# What's wrong with physical punishment for criminals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018 "2004-06-12T21:19:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/1 "2004-06-12T21:19:24Z")
Since the amendment forbidding “cruel and unusual punishment” was added to the US constitution, physical punishment for criminals has dwindled until it is practically non-existant in America today and news stories about American citizens being caned get widespread (if rapidly dindling) coverage in the media. But is physical punishment more cruel than incarceration in a jail or prison? I was just thinking that if, should I be convicted for a crime, I was offered the choice between three years in prison and thirty lashes with a whip, I’d take the whip. The former would take away _three years_ of my life (and my freedom is very important to me), but the lashes would only cause physical pain that would go away in a much shorter time. Additionally, spreading the punishment over a length of time dilutes its effects on the punishee, while I would think that the relatively immediate effect of the whip would leave a deeper impression (no pun intended). One other benefit would be that there would be one less person having to be cared for by the government. Personally, I think by its nature all punishment is cruel; it’s the words “and unusual” that show what type of punishments can or can’t be inflicted. And by unusual, I would think that “unusually harsh” (i.e. not fitting the crime) would be a better interpretation than “different” or “not widely used”. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/2 "2004-06-12T23:31:11Z")
Why is it wrong? I will venture a few guesses: 1. It’s humiliating. Not that prison isn’t, but the kind of penalty you’re talking about would probably be inflicted in public as an example to everyone else. 2. It’s too subjective. How many lashes would be enough? How hard? If the person fainted or had a heart attack, would they have to finish it later? 3. It would vary too much in terms of its effectiveness. You say it would be enough to make an impression on you, but is that the case for everyone? Apparently it didn’t always work in the past, because there were certainly repeat offenders. 4. It’s not specific. Would this apply to any type of crime or just certain ones? What would be the criteria? 5. It could have the opposite effect of what was intended. It could very well cause fear, anger and resentment rather than penance and remorse. Just a few arguments off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/3 "2004-06-12T23:42:34Z")
I have to agree that there’s an astonishing blind spot about incarceration when it comes to “cruel and unusual”. I’d rather be beaten to the point of unconsciousness than incarcerated for a year. Would rather be killed (preferably in a not-deliberately-unpleasant fashion) than incarcerated for a substantial portion of my remaining life. I’ve never understood death-penalty opponents and other folks concerned about the treatment of convicted criminals who have so little to say about imprisonment, often overtly saying that imprisonment should be substituted for the other treatment which they regard as cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/4 "2004-06-13T00:21:03Z")
Probably because prisons were designed to get away from corporal punishment and the death sentence, and it has always stayed that way. I would support it as an alternative to incarceration, but i am wary of making corporal punishment mandatory in the penal justice system. Also corporal punishment is considered torture and the US is very anti-torture. Even though alot of people (myself included i think) would choose being beaten over incarcerated its still considered torture. i guess physical bruises are more ‘real’ than mental bruises. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/5 "2004-06-13T01:05:07Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Also corporal punishment is considered torture and the US is very anti-torture. Except for _bad_ people, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/6 "2004-06-13T01:14:54Z")
Incarceration serves the purpose of removing the person from society in general where she or he could be a further danger. It also provides – or should provide – a chance for rehabilitation and usefulness. I think that most opponents of the death penalty _are_ concerned about imprisonment. They want reasonable sentences, equal justice and decent conditions. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/7 "2004-06-13T01:21:54Z")
Skott, since you don’t think corporal punishment is so bad, let us flog you Mel Gibson style. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/8 "2004-06-13T01:36:53Z")
> [@Skott](#): > > I was just thinking that if, should I be convicted for a crime, I was offered the choice between three years in prison and thirty lashes with a whip, I’d take the whip. Oh, well then, if I´m offered the choice I´d take a slap on the wrist and be done with it… :rolleyes: Prison time is a _punishment_, if you trade it for something that is more palatable to you it kind of negates the punishing part, doesn´t it? That´s precisely why you´re (hypoteticaly) negated liberty, because freedom is a valuable possesion. and if you don´t want to loose it don´t commit crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/9 "2004-06-13T01:53:46Z")
Yeah, I gotta admit. The folks in this thread saying ‘I’d rather be whipped than be imprisoned’ sort of make the case for imprisonment. Given a choice of legal punishments I’d take the one you DON’T prefer as the one most likely to send the proper message. And I speak as one who’s been there. It ain’t fun. ---
**Author:** ![holdmytail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@holdmytail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holdmytail)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/10 "2004-06-13T02:22:33Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Yeah, I gotta admit. The folks in this thread saying ‘I’d rather be whipped than be imprisoned’ sort of make the case for imprisonment. > > Given a choice of legal punishments I’d take the one you DON’T prefer as the one most likely to send the proper message. > > And I speak as one who’s been there. It ain’t fun. How long were you there? What was it like? Did the bars freak you out? Did you have TV? Cable TV? What kind of food did they feed you? What were the guards like? The inmates? Was there a library? An exericize room? Religious services? Activities? Sorry if it’s too many questions. I’m just really curious. I don’t know anybody who’s been in jail (I’m 16). ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/11 "2004-06-13T02:35:55Z")
Imprisonment isn’t just for _punishing_ criminals, i.e. getting back at them, but also for keeping them away from society. A rapist who is whipped instead of imprisoned will be healed up in a few days, and then he’ll be out on the street again. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/12 "2004-06-13T02:50:32Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Why is it wrong? I will venture a few guesses: Unfortunately, all your arguments could be used against our current forms of punishment, like jail, for instance : [/quote] 1. It’s humiliating. Not that prison isn’t, but the kind of penalty you’re talking about would probably be inflicted in public as an example to everyone else. [/quote] Besides the fact that there’s no reason to assume that this penalty would be inflicted in public (inmates could be displayed in zoos, too, but we don’t do that), as you yourself noted prison too is humiliating. And it lasts much longer than some whipping. There’s no partiucular reason to believe that everybody would be more humiliated by the whiping than by a long deprivation of freedom, going along to various other humiliating restrictions placed upon them whil they’re jailed. > [@](#): > > 1. It’s too subjective. How many lashes would be enough? How hard? If the person fainted or had a heart attack, would they have to finish it later? How many years in jail? With a TV set or with hard labor? If a person do not react well psychologically in jail, should his sentence be reduced? > [@](#): > > 1. It would vary too much in terms of its effectiveness. You say it would be enough to make an impression on you, but is that the case for everyone? Apparently it didn’t always work in the past, because there were certainly repeat offenders. Does prison impress everyone? Seems to me that there are still a lot of repeat offenders. > [@](#): > > 1. It’s not specific. Would this apply to any type of crime or just certain ones? What would be the criteria? Jail isn’t either. What are the criteria to decide for what type of crime someone should be fined, or jailed or executed? [quotre] 5. It could have the opposite effect of what was intended. It could very well cause fear, anger and resentment rather than penance and remorse. [/quote] Sure. And prison do cause such feelings too. By the way, it’s not that I’m supporting physical punishment, just that I found that these arguments against it weren’t sound. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/13 "2004-06-13T03:26:35Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Imprisonment isn’t just for _punishing_ criminals, i.e. getting back at them, but also for keeping them away from society. And rehabilitating them, at least that´s what is tried. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/14 "2004-06-13T03:30:19Z")
My curiosity is aroused by the OP. This will be interested. However, you have to go back in history. “cruel and unusual punishment” is not “30 lashes with a whip” - it is things like tar and feathering (far more painful than it sounds, considering that the tar is boiling), the removal of body parts, being dragged behind a horse… Another thing to consider: We aren’t talking about major metropolises. We are talking about towns where everyone generally knows each other. Being locked in stocks has far more effect than standing still for a few days - you were socially DESTROYED, and had no chance in the future of that community. Not that prison does not have the same drawbacks (Les Miserables and difficulty of paroles and ex-felons to get jobs comes to mind), but it was minimized at the time. Third, we have standardization. Instead of the judge making up random crap that he decides met the crime, you have “prison” being a rather standard answer. Fourth, the fear was of a tyranical government using the cruel punishments against those who sought liberty. Fifth, humanitarian efforts were just beginning. Prison was and is considered more “humane” than beating the holy sh\*t out of someone. Liken it to putting a child in time out to smacking him with a belt. The idea was (and is) to strive for a better definition of humanity - to rise about being a criminal yourself in the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/15 "2004-06-13T03:55:14Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Why is it wrong? I will venture a few guesses: > > 1. It’s humiliating. Not that prison isn’t, but the kind of penalty you’re talking about would probably be inflicted in public as an example to everyone else. > > 2. It’s too subjective. How many lashes would be enough? How hard? If the person fainted or had a heart attack, would they have to finish it later? > > 3. It would vary too much in terms of its effectiveness. You say it would be enough to make an impression on you, but is that the case for everyone? Apparently it didn’t always work in the past, because there were certainly repeat offenders. > > _snip_ > > 1. It could have the opposite effect of what was intended. It could very well cause fear, anger and resentment rather than penance and remorse. > > Just a few arguments off the top of my head. Couldn’t all those things be said about incareration? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/16 "2004-06-13T04:01:55Z")
True, my opening arguments weren’t very thorough. **Zagadka** and **Wesley Clark** articulated it better. Beating someone and letting them go just wouldn’t do in most cases. You’d want them locked away for serious crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/17 "2004-06-13T04:13:23Z")
Singapore still uses caning as punishment (Death Penalty to drug trafficers also - or so the statement on the entry card states). Has that been proven effective as a deterent? Even though Singapore’s culture is very different from a Western culture, surely there must be some evidence to indicate the efficacy of such punishment and how it might apply to a different society? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/18 "2004-06-13T04:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=Fritzsurely there must be some evidence to indicate the efficacy of such punishment[/QUOTE] The motivation behind incarceration instead of physical punishment is not one of effectiveness or efficiency; it is one of humanitarianism. The goal isn’t to better deter criminals, nor is it to punish them better - it is to protect their rights as human beings, and ensure that every person is treated fairly by the government. That was the mindset of the framers of the Constitution, not preventing crime. Whether that still applies today is questionable. Certainly, you are correct, it has molded a society where torture is unacceptable instead of standard. Whether that is good or bad, whether you think criminals are getting their just deserts, is up to debate, however. It isn’t wrong from an effectiveness point of view - getting your hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread, I’m sure, is very effective in stopping theft of loaves of bread. What is “wrong” with it is that it is cruel and unusual, it takes rights from people, it allows governments to use harsh punishments on anyone, and it is simply MEAN - I think the fact that society today looks down on torture as “barbaric” would please the founding fathers greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/19 "2004-06-13T05:07:29Z")
Punishment, be it incarceration, caning, or dismemberment must have the core goal of _deterrence_ - i.e., “this transgression of our society’s rules is unacceptable. You must not engage in these transgressions or our society will punish you.” My question is not whether the punishment of caning is cruel and unusual (certainly by Western standards it is) - is it effective for _deterrence_? I think the question that I am getting to is this: Is there any data to suggest that physical punishment, such as caning (or even dismemberment) has any effect on deterrence of the offender to repeat the crime (recidivism)? And is there any evidence to suggest that the more severe physical punishments, such as caning, is effective in preventing the crime in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018/20 "2004-06-13T05:18:42Z")
> [@Fritz](#): > > My question is not whether the punishment of caning is cruel and unusual (certainly by Western standards it is) - is it effective for _deterrence_? Maybe you should start a thread on that. > [@](#): > > I think the question that I am getting to is this: Is there any data to suggest that physical punishment, such as caning (or even dismemberment) has any effect on deterrence of the offender to repeat the crime (recidivism)? And is there any evidence to suggest that the more severe physical punishments, such as caning, is effective in preventing the crime in the first place? To continue this mini-threadjack, I believe I recall that crime rates in Saudi Arabia were much lower, but I won’t bother looking up a cite for it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-physical-punishment-for-criminals/250018.md?page=2)