# What's wrong with faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156 "2010-12-23T05:05:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/81 "2010-12-23T19:32:15Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > There is a 13 page, 619 post thread in Great Debates that consists mainly of the resident atheists adamantly insisting that their belief system is in fact, not a belief system. Can you give me the system of beliefs that stem from not believing in fairies? What beliefs does “not believing in fairies” necessarily exclude? Capitalism? Communism? Desirism? Error Theory? Divine Command? Materialism? Dualism? Humanism? Supernaturalism? DC? Marvel? What?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/82 "2010-12-23T19:32:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Turn the question around: What **good** is faith? As **Czarcasm** said, it depends what one means by faith. When I wake up in the morning, I have faith that the day will be productive. Otherwise, why bother getting out of bed? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/83 "2010-12-23T19:33:44Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Well, it makes me happy. It helps me calm myself when facing a crisis. I’ve had jobs where I had to make quick decisions with others life on the line. The exact beliefs that gave me the calm never came up when I was making these decisions but the calmness to not crumble under the crisis sure was. More specifically, it fought the natural fear of holding such responsibility. That’s one good that came to mind. That is a good thing, no doubt, but considering the topic under discussion, it’s pretty weak tea. I mean, you could get the exact same psychological benefit from faith in **any** spiritual belief-system, true or false or good or evil. For that matter, you could get the exact same psychological benefit just from being too stupid ever to second-guess yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/84 "2010-12-23T19:38:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > All those things are great. But someone who doesn’t understand that fiction is fiction might be in for problems. Plus, as for faith, if I had faith that Jersey Shore was going to become good, I’d be a nitwit. > I didn’t mean wasting time. Even some atheists go to church for the music. I own Beethoven’s Mass and the Magnificat by Bach. 1. They sure might be. 2. Never saw Jersey Shore 3. Watching a latin mass is a wonderful experience. Haven’t been to one in decades but I still think it was an awesome show. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where this came from, but if you want to feel good about yourself you should never start programming. It teaches humility, since even though you may have faith you did it right, the code tells you otherwise, sometimes in no uncertain terms and more dangerously through subtle indications of problems. Oh, in your post you appeared to be saying that anyone who professes a faith is all those things so I was acknowledging that I was ok with you holding that belief. I am a programmer though. It did teach me humility. It taught me that I don’t know everything and if I’m going to do something with definite results I need to stay firmly in the arena of definite things. Didn’t do a thing about beliefs neither provable nor meaningful except to remind me not to let those enter into my daily life. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/85 "2010-12-23T19:39:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s a psychological effect, not a physical one. The pills don’t _physically_ do anything, and they also don’t heal anything. They can temporarily use suggestion to alleviate pain or discomfort, but they don’t actually change or heal the physical causes. It’s not even the pills _per se_ which cause the placebo effect. It’s the suggestion from the pill giver. > > I guess this would be analogous to religious faith in that it can lead to a false beliefthat a problem has been solved when it hasn’t been (actually faith healing uses exactly the same psychological phenomenon). Isn’t alleviating pain and discomfort a positive gain? They’re sugar tablets, that’s what they’re supposed to do. Never said faith was uber powerful. I just said it could have positive gains to a persons brain. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/86 "2010-12-23T19:42:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is a good thing, no doubt, but considering the topic under discussion, it’s pretty weak tea. I mean, you could get the exact same psychological benefit from faith in **any** spiritual belief-system, true or false or good or evil. For that matter, you could get the exact same psychological benefit just from being too stupid ever to second-guess yourself. I believe that’s my point. It’s the belief that can be good, not a particular belief set. That is what I mean. Now, I also agree stupidity works too but there’s some obvious drawbacks to that one in the job I did. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/87 "2010-12-23T19:43:47Z")
What is wrong with stupidity if it makes you happier? ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/88 "2010-12-23T19:45:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The OP presents a rather cartoonish and hostile representation of atheists. In my experience, most atheists don’t care if other people have religious beliefs as long as they leave others alone and don’t try to codify their beliefs into law. I’m really not trying to paint with that broad a brush. I know you’re right about most atheists. I addressed this to those who weren’t that. > [@](#): > > As for “faith,” the main problem with it is that it’s completely irrational, which makes it a poor operating system for life. Sometimes irrational beliefs can be benign or harmless, but not always. It’s not a good idea to base your life on arbitrary, irrational beliefs not grounded in any evidence. Such beliefs are unreliable. If you’re driving a car in a strange city, is it better to have a GPS system that tells you where you’re going or is it better to just have “faith” that you will make all the right turns and end up at the right place? > > I don’t have any faith in faith. What about faith as a wallpaper not an OS? That’s more what I’m describing. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/89 "2010-12-23T19:46:34Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > What is wrong with stupidity if it makes you happier? I could have killed people if I did something stupid. It wouldn’t have made me happier honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/90 "2010-12-23T19:52:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Perhaps this just means that the faith of most people is weak? Many religions have things that you should do if you truly believed that most people don’t. Back when I believed in God I certainly didn’t have enough faith to demand that my parents go Kosher. I suspect that most people have a still, small voice in their heads crying out “that’s crazy” when their minister tells them what they should be doing if their faith was strong. I think I’m that little voice. I’ve never felt compelled to believe a certain way and I grew up in a non religious household. I was always in control of my beliefs and never was afraid to have those. Ok, when I was very little I had such a crisis and thought my way out if it. Hasn’t happened since then. I’ve always been able to spread the cheese of my beliefs over the cracker of reality without breaking the cracker. Heh, had to type it. It just sounds neat. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/91 "2010-12-23T19:54:12Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Ok, all faith is together as one thing and there is no difference from any faith to another? You’re being difficult on purpose. You’ve been talking about religious type faith that is blind in your OP and that’s what I’m continuing to talk about. You were asked what kind of faith you’re talking about and you said “Either kind of faith works for what I’m asking though”. Sorry, language doesn’t work that way. The same word can have different meanings. Religious type faith where something extraordinary and supernatural is believed without evidence is not the same as having faith your brother will pay you back the $5 he owes you because you know he’s a responsible person that’s not a dick. > [@](#): > > If I have faith that Johnny isn’t holding pocket kings I’m on the same road as a christian telling their kids their friends are going to Hell? See above. > [@](#): > > I don’t even believe in Hell so yeah, if my holding my beliefs are making you think that I’m the kind of guy who will do this to my kids then yeah, that answers my question as to why you’d be hostile and aggressive whenever I state my beliefs but it doesn’t really strike me as logical or fact based at all. It sounds more like making assumptions due to how your mind works not how the human mind works in general. Uh, no. You’re the one making assumptions. I didn’t say anything about the kind of guy you are. > [@](#): > > I never said that. I never said that there weren’t specifically dangerous or bad faiths. Unlike you, I don’t hold every faith exactly equal though. You were talking about religious type faith, so I was too. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that despite that, the vast majority of the humans in the world profess some faith and most of them, heck the vast majority of them function rationally enough for us to advance as a species so yeah, neither of us can prove a cite. It doesn’t matter if we can continue to advance as a species; that wasn’t the topic of your OP. It was whether or not religious type faith is harmful. My two links show how some having faith can bring harm to many others. > [@](#): > > Among other beliefs certainly. I’m also talking about people who believe that the universe itself is a higher entity for example and we’re all part of that. In other words, those who do not believe in a personal god at all. I’m talking about faith in the unprovable. No one is saying specific faiths are necessarily directly harmful. If you have faith that a teapot is orbiting Mars no one here will give a shit. > [@](#): > > You are trying to again fit me into a religious box but that’s not me. No, I didn’t. Read my post again. The “you” I used wasn’t directed at you. > [@](#): > > I dunno, what does the FSM stand for, I might get behind it if it is espousing what I believe in. I just quoted you saying “The Flying Spaghetti dude”; it stands for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you don’t know what initials stand for you can just Google them. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t matter as I’d be believing in the ideals, not the specific fiction but just like other forms of fiction having a FSM makes it easier for people with those beliefs to work with than trying to lay theory on them. That’s what makes fiction valuable. It gives you an outline of a thought you can work with. It does matter as the FSM’s ideals may not be something worth following the example of. Ever read the Bible and/or the Quran and read the history of what evils people have been carrying out for centuries because of the ideals of their god? > [@](#): > > I don’t see that though. I have no surviving close family. I am not part of any groups or affiliations. I don’t wear any beliefs on my shoulders nor is there any way that I can affect people on my job due to any beliefs. I haven’t even laid any of them out here in a discussion about beliefs. If you’re saying that I’m harming someone then it’s simply the fact that I exist that is doing it and I can’t help existing. Maybe the answer to the OP is because those with belief are viewed as abominations by the type of people who would aggressively scorn them? Please get a clue. I never said you or every person that has some sort of faith in some unnamed by you things are going to hurt yourself or others. If you believe there’s a teapot orbiting Mars and it’s your only faith based belief I doubt you’ll hurt everyone. You’re pretending atheists give a shit about that sort of thing and it just isn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/92 "2010-12-23T19:55:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m as much a physicalist as they come, but placebos and even meditation seems perfectly plausible to me. The brain is connected to the body, so you don’t have to buy into woo to admit that fooling the brain can improve your health. There was also a study showing that the same drug or placebo works better if the person taking it thinks it is expensive. > > And of course all these effects are measurable - no faith required at all. No faith is required of the person taking the placebo to gain any effect? I once read something about that but I don’t remember the details. If it’s true then it makes me wonder if the person has faith in little pills that is unshakable even when given little pills that he is told doesn’t work. That’s powerful. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/93 "2010-12-23T20:01:22Z")
[QUOTE=X-Ray Vision] As you can see in the responses in this thread, atheists in general wouldn’t give a damn about silly faith based beliefs if they never harmed anyone. But you’re either pretending or mistaken in believing there’s a harmless type of faith that exists in a vacuum. It doesn’t. That’s why we care. [/QUOTE] > [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I don’t see that though. I have no surviving close family. I am not part of any groups or affiliations. I don’t wear any beliefs on my shoulders nor is there any way that I can affect people on my job due to any beliefs. Good for you, but here (as in a few of your responses above) you’re talking specifically about **your** faith, whereas your OP asked about “faith”, and people are replying to you, as you might expect, about faith in general. An OP of “What’s wrong with MY faith?” would generate a very different sort of thread, perhaps you should clarify which you want this to be about. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/94 "2010-12-23T20:08:20Z")
> [@in\_hiding](#): > > The pills **are** providing a physical effect. They trick the brain into thought patterns that make healing more likely. It’s very real. And it works even if you know the truth about them: [Placebos work – even without deception](http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20101223/4831/placebos-work--even-without-deception.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/95 "2010-12-23T20:08:43Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No faith is required of the person taking the placebo to gain any effect? I once read something about that but I don’t remember the details. If it’s true then it makes me wonder if the person has faith in little pills that is unshakable even when given little pills that he is told doesn’t work. That’s powerful. No, you can measure the impact in terms of pain reduction, which placebos can do, and cure of the underlying problem, which they can’t. Sure you can fool yourself about stuff with faith. And it works fine so long as everything is internal. During one of the many rebellions in the Congo rebel troops were given amulets which were said to stop bullets. They had faith in these, and the amulets did a great job in aiding them to charge fearlessly at the enemy. But the stopping bullets part didn’t work nearly as well. I can just hear the discussion before the second charge. Rebel 1: Are you nuts, those amulets didn’t work worth shit. Look how many people died! Rebel 2: Of course they worked. Rebel 1: How can you say that? Rebel 2: You lived and I lived, right? The proves they work. Samuel got killed. That just proves his faith in the amulets was not great enough. All you have to do is believe, and you will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/96 "2010-12-23T20:16:48Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You’re being difficult on purpose. You’ve been talking about religious type faith that is blind in your OP and that’s what I’m continuing to talk about. Can you cite for me the religious faith involved in Goblins in your pants, unicorns and the FSM? I have been trying to very specifically move away from religious faith to more general faith. That may be wrong but it’s not being difficult on purpose. We just had the thread about the deghosting houses. I don’t see ghosts as a religious phenomenon and yet the very contention was immediately to stop people from vocally correcting this belief. I kinda was wondering if people had themselves so wrapped around a hatred of the actions of “religions” that they can’t let up even on lesser beliefs. > [@](#): > > You were asked what kind of faith you’re talking about and you said “Either kind of faith works for what I’m asking though”. Sorry, language doesn’t work that way. The same word can have different meanings. Religious type faith where something extraordinary and supernatural is believed without evidence is not the same as having faith your brother will pay you back the $5 he owes you because you know he’s a responsible person that’s not a dick. > > See above. Horrible example by me. I’ll agree these aren’t the same thing and I wasn’t really talking about the second kind of faith but don’t discount the fantastical from my question because those are what I meant, not just religion. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if we can continue to advance as a species; that wasn’t the topic of your OP. It was whether or not religious type faith is harmful. My two links show how some having faith can bring harm to many others. No, it wasn’t about whether religious faith is harmful. It assumed that not all of it was and I’m getting feedback that some believe any is harmful. Still, the topic wasn’t that, it was why do some people feel compelled to speak out about someone holding a nonharmful belief. If you don’t believe there is any, then that answers my question. > [@](#): > > No one is saying specific faiths are necessarily directly harmful. If you have faith that a teapot is orbiting Mars no one here will give a shit. No, but I’m pretty sure somewhere out there there is an orbiting whale and a flowerpot. 😃 > [@](#): > > I just quoted you saying “The Flying Spaghetti dude”; it stands for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you don’t know what initials stand for you can just Google them. Well, I don’t have any idea what “The Flying Spaghetti Monster” stands for either. Is it pro abortion? Is it anti orbiting blue whales? I haven’t a clue therefore I can’t tell you if a believe what it stands for much less if anyone else does. > [@](#): > > It does matter as the FSM’s ideals may not be something worth following the example of. Ever read the Bible and/or the Quran and read the history of what evils people have been carrying out for centuries because of the ideals of their god? That’s why I asked what it stands for but I think you realize the miscommunication now. > [@](#): > > Please get a clue. I never said you or every person that has some sort of faith in some unnamed by you things are going to hurt yourself or others. If you believe there’s a teapot orbiting Mars and it’s your only faith based belief I doubt you’ll hurt everyone. You’re pretending atheists give a shit about that sort of thing and it just isn’t so. And yet I know atheists in my life who do. Am I pretending they exist? I honestly don’t know what you’re getting at? I’ve said it’s not all atheists. I’ve said I’ve experienced the phenomenon firsthand and wondered what drove it. Others even had thought about it enough to have a name for it so I don’t think I"m just pretending. I just didn’t mean you like you didn’t mean me. Lets let it go at that because I don’t really want this to become personal. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/97 "2010-12-23T20:20:34Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > Good for you, but here (as in a few of your responses above) you’re talking specifically about **your** faith, whereas your OP asked about “faith”, and people are replying to you, as you might expect, about faith in general. An OP of “What’s wrong with MY faith?” would generate a very different sort of thread, perhaps you should clarify which you want this to be about. Good point but I’m only going into my faith because I have no other faith to go on. My premise is that all faith isn’t necessarily harmful and as mine I don’t feel is and it’s the one I know best, I’m answering from it. I have admitted that I know there are harmful faiths out there and fighting them makes sense. I was talking about examples that aren’t that. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/98 "2010-12-23T20:27:00Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > And it works even if you know the truth about them: > [Placebos work – even without deception](http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20101223/4831/placebos-work--even-without-deception.htm) Thanks for the link. It seems like a persons beliefs ( pills = medicine ) is stronger than their reality. Scary stuff. I’d certainly prefer the real meds but would I respond to placebos if I knew they were placebos? I so want to take that test as I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/99 "2010-12-23T20:29:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No, you can measure the impact in terms of pain reduction, which placebos can do, and cure of the underlying problem, which they can’t. > Sure you can fool yourself about stuff with faith. And it works fine so long as everything is internal. During one of the many rebellions in the Congo rebel troops were given amulets which were said to stop bullets. They had faith in these, and the amulets did a great job in aiding them to charge fearlessly at the enemy. But the stopping bullets part didn’t work nearly as well. > I can just hear the discussion before the second charge. > > Rebel 1: Are you nuts, those amulets didn’t work worth shit. Look how many people died! > Rebel 2: Of course they worked. > Rebel 1: How can you say that? > Rebel 2: You lived and I lived, right? The proves they work. Samuel got killed. That just proves his faith in the amulets was not great enough. All you have to do is believe, and you will be fine. Rebel 3: Hey, I got some extras you can use as a spare. Only used once. $10 each. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/100 "2010-12-23T20:33:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s _your_ thread, for Rao’s sake! Open up a dictionary, pick a definition, and get back to us. I understand you’re not itching for a semantic fight but that’s likely what this will turn into. I understand the need of a working definition so let me try one. I’ll use the definition here [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith), particularly 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156.md?page=6)