I thought of another way to make my point: if the assertion is that the average public school high school graduate has been so poorly educated that they can not be expected to readily relearn what they learned in middle school, then what is the point of sending their own children to public school? Clearly the experience is pretty valueless, especially since the quality of education today seems to be lower than it was a generation ago.
Now, I don’t think public school is that valueless. I’m a big fan of it, and I think that lots of us do a pretty good job lots of the time. But I also like to think that my students could, with a little work and preparation time, pass on the things I’ve taught them. If they can’t, I’ve been wasting both my time and theirs.
ETA: Damn you dangermom–beat me to the same point!
My only experience with HS kids is the woman down the street-she has two daughters (both play on the school sports teams). These kids are incredibly polite and well-adjusted. they are much more mature than their school peers (their mother is a certified teacher).
honestly, when you realize how much time in your average public school is wasted on extraneous stuff, you probably get much better teaching at home. The main thing I notice-kids in the local public HS seem to revert to childish behavior, as if the carriculum is focussed on the lowest common denominator.
Frankly, these kids 9down the street0 are a plaesure to be around-I wish I could say that for the school kids.
I really don’t understand why its controversial to say that the average American will have average math skills. They also have an average IQ (even if IQ is not the best determination of intelligence, it is loosely correlated with certain abilities). That’s the definition of average. As I recall, teachers typically have significantly higher than average IQ’s and, for math and science, high school teachers have training in their subject. That immediately puts them well above the average American.
I think our high school math graduation requirements are still algebra I and geometry. Many of those kids will graduate with C’s or lower in algebra. Right? Unless there’s some kind of grade inflation. That means that the average American has not mastered the subject. This is not a reflection of the school system or teachers. In fact, I’m trying to defend teachers (unless it’s true that our subjects have gotten so watered down that anyone thinks they can teach them). I don’t see how it’s unreasonable to say that people who got C’s in high school math will not be able to properly teach their kids up to a certain level. Some of the ones who got C’s because they were goofing around could take remedial instruction but some don’t have the ability.
Is it really socially acceptable and elitist to say that not everyone can teach middle and high school algebra and geometry?
In Texas, at least, graduation required Alg I, Alg II, Geometry, and a fourth year of math: pre-cal is strongly encouraged: if a student takes Alg II their junior year, they MUST take pre-cal or AP Stats their senior year–they can’t go back and take the “practical math”.
I don’t think it’s elitist to say most people could teach these effectively to 150 kids in 50 minute chunks. That’s a hell of a thing. But I do think it’s elitist to say most people couldn’t master these, and having mastered these, pass them on to one other person that they know better than anyone else in the whole world given all the time in the world.
If an average person can’t master these things, how the hell is it fair to have them be high school graduation requirements?
And, even if that’s the case, why should the fact that some parents couldn’t master geometry well enough to teach it to a 14-year old be grounds to deny all parents the right to try to teach their 8 year how to multiply fractions? Yes, at some point outside support may be needed–and that point may be algebra for some and differential calculus for others. How is that an argument against homeschooling as an institution?
Midway through this thread, and I wanted to comment on this. Absolutely. As someone with a doctorate in education from (at the time) the number one ranked graduate program, I did not take one course in pedagogy. Now I am a former teacher and have training in pedagogy, but if someone at a top school in education is not required to take any coursework in teaching, I think we can surmise what that means in other disciplines.
Holding an advanced degree means the holder knows the content. It does not suggest that they can communicate that knowledge effectively. And not to bag on the PhD holders who are homeschooling - I’m sure some are excellent, but please, do not assume having letters after your name means you are qualified to teach.
Back to the topic. I am a product of public schools (except my graduate education), believe in them strongly, and wish some of the creative, energetic parents that homeschool would direct their capital and energy toward improving public schools (and yes, I understand bureaucracies create a problem). But I commend those parents who are doing a terrific job for their kids. It just seems to me to be skewed wildly to the very affluent and educated and the fundie crowd. I know a lot of the former and the kids do very well academically, but seem to struggle (not terribly, but they do) socially. And the parents admit that.
I wager that the 100% intellectual capital that homeschooled kids apply to their studies is used differently with kids in public schools. You’re spending 30% of your intellect trying to fit in, get along, make friends, etc. Personally I think that’s a good thing.
I went to a tough inner-city school with every societal scourge imaginable. Came out fine, didn’t get into crime or drugs, and I don’t consider myself exceptional - lots of kids like me did fine. But as always, YMMV, and it’s great to hear examples of really well taught kids in this thread.
Passing a subject with a C or a D is not mastering it. That’s my whole point. Maybe you disagree but I think kids, even home schooled kids, should be taught by someone who understands well (not gets by) the subject.
Also, my argument against homeschooling in this thread has always been restricted to upper level math and science. I have specified this in everyone one of my posts. I don’t care about elementary school and teaching fractions. Most parents could do it (but I’m sure there are some people who can’t). To be honest, I’m not even very worried about the lack of socialization. I’m talking about grade levels and subjects in which teachers in our public schools have degrees. No matter what criticisms people have of teachers, more of them have mastered their subject than the average American.
I also specified, repeatedly, that I don’t have a problem with home schooling as long as it is monitored and there are standards. That doesn’t appear to be the case for all states.
I know two families that homeschool their kids (2 x anecdotes does not, of course, = data). The first has three children and their father was in the Air Force for over 20 years. They didn’t like the idea of the disruption they would cause by changing their kids’ schools every two years or so, so the mother started homeschooling the oldest child, figuring that when she got out of her depth, she would start putting the kids in a regular school.
What she found was that she was able to stay ahead of the subjects all the way through. When their oldest was in her high school years, they worked it out with a group of other homeschooling parents to have people, often other parents who had a particular education, handle the more advanced sciences. She is now in a quite decent university, happy and well-adjusted as can be, and her brother and sister continue to be homeschooled.
They always had the kids in different sporting and other after-school activities at whatever local school, so they had plenty of chances to socialize with other kids and make friends. As they moved around the world, my friend was able to change the focus of their lessons to include whatever the area had to offer.
The other family is my brother’s. They only have one child, and weren’t impressed with public school. My sister-in-law is deeply impressive. She’s worked out a routine in which they work on workbooks some days and on others join up with any of a number of different groups with which they’ve built a connection to pursue a group acitivity. They’ve done different things with the National Zoo, the Smithsonian, Habitat for Humanity, a gemologist, and a Civil War expert, among many others. As part of their Civil War unit, they went to a battlefield, drew water from a well used by the real soldiers, and made hardtack. Hardtack! That’s going to stick with him for a lifetime. My nephew has made short stop-motion films with Lego mini-figs. He’s a bit shy but otherwise a completely happy and normal child. He needs to take certain tests every year to demonstrate that he isn’t falling behind his grade level, and every year he has scored at 100%.
In both cases, it’s the dedication and organization of the homeschooling parent that makes it all come together. I’m sure there are many people who homeschool poorly, but I haven’t encountered it myself.
What I am saying is that frustration with the local school does not qualify a parent to teach. Believing they can do better does not qualify them.
I think any parent should have the opportunity to demonstrate they can do as well as the local school. But they need to ante by showing how they can do that job - that they have the resources and availability. I’d also want reasonable testing by outside authority, not administered by the parent doing the homeschooling.
This idea that people won’t get into situations they aren’t equipped to handle is at best “optimistic”. And I haven’t seen anything in the way of explanation of how you handle the kids of parents that couldn’t get it done. I had two brothers that were held back in school and they never really caught back up.
Ever tried to catch up when you fall behind in a running race? It’s quite a bit harder than maintaining your pace with the pack. There is a certain amount of inertia that keeps you going in school. Take a break from school and it’s going to be that much harder to refresh those basic skills and then move forward with them.
The experience of sending kids to school is not useless. You’re hoping they’ll either move on to college, or be employed where those skills are used on a regular basis.
We live in an information age where there are vastly more distractions than a generation ago. Certainly there is a strong argument that for dedicated and equipped parents, homeschooling is a good option. But honestly, in most cases I think the parent actually sitting down with the student for a couple hours a night working through homework would capture the majority of the advantage of “ideal” homeschooling. And to preempt the question, I don’t think most parents do that.
Why should the burden of proof in this specific case of schooling be on the parents?
In most respects the default is to assume that parents are doing an adequate job of parenting until considerable evidence emerges otherwise. We don’t ask for evidence that parents know how to feed their children nutritious meals, or instill good values, or whatever. Why are the mediocre standards of public school education so uniquely important?
I used to work with a home-schooled (and schooler of his own kids). He was an engineer, sharp guy, but the gaps…oh my the gaps…
Some examples…
He was unaware of there being a first world war. WW2 was named because it was fought between 2 powers, the US and Germany. “But what about Japan, Russia, Britain, Italy…” “Well, they wanted to keep it simple for the media.”
There are only two atomic bombs in existence, owned by the US and Russia. They are each doomsday devices. “You do know that Britain, France, India, Pakistan, ex-Soviet states, Isreal…all have many bombs don’t you”…“They want them, sure, but the US and Russia won’t let them.”
So my opposition is that home schooling can become an educational death spiral of ignorance. If you pass on what you learned, gaps, ommissions and errors, it is inevitably going to get more and more inaccurate with each generation.
No, my idea is that knowing a subject does not qualify a person to teach it. I learn by reading. I’m bored silly by someone reading to me. Some people are great lecturers, but even with a fantastic lecturer, I’ll usually learn more by reading a mediocre textbook. Some people are the other way around, and need a lot of lecturing in order to absorb written information. Neither way is bad, but a teacher needs to know how to teach both types of people, and people who learn in other ways.
Teachers need a social skill set as well as a knowledge base, and they need excellent organizational skills too. A homeschool teacher without the social skills and the organizational skills is not going to be good for his/her students, no matter how much s/he knows about a particular subject.
This. I’ve seen the results of second or third generation homeschoolers, and the result can be frightening.
Finally, there have been studies that show that the people who are incompetent and ignorant quite frequently think that they are far more competent and knowledgable than they actually are: Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia . So we have a lot of incompetent, ignorant people who think that they know enough to teach kids whatever they need to know, when the teachers really don’t know what needs to be taught themselves.
Yes, there are lots of problems with public schools. In most cases, I think that the kids would be better served by going to public school, and having the parents give extra lessons if they think that the kids aren’t getting a proper education.
Homeschooling is one of those things that is done badly often and well rarely. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dopers aren’t overrepresented in the ‘well’ category, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t a lot of folks doing it badly out there.
My idea is that not everyone had the same education that their children may want or need- and I’m mostly talking high school level here. I could have taught my children algebra or biology or chemistry by being one chapter ahead because I already learned those subjects in high school and/or college. I wouldn’t be learning from the book, I would be refreshing my knowledge. On the other hand, the many people I graduated with who fulfilled their math requirements with some combination of consumer math and bookkeeping and their science requirement with earth science are not going to be able to teach their children algebra or biology or chemistry by being one chapter ahead in the book. They might as well just give the kid the book to learn from.
I work for a government agency which means we get a fair amount of training from people who know virtually nothing about the work we actually do. They are given lesson plans for each subject and teach from the plans. It works okay for certain subjects- for example how to complete the new electronic timesheets. It is a disaster whenever it involves anything more complex, because the trainer must constantly respond “I’ll get back to you” to any question that is not actually answered in the lesson plan.
You’re absolutely right- a lot of folks are doing public school badly out there. I’m sure that every Doper who homeschools is doing an excellent job , and I’m equally sure that nearly all of their children would do well in public schools.
I’m also sure that the population of public school parents who currently couldn’t care less whether their child gets enough sleep on a school night, studies or does homework, and thinks that a shopping trip is a valid reason for absence won’t suddenly change their ways and care about academic achievement if they decided to home school tomorrow. In fact, if that bunch decided to homeschool tomorrow, it would probably be so they can sleep late everyday.
This may be a bit of a hijack, but I have to say, I think the comparisons some people make between public schools and homeschooling based on the test results of a self- selected sample are unfair. It is currently impossible to compare the universe of homeschoolers to the universe of public schoolers - but it’s not impossible to compare that self-selected group of homeschoolers to a similar group of public schoolers. It’s fine to eliminate the people who claim they homeschool to keep CPS off their back ( and they do exist)- as long as you also eliminate the public schoolers who don’t show up two days out of every five. I don’t think the public schools will do terribly in that comparison.
Well, as a matter of fact parents probably don’t know how to feed their kids nutritious meals and we do try to educate them about that.
But you eat meals and presumably try to live morally each day. You don’t do algebra, think about the Krebs Cycle, interpret poetry or follow the expansion of the United States on a map on a daily basis. In fact rather than tuning in to the educational channel of choice, people raise the kids on the cartoon network and watch sitcoms instead of sitting with their kids during homework time.
Some parents go well beyond this. But the typical parents? They’re trying to knock out two incomes to raise a family. That doesn’t leave much room.
What do you mean burden of proof being on parents? Are you suggesting that teachers don’t have standards for their curriculum? Do they hide their lectures and grades from parents and their superiors? There’s no school boards? No legislators? No PTAs? Home schooling should have some transparency to ensure that students are exposed to minimal education requirements.
It looks like parents in some states have no oversight at all. You can’t compare parenting to formal education. I don’t agree that public schools have mediocre standards. They’re perfectly reasonable.
This study needs to be restated. It’s well-known that the more ignorant and incompetent people are about something, the more confident they are in themselves. Their ignorance makes them incapable of questioning themselves properly. Hence you have people thinking that they can teach all kinds of subjects when they really don’t have a clue. Some of them realize how hard it is once they start doing it but the very incompetent ones are incapable of realizing that they are screwing up. OTOH, more educated or competent people realize how difficult something is and tend to question their ability to do something properly.
