# What's wrong with Gore's gun proposal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2000, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527 "2000-10-19T14:05:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoeyBlades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@JoeyBlades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeyBlades)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/1 "2000-10-19T14:05:06Z")
I’ve heard a lot of discussion lately and the pro gun contingent around here all seem to think Al Gore’s gun licensing proposal is an infringement on their rights as gun owners. Frankly, I don’t get it. It seems like a pretty reasonable proposal and I would think people wanting to buy guns for legitimate purposes would be all for it. Now most of the flack was from people who thought it was gun registration, so I had to explain to them that it was not about registration at all. It’s just a photo licensing system, similar to driver’s licenses, that let’s you take care of the background check in advance. It seems to me that, once you have your license, it’s easier to buy guns whenever you want and not have to repeat the extensive background checks. However, many folks, in spite of knowing the difference between registration and licensing, felt it was a bad idea. Unfortunately, none of the people I talked to could articulate anything other than, “If NRA thinks it’s a bad idea, it must be a bad idea”. I’m not trying to start YAGD (Yet Another Gun Debate) I just want to know, what are the potential pitfalls and worries that pro gun folks have with Gore’s proposal? Why does the NRA think it’s a bad idea? ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/2 "2000-10-19T14:15:06Z")
A lot of the negative reaction to a proposal like that is when a person considers what it will do regarding the criminal use of guns. There are numerous and various gun laws on the books, yet criminals that shouldn’t have them still get them and use them. It is tough to see how laws like licensing will deter criminals or the criminally minded from using a gun when they are alreaddy breaking laws. I personally am all for the idea of enforcing the laws we have and seeing how that does the trick. No matter the rules, there will always be rule breakers. That holds true for the minor things in life and it will hold true for major law breaking also. A lot of people (including myself just so you are aware of my potential bias in this post) think Gore is looking to jump on the heartstrings of undecided female voters by proposing yet more rules and regulations that won’t be uniformly enforced and won’t really do anything to deter a criminal from breaking a law. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/3 "2000-10-19T14:20:15Z")
You’d _think_ they’d be all for it. But no… One advantage is that when criminals are caught with a gun and it’s not licensed, that _one more_ charge you can pin against them. It’s sort of like drug dealers not declaring ill-gotten money on their 1040’s. If the prosecuter can prove it, you can charge them with tax evasion as well as drug trafficing. _Slight hijack_ I once worked in the same building as NRA headquarters. I lucked out and never saw any protests. But they did have a gun museum (good tour on a lunch hour), a gun range in the basement, and a pretty decent cafe. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/4 "2000-10-19T14:51:53Z")
I agree with Mullinator, the existing laws are not being enforced as they could be. HCI makes a big deal about the success of the Brady Bill and all the folks that have had their purchases denied. Yet we don’t hear a corresponding gloat from Janet Reno about their prosecution for violating the law by trying to purchase a firearm when they are forbidden from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/5 "2000-10-19T14:56:32Z")
I think a lot of the objection comes from the fact that requiring lawful gun owners to have a license will do nothing to solve the problem, which is criminals getting illegal guns. It comes down to the all-gun-laws-only-affect-law-abiding-citizens reality, which is why I am against most gun laws. I do support mandatory safety testing as a requirement to get guns, but more important is the strict enforcement of laws preventing convicted felons / crazy people / children from acquiring guns in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/6 "2000-10-19T15:24:21Z")
The others have basically summed it up. Whatever you might think of the NRA, you have to admit that they’ve got one thing right: gun laws do not take guns away from ciminals, only people who are already law-abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/7 "2000-10-19T15:46:25Z")
WRONG! I’ve worked in the criminal justice system (admitedly briefly) and I can tell you that in this big city (Milwaukee) prosecuters simply do not stack on charges like that. For instance, a man wearing a bullet proof vest walks into a store, pulls a gun out of his pocket, points it at the clerk, demands money, takes the money, runs out and is captured by the police who discover he is drunk. He could be charged with a multitude of things including wearing body armor during the commission of a crime (5 years), carrying a concealed weapon (9 months),intoxicated use of a weapon (2 years), pointing a dangerous weapon (2 years), felon in possession of a weapon (5 years), and armed robbery(20 years). The d.a. will just charge the robbery and that’s it. It sounds dumb, but that’s all they’ll do. So another offense is just something else that won’t be charged. One big thing I object to is Gores proposal to ban “cheap unsafe handguns”. That is a bullshit statement! What exact guns is he talking about? All guns are unsafe if you find yourself staring down the business end of it! Does he mean the inexpensive guns made by Jennings or Davis Arms Co.? I’ve had some of those guns (As a side business I own a small gun store in Wisconsin) and I can tell you they do their intended purpose just fine. Does he mean to say a handgun is no good unless it cost so much that only the elite (and criminals) can afford it? I have a question I’d like to ask all candidates: If congress passed a total ban on civillian possession of any and all handguns, WOULD YOU SIGN IT!! Answer yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/8 "2000-10-19T15:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Diceman:_ > **gun laws do not take guns away from c[r]iminals** Then what _does_ take guns away from criminals? ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/9 "2000-10-19T15:54:45Z")
Prison or death takes guns away from criminals! Re the aids saying GW has allowed folks in Texas to carry guns in church et al. The law as signed allows these places to decide for themselves to allow permit holders to carry or not. I’m not really concerned if someone who has made the effort to get a carry permit is sitting in the pew behind me with a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/10 "2000-10-19T16:20:09Z")
At the risk of starting a debate, let me add my two cents… As others have pointed out, we would be spending millions of tax dollars creating a system that monitors (and inconveniences) _law-abiding gun owners_ while ignoring criminals. But there is another, deeper reason why I am opposed to it, and it’s this: _ **We do not need the government’s permission to buy, sell, carry, transport, or use any firearm.** _ And a permit system is just that - _permission_. Likewise, I do not need the government’s permission to practice religion, print a newspaper, own land, or peacefully assemble. The right to keep and bear arms is an inherent, inalienable right. It does not depend on government for its existence. You do _ **not** _ need the government’s permission to exercise this right. You must not forget: You are the _master_, the government is the _servant_. Another way to put it is that you are a _sovereign being_, and the government is a contractor you have hired to perform certain duties for you. One of these duties is to _protect_ your inalienable rights. Instead, our government has violated our contract and done just the opposite: _It is forcefully taking our rights away_. Guess Jefferson was right after all… ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/11 "2000-10-19T16:23:53Z")
I agree with the above statements but I do not think they address the specific question originally asked. I think the answer is that licensing would give the government a list of everyone with a gun so when guns are outlawed the government could just go around collecting guns from everyone on the list. It seems farfetched given the current political climate but that could change as it has in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/12 "2000-10-19T16:53:08Z")
[http://www.algore.com/guns/gun\_agenda2.html](http://www.algore.com/guns/gun_agenda2.html) > [@](#): > > **Require Photo Licensing for Handgun Purchases:** Al Gore will seek a nationally mandated, state-run system of photo licensing for all potential handgun purchasers. Under the Gore proposal, anyone who wants to buy a handgun would have to obtain a license proving they are eligible to own a handgun - after having passed a background check to prevent felons from buying guns and demonstrated knowledge of gun safety. The photo licensing would also keep guns away from children who are not old enough to own or possess a handgun. The above is directly from Al Gore’s own website. You may read his full gun control proposals at the link provided. The problem with this proposal is right there in the second line. You will not be able to purchase a handgun unless the federal government thinks you’re qualified. This proposal, were it passed, would likely be struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. It’s an obvious restriction of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] amendment. ---
**Author:** ![\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e47c2d/32.png) [@\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Tim)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/13 "2000-10-19T16:53:27Z")
AWB wrote: > [@](#): > > One advantage is that when criminals are caught with a gun and it’s not licensed, that one more charge you can pin against them. Setting aside the facts that existing gun laws aren’t enforced anyway, there is a big constitutional problem with gun registration of criminals. No, I’m not referring to the 2nd amendment, although in an ideal world it would also be a barrier to registration. The ‘problem’ is the _fifth_ amendment. Specifically, the right to avoid self-incrimination. This constitutional right means that if it is illegal for you to own a gun or even that particular gun (e.g. you are a felon, the particular gun itself is illegal in your state, etc. etc.) any law that would force you to admit that you own that gun is unconstitutional and cannot be enforced on you. Therefore, this and any other US gun registration scheme inherently only covers the persons for whom it is legal to own a gun. Unless it was legal for the criminal AWB referred to to own a gun, no additional charges could be brought for failure to register the gun. Any US gun registration scheme can only effect law-abiding gun owners. The proponents these measures often claim they are about criminals, but they simply cannot be enforced on anyone illegally owning a gun. This proposal CAN only effect law abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Aglarond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Aglarond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aglarond)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/14 "2000-10-19T16:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GaryM \* > \*\*Prison or death takes guns away from criminals! > Re the aids saying GW has allowed folks in Texas to carry guns in church et al. The law as signed allows these places to decide for themselves to allow permit holders to carry or not. I’m not really concerned if someone who has made the effort to get a carry permit is sitting in the pew behind me with a handgun. \*\* Texas checking in. Guns are not allowed in public buildings unless you are a cop. Even if you have a concealed carry liscense, you can’t do it. As for private institutions, any of them can put up signs that are given to them by the state they say you can’t bring a gun onto the facility. Usually these signs are placed in places that serve alcohol, but they can be put anywhere. As for deterents, gun crime is down here. It’s gone down since the concelaed carry law was passed, and even more so since the no tolerance law was passed. The no tolerance law simply states that if you commit a crime with a gun, you’ll automatically receive the longest sentence allowed by law. I wholeheartedly support this law. Registration/liscensing isn’t the way, in my opinion. It’s just one more thing those of us who obey the laws will have to do. I don’t believe it will work as a deterent at all. Just my $0.02. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/15 "2000-10-19T16:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*I think the answer is that licensing would give the government a list of everyone with a gun so when guns are outlawed the government could just go around collecting guns from everyone on the list. It seems farfetched given the current political climate but that could change as it has in other countries. \*\* It is not far-fetched; it has already happened. Earlier this decade, the California state government told all owners of “assault-style weapons” to “register” with the state government, with no strings attached. Being law-abiding folks, _they did it_. Then the government decided to ban many of these firearms. And guess how they knew who owned them? They simply referenced their handy-dandy list, and sent them letters in the mail. In fact, it is just the opposite of “far-fetched”; it is a virtual guarantee. Every country that has forced its citizens to register their firearms has used the data base for confiscation purposes, proving that registration is a prerequisite for confiscation. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/16 "2000-10-19T16:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aglarond \* > \*\*As for deterents, gun crime is down here. It’s gone down since the concelaed carry law was passed, and even more so since the no tolerance law was passed. \*\* Criminals prefer unarmed victims. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/17 "2000-10-19T17:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > We do not need the government’s permission to buy, sell, carry, transport, or use any firearm. And just where do you get this from? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/18 "2000-10-19T17:30:18Z")
I’d just like to pop in an remind everyone that this is GQ, and there are plenty of gun control threads already in GD. On the vague hope that we can possibly keep this thread here, can we try to keep this to the original, factual question, “What reasons does the NRA give for opposing Gore’s gun proposal?” Asking why a particular group says something is a bad idea is (barely) a factual question; asking whether something actually is a bad idea is not. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/19 "2000-10-19T17:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > **The problem with this proposal is right there in the second line. You will not be able to purchase a handgun unless the federal government thinks you’re qualified. This proposal, were it passed, would likely be struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. It’s an obvious restriction of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] amendment.** You know you and I think alike on this issue overall. I am not so confident, however, that the USSC would hear the case as a 2nd Amendment case, nor am I so sure that this current court would necessarily strike it down if it was. Scary, I know, but that’s my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527/20 "2000-10-19T17:47:03Z")
That’s very true **Anthracite** , both sides on the gun-control issue have shown a certain hesitancy to actually test the 2[sup]nd[/sup] amendment in the courts. But to help comply with **Chronos’s** request, I searched the NRA site to see what they had to say specifically on Gore’s licensing scheme. Sadly, I cannot provide a direct link, since the NRA chooses to use those evil frames, but I did find this: _NRA-ILA FAX ALERT_ - Vol. 7, No. 4 - 1/28/00 > [@](#): > > NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre aptly asked, “What’s it going to solve? The criminals could care less. They’re not going to stand in line; they won’t comply with it.” So, apparently the NRA considers the proposal an ineffectual tool with which to fight crime. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-gores-gun-proposal/37527.md?page=2)