# What's Wrong With Black Lives Matter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879 "2016-08-15T04:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/101 "2016-08-16T15:03:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Worse, but not “much” worse, actually. For instance, [the apartheid junta never incarcerated Blacks at the rate the US currently does.](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/dec/11/nicholas-kristof/kristof-us-imprisons-blacks-rates-higher-south-afr/) Blacks are incarcerated at such a high rate in the US, because blacks commit a grossly disproportionate amount of crime; especially of the violent sort. • Blacks have a disproportionately high absentee father rate. • Blacks have a disproportionately high gang rate. • Despite accounting for just 14% of the US population, blacks account for half of US homicides. More specifically, the majority of said homicides are committed by black males, falling in the 15-34 age; just 4% of the US population. What a coincidence! That just happens to be the demographic most incarcerated. Until we are willing to have an honest dialogue regarding the problems in the black community, nothing will change, no matter who you blame. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/102 "2016-08-16T15:07:55Z")
Black females aren’t being killed by cops or committing a grossly disproportionate amount of crime. They’re not being incarcerated at a high rate. Black females are going to school; they’re going to college. They’re entering the work force. They aren’t in gangs. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/103 "2016-08-16T15:40:08Z")
counterproductive is the attacks on reporters in Milwaukee The media is their best friend, attacking reporters is a good way to get the entire movement turned into a footnote in history. Kill a few reporters and the news will go from reporting “questionable use of force” to what a “great job” the police are doing “killing off the murderous thugs running rampant our cities” and a bunch of public opinion will swing with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/104 "2016-08-16T15:41:33Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Blacks are incarcerated at such a high rate in the US, because blacks commit a grossly disproportionate amount of crime; especially of the violent sort. > > • Blacks have a disproportionately high absentee father rate. > • Blacks have a disproportionately high gang rate. > • Despite accounting for just 14% of the US population, blacks account for half of US homicides. More specifically, the majority of said homicides are committed by black males, falling in the 15-34 age; just 4% of the US population. What a coincidence! That just happens to be the demographic most incarcerated. > Until we are willing to have an honest dialogue regarding the problems in the black community, nothing will change, no matter who you blame. We do have this “honest dialogue”, and things are changing in some small ways. Police encounters are more likely to be recorded, and very obvious bad shootings (like Slager/Scott and Sean Groubert), which in the past were likely to be swept under the rug by silent cops supporting their trigger-happy comrades, are more likely to be prosecuted. Community policing is gaining steam in many police forces. Crime has been going down for decades in general, including among young black males. Lots of progress to be made, but things have improved. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/105 "2016-08-16T15:49:49Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > counterproductive is the attacks on reporters in Milwaukee > > The media is their best friend, attacking reporters is a good way to get the entire movement turned into a footnote in history. > > Kill a few reporters and the news will go from reporting “questionable use of force” to what a “great job” the police are doing “killing off the murderous thugs running rampant our cities” and a bunch of public opinion will swing with it. [Here is one reporter that felt unsafe in Milwaukee and left](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMOWEAAth0) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/106 "2016-08-16T16:43:00Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Until we are willing to have an honest dialogue regarding the problems in the black community, nothing will change, no matter who you blame. Let me get this straight – our country is incapable of reducing racism in our society until the “black community” fixes other social programs? This is your argument? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/107 "2016-08-16T16:49:43Z")
> [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](#): > > Black females aren’t being killed by cops or committing a grossly disproportionate amount of crime. They’re not being incarcerated at a high rate. Black females are going to school; they’re going to college. They’re entering the work force. They aren’t in gangs. At school, at home, in the wider family and community, black females tend to grow up in emotionally supportive matriarchies with whom they have shared life experiences. It’s hugely complex but in the USA by the age of 6-7 most blacks boys have been lost. That obv. isn’t their fault, and it becomes a huge sink hole cost to society. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/108 "2016-08-16T19:35:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It’s hugely complex but in the USA by the age of 6-7 most blacks boys have been lost. That obv. isn’t their fault, and it becomes a huge sink hole cost to society. If this is the case, we dont have a policing problem, we have a huge black culture problem. Or does someone want to argue that 6-7 year olds are having serious negative encounters with police. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/109 "2016-08-16T19:42:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me get this straight – our country is incapable of reducing racism in our society until the “black community” fixes other social programs? This is your argument? To put another angle on it. If police stopped shooting people today and never shot another person, How many of the problems of the black community would be fixed? Very few. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/110 "2016-08-16T19:45:08Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It’s hugely complex but in the USA by the age of 6-7 most blacks boys have been lost. That obv. isn’t their fault, and it becomes a huge sink hole cost to society. I don’t think I can accept “most” in this claim. I agree it’s complex. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/111 "2016-08-16T19:52:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me get this straight – our country is incapable of reducing racism in our society until the “black community” fixes other social programs? This is your argument? I’m not **Giraffes Can’t Dance** , but no, you don’t have it straight. It doesn’t make much difference if we reduce racism in our society or not. Racism is not the cause of most social problems (I assume that is what you meant to say) in the “black community”. Until we recognize this, nothing will change. **Giraffes** can correct me if I am wrong. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/112 "2016-08-16T19:54:46Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t think I can accept “most” in this claim. I agree it’s complex. I would recommend not accepting _any_ of these statements without documentation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/113 "2016-08-16T20:00:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It doesn’t make much difference if we reduce racism in our society or not. Racism is not the cause of most social problems (I assume that is what you meant to say) in the “black community”. Until we recognize this, nothing will change. You won’t be surprised to read that I disagree (assuming “social problems” includes things like disparate poverty, unemployment, and criminality). When do you believe that this started to be true? Was racism/white supremacy the main cause of most social problems for black people through most of the 19th century? How about the 20th? If you believe that, at some point, racism and white supremacy were in fact the main cause of disparate social ills for black people in America, when did other factors take over as the main cause, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/114 "2016-08-16T20:00:17Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > To put another angle on it. > > If police stopped shooting people today and never shot another person, How many of the problems of the black community would be fixed? > > Very few. Let me say this very clearly: racism is not the cause of every problem in society, but racism is a problem in society. **GCD** said that “nothing will change” until the “black community” first fixes his list of complaints, with the implication that addressing racism has to wait until those problems are fixed first. Is that what you’re saying too? > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not **Giraffes Can’t Dance** , but no, you don’t have it straight. It doesn’t make much difference if we reduce racism in our society or not. Racism is not the cause of most social problems (I assume that is what you meant to say) in the “black community”. Until we recognize this, nothing will change. How about I give you another chance to rephrase whatever it is that you’re trying to say – because the whole “racism doesn’t matter” angle of this is frankly sickening me. And I’m hoping its just poor communications skills on your part, as opposed to something that you actually mean. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/115 "2016-08-16T20:07:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You won’t be surprised to read that I disagree (assuming “social problems” includes things like disparate poverty, unemployment, and criminality). When do you believe that this started to be true? Was racism/white supremacy the main cause of most social problems for black people through most of the 19th century? How about the 20th? If you believe that, at some point, racism and white supremacy were in fact the main cause of disparate social ills for black people in America, when did other factors take over as the main cause, in your opinion? To clarify – I don’t believe that racism is the main cause of everything bad in the black community, but rather that racism (personal, institutional, systemic, cultural) is the best explanation for the disparities in the bad things – the best explanation for why the black community tends to have higher rates of poverty, criminality, etc., than other communities. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/116 "2016-08-16T20:29:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How about I give you another chance to rephrase whatever it is that you’re trying to say – because the whole “racism doesn’t matter” angle of this is frankly sickening me. And I’m hoping its just poor communications skills on your part, as opposed to something that you actually mean. Racism is not the main cause of any of the problems of the black community. I don’t think I can make it any clearer. Sorry if it sickens you - it’s true nonetheless. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you believe that, at some point, racism and white supremacy were in fact the main cause of disparate social ills for black people in America, when did other factors take over as the main cause, in your opinion? Roughly, during the 60s. It’s not like we had no [warning](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/was-the-moynihan-report-right-sobering-findings-after-1965-study-is-revisited/2013/06/13/80eac980-d432-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html) that it would happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Giraffes\_Can\_t\_Dance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffes_Can_t_Dance)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/117 "2016-08-16T20:57:00Z")
White people are blackmailed with the label of a racist if they dare oppose the idea that institutional racism is somehow responsible for the numerous problems within the black community. It’s an effective tactic. But at some point, the growing pile of black children being killed has got to outweigh such blackmail. I live on the south side of Chicago. Yes, white people still live here. Not too far from me, a little boy named Tyshawn Lee, 9, was lured from the park he was so innocently playing in, into an alley, where he was murdered, execution style, by a gang member. This little boy was 9-years-old! 9!!! A gang member targeted him because Tyshawn’s father was also in a gang; retaliation of some sort. BLM is no where to be seen. Neither are any of the other groups. Outrage has been relegated to a few peeps; nothing substantive. Why? Because it would expose the truth. There is a problem in the black community. Black males, aged 14-35ish are disproportionately violent; are members of gangs disproportionately; are literally fighting for their lives in places like Chicago. This behavior is not inherent. The young man who killed Tyshawn, from birth, could have been a doctor as easily as he became a gang member. I believe that in my heart. But his culture swallowed him whole. In this culture, black women are fighters; they fight for their children on a daily basis. But one parent can not be two, especially when she has to work in order to support her family. The absence of the black father in many families is devastating. Perspective: The majority of black fathers are not of the absentee kind. The majority are thoroughly involved with their children. But the minority who are absentee fathers is loud enough, that it’s engulfing a culture. Nothing will change until we stop pandering. I am sick and tired of feeling sadness for the Tyshawn Lee’s of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/118 "2016-08-16T21:15:41Z")
[Chicagoans Actually DO Protest Violence In Their Communities All The Time](https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151201/downtown/chicagoans-actually-do-protest-violence-their-communities-all-time) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/119 "2016-08-16T21:17:53Z")
[Tyshawn Lee too.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-tyshawn-lee-the-march-turner-20151104-column.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879/120 "2016-08-16T22:39:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You won’t be surprised to read that I disagree (assuming “social problems” includes things like disparate poverty, unemployment, and criminality). When do you believe that this started to be true? Was racism/white supremacy the main cause of most social problems for black people through most of the 19th century? How about the 20th? If you believe that, at some point, racism and white supremacy were in fact the main cause of disparate social ills for black people in America, when did other factors take over as the main cause, in your opinion? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To clarify – I don’t believe that racism is the main cause of everything bad in the black community, but rather that racism (personal, institutional, systemic, cultural) is the best explanation for the disparities in the bad things – the best explanation for why the black community tends to have higher rates of poverty, criminality, etc., than other communities. I suppose this is a hijack of sorts: does it even matter if the social disparities are caused by institutionalised racism or dysfunctional cultural norms within black communities themselves? Whatever the cause the solution cannot be to bark hate from privileged positions at the supposed fecklessness and indecency of those who are victims (first) and perpetrators (second). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-black-lives-matter/762879.md?page=7)