# What's wrong with faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156 "2010-12-23T05:05:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/141 "2010-12-24T03:44:51Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I realize I have the ability to lie and to assume positions and do actions that I don’t agree with. I’m assuming others do to so yeah, when I judge them there’s a whole lot of faith going on. But you’re basing your judgment on the evidence that’s come in so far, right? While ready to revise your judgment accordingly as evidence continues to come in? While remaining somewhat skeptical by keeping in mind that the person in question may well be dissimulating? Is that an accurate portrait of how you’re describing “faith” in this context? ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/142 "2010-12-24T03:45:28Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Are you suggesting that anything I might make up about an after-life should be taken seriously? I’d quite like a tub full of nubile girls covered in double cream. I don’t think anything anyone believes needs to be taken seriously by anyone else. I’d say it’s a good thing to be respectful of others especially when it doesn’t affect me. As for this belief, why not? Hey, if it gets you through your day, keeps you good to you and yours and keeps you a productive member of society and a good neighbor ( and you don’t try and inflict it on me ) knock yourself out. If it is the reason you didn’t do evil I have no problem with it and I wouldn’t see it as my duty to debunk you and screw up one thing in your life that’s working. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/143 "2010-12-24T03:47:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But you’re basing your judgment on the evidence that’s come in so far, right? While ready to revise your judgment accordingly as evidence continues to come in? While remaining somewhat skeptical by keeping in mind that the person in question may well be dissimulating? Is that an accurate portrait of how you’re describing “faith” in this context? In that context absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/144 "2010-12-24T03:52:55Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I don’t think anything anyone believes needs to be taken seriously by anyone else. I’d say it’s a good thing to be respectful of others especially when it doesn’t affect me. > > As for this belief, why not? Hey, if it gets you through your day, keeps you good to you and yours and keeps you a productive member of society and a good neighbor ( and you don’t try and inflict it on me ) knock yourself out. If it is the reason you didn’t do evil I have no problem with it and I wouldn’t see it as my duty to debunk you and screw up one thing in your life that’s working. I missed the edit window but I’d like to add this, most atheists wouldn’t have a problem with this either as I already believed and many have affirmed in this thread. I’m talking about the other guys. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/145 "2010-12-24T04:00:24Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I have no idea how to put together a gas combustion engine. I’d prefer to believe it’s the engine gremlins that make it work ( just an example but I am useless on cars ). I’m glad that there are those working for and dedicated for knowing this stuff and I rationally realize that there are no engine gremlins. It’s more fun to believe the magic to me. And what would happen when you take your car to someone calling themselves a gremlin doctor instead of to a mechanic? At best you’re merely out a lot of money, at worst, they ruin your car. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/146 "2010-12-24T04:11:38Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > The first paragraph is absurd. I don’t support any of those bad things or rally against the good ones. > > The second paragraph is spot on which to me is a good thing. If we’re only ending up worm meat anyway and we can have a free, non painful placebo that can help alleviate that seems a good thing. > > And yeah, it holds us back from learning? So what? Every human being doesn’t have to learn everything. Most really can’t. I have no idea how to put together a gas combustion engine. I’d prefer to believe it’s the engine gremlins that make it work ( just an example but I am useless on cars ). I’m glad that there are those working for and dedicated for knowing this stuff and I rationally realize that there are no engine gremlins. It’s more fun to believe the magic to me. I don’t think it makes me ignorant to have fun this way. I certainly wouldn’t start a religion over it. > > I think I need to put a signature line in every post saying I’m not defending harmful beliefs at all but non harmful ones. But it appears you’re saying, faith itself is so harmful that you can’t even let a little go unchecked because it’ll lead to sex abuse, torture, dogs and cat’s living in sin etc. > > And your side is the rational side. I’m glad the small minority of you guys have kept the world together with almost everyone working against the furthering of the species. Seriously, thanks for that. This post is a tissue of prevarication between the general and the particular, and between tendencies and definite consequences. When you unravel this for yourself (I can’t be arsed to deconstruct it all for you, frankly) you will be a long way towards understanding what is wrong with faith. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/147 "2010-12-24T04:14:56Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And what would happen when you take your car to someone calling themselves a gremlin doctor instead of to a mechanic? At best you’re merely out a lot of money, at worst, they ruin your car. Actually \*\*DP’s \*\*entire gremlin in engine analogy is inapt and silly because it only sounds reasonable because \*\*DP \*\*knows that his gremlin view is just a whimsy: he doesn’t believe it himself. This of course says nothing about people who actually make decisions concerning their engines based upon their faith that engines are operated by gremlins, which would be an accurate analogy to religious faith. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/148 "2010-12-24T04:16:27Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And what would happen when you take your car to someone calling themselves a gremlin doctor instead of to a mechanic? At best you’re merely out a lot of money, at worst, they ruin your car. What would happen is that I’d get me to a psychiatrist quick. Everybody knows that engine gremlins don’t respond to medicine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/149 "2010-12-24T04:16:37Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > In that context absolutely. Of course, in the post that started this thread, you described “faith” differently – _I say I have faith though I will freely admit there is no basis for it and scientifically my faith is incorrect. I can converse with people and discuss the irrationality of my beliefs_ – and now, in a different context, you’re using “faith” to mean pretty much the exact opposite of that: working to build an evidential basis while maintaining rational skepticism without being scientifically incorrect, and something something reason and something something experience. It’s a neat piece of equivocation, but just make sure to note that “what’s wrong with faith” pertains to the former description and context rather than the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/150 "2010-12-24T04:18:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This post is a tissue of prevarication between the general and the particular, and between tendencies and definite consequences. When you unravel this for yourself (I can’t be arsed to deconstruct it all for you, frankly) you will be a long way towards understanding what is wrong with faith. I understand. When I can take the pebble from your hand, it will be time for me to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/151 "2010-12-24T04:23:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Of course, in the post that started this thread, you described “faith” differently – _I say I have faith though I will freely admit there is no basis for it and scientifically my faith is incorrect. I can converse with people and discuss the irrationality of my beliefs_ – and now, in a different context, you’re using “faith” to mean pretty much the exact opposite of that: working to build an evidential basis while maintaining rational skepticism without being scientifically incorrect, and something something reason and something something experience. > > It’s a neat piece of equivocation, but just make sure to note that “what’s wrong with > faith” pertains to the former description and context rather than the latter. Well, I was educated that there were different types of faith and that the OP was discussing blind faith which is not in the context of the above example. There is a basis for the faith but there just happens to be no certainty else it wouldn’t be faith. I’m not sure what to say. I honestly believe that we had already clarified about different types of faiths, which kind I really meant and that I was talking about the former type of faith here not the latter. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/152 "2010-12-24T04:25:10Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I don’t see why that God would do that though. Whats the point to creating laws that it’s creations can explore, learn about, progress through if you’re just going to screw with him and break the laws of the universe when it suits him he’s inhabiting causing confusion? Somehow I think he could have the same effect working within the system. > > Maybe he’s lazy? Could be. Of course this suggests that for some there may be an [implicit] acknowledgment that this God may actually exist, but for them ----------\> insert complaint here\<--------------the existence of God is pointless; they have no use for him. But the question of such a god’s utility (or value…etc) and his existence are different threads. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/153 "2010-12-24T04:30:02Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Well, I was educated that there were different types of faith and that the OP was discussing blind faith which is not in the context of the above example. There is a basis for the faith but there just happens to be no certainty else it wouldn’t be faith. > > I’m not sure what to say. I honestly believe that we had already clarified about different types of faiths, which kind I really meant and that I was talking about the former type of faith here not the latter. Got it. So (a) just keep in mind that, when folks are addressing the OP question of _what’s wrong with faith,_ they’re referring to the former rather than the latter; and (b) when I reply that judging someone on the merits is okay _so long as you’re not going on faith,_ keep in mind that I’m likewise referring to the former rather than the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/154 "2010-12-24T04:32:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Could be. > > Of course this suggests that for some there may be an [implicit] acknowledgment that this God may actually exist, but for them ----------\> insert complaint here\<--------------the existence of God is pointless; they have no use for him. > > But the question of such a god’s utility (or value…etc) and his existence are different threads. True, and it would be an interesting discussion too I think. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/155 "2010-12-24T04:37:12Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I understand. When I can take the pebble from your hand, it will be time for me to leave. You seem like someone who may (and I say _may_) be looking for an answer instead of an argument. If so, then I’m trying to help. My experience however is that if I rip the logic of your post to shreds you will react by arguing back as a reflexive action. But if I just hint at the logical holes but require you to find them for yourself, you will be more accepting when you do. Is a particular personal datapoint an appropriate basis for forming a general conclusion? Does a lack of perfect correlation mean there is none? You seem too smart to believe either of these things. Go back and look at your post. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/156 "2010-12-24T04:42:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Got it. So (a) just keep in mind that, when folks are addressing the OP question of _what’s wrong with faith,_ they’re referring to the former rather than the latter; and (b) when I reply that judging someone on the merits is okay _so long as you’re not going on faith,_ keep in mind that I’m likewise referring to the former rather than the latter. I think we’re clear on this. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/157 "2010-12-24T04:56:07Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You seem like someone who may (and I say _may_) be looking for an answer instead of an argument. If so, then I’m trying to help. My experience however is that if I rip the logic of your post to shreds you will react by arguing back as a reflexive action. But if I just hint at the logical holes but require you to find them for yourself, you will be more accepting when you do. > > Is a particular personal datapoint an appropriate basis for forming a general conclusion? Does a lack of perfect correlation mean there is none? You seem too smart to believe either of these things. Go back and look at your post. No worries. It was just a tad bit too vague to be useful as presented that’s why I went the Kung Fu reply. I mean, logic presented like that honestly sounds like woo. Rereading your post I realize that I missed that you were referring to a particular post. That added to my confusion. Ok, with the gremlin analogy I see what I did there and you’re right I was conflating the personal with the general. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/158 "2010-12-24T05:07:42Z")
The gremlin analogy is the least of your problems. You need to review closely almost every part of the post I was commenting upon. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/159 "2010-12-24T05:19:50Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The gremlin analogy is the least of your problems. You need to review closely almost every part of the post I was commenting upon. Yep. It runs through the entire post. It is the question I’m asking though and also explains why it doesn’t feel that I’m getting the answers I want. I am talking intensely personal. I’m not really asking why “people” do this I want to know from someone who does, why they do it. I want to understand it from a level I’m more capable of personally understanding than general answers can do. I never asked that though yet I’ve been reading the replies through that lense and that’s not what they’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156/160 "2010-12-24T05:24:38Z")
I realize too that I’m using specific examples as rebuttals against a general principle so I didn’t miss that but I also realized I didn’t ask what I wanted to get answered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-faith/565156.md?page=9)