims in the world”. You may be working from a different definition of “murder” than me. If the officers are getting paid vacations and support of the entire country, odds are excellent that it was a justifiable killing, which is not at all the same thing as “murder”. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/27 "2016-08-15T16:58:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You may be working from a different definition of “murder” than me. If the officers are getting paid vacations and support of the entire country, odds are excellent that it was a justifiable killing, which is not at all the same thing as “murder”. No, the odds are not great at all. You’re ignoring the issue. Or just asserting that it doesn’t exist. Do you read or watch the news? It isn’t some subtle trend we have to tease out of the statistics. There are blatant murders, frequently committed by police officers against mostly poor minority citizens, and they consistently go unpunished. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/28 "2016-08-15T17:00:16Z")
Unless you’re taking the popular route of declaring that any police killing is by definition not murder. In that case, neither was the Holocaust. Have fun with that position. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/29 "2016-08-15T17:12:06Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Unless you’re taking the popular route of declaring that any police killing is by definition not murder. Of course not, most police killings are justifiable. Some tiny fraction are “murder” or manslaughter or some other form of unjustifiable killing. Darren Wilson shooting Michael Brown as he charged towards him: completely justified, nothing criminal, not “murder”. Michael Slager shooting Walter Scott in the back as he ran away: probably not justified, which is why Slager is currently awaiting trial for murder and is also facing federal charges. He was arrested and held without bail for 9 months. Now he’s under house arrest. He’s a long ways from “a paid vacation and the support of the entire country.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/30 "2016-08-15T17:14:38Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No, the odds are not great at all. You’re ignoring the issue. Or just asserting that it doesn’t exist. Do you read or watch the news? It isn’t some subtle trend we have to tease out of the statistics. There are blatant murders, frequently committed by police officers against mostly poor minority citizens, and they consistently go unpunished. Which ones are you thinking of? There are a handful of the headline-grabbing cases that seem to have been unjustified, but in most of them, #BlackLivesMatter seizes on some dead shit-bag who was in the middle of doing criminal things when he was justifiably killed and tries to use him (or her) as a poster child. This latest Milwaukee incident is exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/31 "2016-08-15T17:23:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Of course not, most police killings are justifiable. Some tiny fraction are “murder” or manslaughter or some other form of unjustifiable killing. > > Darren Wilson shooting Michael Brown as he charged towards him: completely justified, nothing criminal, not “murder”. > > Michael Slager shooting Walter Scott in the back as he ran away: probably not justified, which is why Slager is currently awaiting trial for murder and is also facing federal charges. He was arrested and held without bail for 9 months. Now he’s under house arrest. He’s a long ways from “a paid vacation and the support of the entire country.” If there had been no video of the Scott shooting (or for another example, the Officer Groubert shooting in South Carolina), do you think Slager would have been prosecuted? I don’t. And I think that some significant percentage of non-recorded shootings are similarly bad shootings, but covered up by the shooter and his/her comrades. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/32 "2016-08-15T17:37:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If there had been no video of the Scott shooting (or for another example, the Officer Groubert shooting in South Carolina), do you think Slager would have been prosecuted? I don’t. Groubert, perhaps (there were a lot of witnesses standing around, and the victim lived to testify). Slager, you’re probably right, it seems unlikely he’d have been prosecuted absent the video. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I think that some significant percentage of non-recorded shootings are similarly bad shootings, but covered up by the shooter and his/her comrades. Perhaps. I don’t know what you mean by “significant percentage”. Look, I generally dislike police (I’ve been banned from other internet forums for being too vocally “anti-cop”). I’m strongly in favor of police body cameras to let us, the public they’re supposed to serve, have a hand in deciding for ourselves whether we think they were justified in their uses of deadly force, rather than just reading their report about the incident afterwards. But posts like #24 and #27 seem so far over-the-top that they’ve lost touch with reality. I don’t see “blatant murders” by police frequently going unpunished. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/33 "2016-08-15T17:52:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps. I don’t know what you mean by “significant percentage”. The only good data that I know of is the reports of individual black people, since this is specifically about cases in which police data can’t be trusted. I don’t know exactly, but more than just a few %. > [@](#): > > Look, I generally dislike police (I’ve been banned from other internet forums for being too vocally “anti-cop”). I’m strongly in favor of police body cameras to let us, the public they’re supposed to serve, have a hand in deciding for ourselves whether we think they were justified in their uses of deadly force, rather than just reading their report about the incident afterwards. But posts like #24 and #27 seem so far over-the-top that they’ve lost touch with reality. I don’t see “blatant murders” by police frequently going unpunished. Maybe they’re over the top (or maybe not – I won’t judge that) – but posting over the top is nothing compared to police officers routinely mistreating (including killing) black people, if these concerns are valid. And I think at least some of the concerns are valid, which means that I must support BLM, even as some individuals in the movement say incorrect things or advocate for bad things. Overall, I think it’s very credible and very positive, and is by far the driving force for current changes occurring, including much more wide usage of body cameras. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/34 "2016-08-15T17:57:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which ones are you thinking of? There are a handful of the headline-grabbing cases that seem to have been unjustified, but in most of them, #BlackLivesMatter seizes on some dead shit-bag who was in the middle of doing criminal things when he was justifiably killed and tries to use him (or her) as a poster child. This latest Milwaukee incident is exactly that. [http://www.policemisconduct.net/2010-npmsrp-police-misconduct-statistical-report/](http://www.policemisconduct.net/2010-npmsrp-police-misconduct-statistical-report/) > [@](#): > > While the rate of police officers officially charged with murder is only 1.06% higher than the current general population murder rate, if excessive force complaints involving fatalities were prosecuted as murder the murder rate for law enforcement officers would exceed the general population murder rate by 472%. This is from 2010. Or you can just peruse [copblock.org](http://copblock.org). There is no shortage of instances of police brutality up to and including murder going unpunished. For every “dead shitbag criminal” killed (and since when has an automatic death sentence been the punishment for generic “crime” or “shitbaggery”?), you can find 10 innocent, unarmed people murdered for no reason but police “shitbaggery”. And the numbers are irrelevant. The incentives are set up for police to use excessive violence in collecting revenue via drug and traffic stops, and there is no real way to punish them when they investigate themselves and their buddy is the DA. Shit, even if I grant you the “fact” that cops don’t murder people, shouldn’t the system be changed so that if they DO end up murdering someone, they see justice? Or is that the goal, that they should be completely above the law? ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/35 "2016-08-15T18:05:28Z")
Not only were there witnesses to the Scott shooting, the physical evidence would have provided corroboration to the fact that the victim was shot in the back. BLM shoots themselves in the foot in a couple of ways. First, they protest uses of force that are justifiable. The Michael Brown case is one of many that they hang their hat on while ignoring the facts that were seen by both a grand jury & the DOJ. And now they’re protesting the shooting of a felon who was armed & likely aiming or raising his stolen gun towards police? They don’t want better police, they don’t want any police. The second area where they lose most of their credibility is that they say “black lives matter” when they virtually ignore the deaths of black citizens who are killed by black citizens. There’s not only been gangbangers & general criminals shot, but innocent adults & even children. But do we hear anything about these tragedies? No. And this is how the vast majority of black people end up being murdered, not by cops. So it’s difficult to gain credibility when operating in a very hypocritical manner. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/36 "2016-08-15T18:07:28Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > The BLM couldn’t care less about black lives. I love it when white folks know what’s better for black folks. It’s just objective facts you’re giving out, amirite? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Did they have a rally to end sexism or be queer-affirming? Because if so, I missed it. I also don’t regularly hear their spokespeople bringing these topics up in interviews. Appeal to ignorance much? Is this like the “Muslims don’t oppose terrorism because I’ve never noticed such a protest” argument, or what? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/37 "2016-08-15T18:07:49Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#): > > The second area where they lose most of their credibility is that they say “black lives matter” when they virtually ignore the deaths of black citizens who are killed by black citizens. There’s not only been gangbangers & general criminals shot, but innocent adults & even children. But do we hear anything about these tragedies? No. And this is how the vast majority of black people end up being murdered, not by cops. So it’s difficult to gain credibility when operating in a very hypocritical manner. We hear about these things all the time, and there are numerous black-led organizations that fight crime in black communities. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/38 "2016-08-15T18:16:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > … shouldn’t the system be changed so that if they DO end up murdering someone, they see justice? I agree with the goal (see my post #32), but rather strongly disagree with the methods that #BlackLivesMatter is using to try to achieve that goal, if you can call burning down businesses, beating up white people, and blocking traffic “trying to achieve that goal”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/39 "2016-08-15T18:21:40Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > For every “dead shitbag criminal” killed … you can find 10 innocent, unarmed people murdered for no reason but police “shitbaggery”. I really don’t believe that at all. You think that 91% of the people killed by police are “innocent” and “unarmed” and killed “for no reason”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/40 "2016-08-15T18:21:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I agree with the goal (see my post #32), but rather strongly disagree with the methods that #BlackLivesMatter is using to try to achieve that goal, if you can call burning down businesses, beating up white people, and blocking traffic “trying to achieve that goal”. But those aren’t the actions of the movement as a whole, but rather a few troublemakers (and such actions are a lot more likely to make headlines than peaceful protests, which are far more common). Most BLM supporters and activists oppose all kinds of violence, including this kind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=3)