Jois:
Mixing and matching elements from different subcultures can only go so far. New ideas must emerge over time, whether or not they are precipitated by a calamity. I don’t understand how it’s wrong to take an original idea, or an idea from a different culture entirely, and make and earnest effort to make it work–even if there isn’t some huge plague of locusts to necessitate it. Certainly I do not understand why it should be illegal to live in a different way just because it is different.
Hope I’m not too late for the party!
I think I’m going to have to make several posts, because this is turning into a book rather than just a post. :eek:
To start, I will reiterate what friedo pointed out: polygamy means any form of plural marriage. That is how I will use the word. If I wish to discuss a particular form of polygamy, I will use the correct terms polygyny or polyandry. And the majority of polygamists (or polyamorists, which includes polygamy) in the US are NOT repeat NOT Mormon. Just wanted to be clear on that before I started.
In terms of the OP, spoke-, why is anything that doesn’t constitute harm to others considered immoral or made illegal in a society? There are many “crimes” in our culture (and any other culture, for that matter) that consist of nothing more than crossing a societal taboo.
Public nudity, which harms no one, will get you thrown in jail. Some people point to Biblical justification for this, but for the most part, it is simply custom. Since one can prove just about anything is immoral and wrong (or is moral and right for that matter) through skillful quoting of the Bible, in general, these things generally boil down to nothing more than prevailing mores and customs.
I’m not going to attempt to discuss the Biblical variants on marriage, as I’m no Biblical scholar and there are plenty of folks here better qualified to do so. I will note that, as far as Christianity goes, Paul thought that true Christians should not marry at all. Marriage was only for those too weak to manage celibacy. But if you just had to, then you certainly shouldn’t do it more than once. My personal opinion of Paul and his thoughts on sex and marriage are, shall we say, less than complimentary so I’ll leave them out of this discussion.
There are some historical scholars on this board who can probably give you the dirt on monogamy / polygamy and Christianity. I don’t have the full details at hand, but I know that the idea of monogamy as the only allowed form of marriage was not originally part of Christian dogma. I also know of at least one Christian group that promotes polyamory as Biblically-based. (I’m not talking about the Mormons here; IIRC, their commandment of polygyny was based on the Book of Mormon rather than the Bible.)
So, why is polygamy considered immoral and outlawed? Because our society says so. Of course, since most everyone in our society is brought up to truly believe that polygamy is wrong, they will and do come up with all sorts of explanations as to why it *should be considered wrong, make up “reasons” and/or “proof” that it doesn’t work, that it’s “unnatural”, so on and so forth. For examples, simply read previous posts in this thread.
None of them amount to much of anything more than “it’s wrong because we believe it shouldn’t happen”.
If this sounds a bit testy, well, you’re right. This isn’t the first discussion of polygamy I’ve had on these boards and I’ve grown a bit tired of the bs and the bigotry. On the other hand, I really appreciate that several of the people posting here are evidently much more open to the idea than most. Thanks RAH! 
IMHO, this link explains a lot about why people are so up in arms about polygamy:
http://www.polygamy.org
Tapestry of Polygamy-for Polygamy survivors.
Just want to pay Devil’s Advocate here:
I’ve live in Salt Lake Cty for four years, have had many Mormon friends, even been Best Man at an LDS wedding, so you know I’m not anti-Mormon, but…
1.) If you read the works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner nd ther critics, they have evidence to disprove the claim that there as a shortage of men in early Salt Lake City (or other early Mormon communities), and so polygamy was NOT a response to the social situaion.
2.) Polygamy is actually condemned at one point in the Book of Mormon.Cal-you wouldn’t have gotten your name from “This Island Earth”, would you?
Gee Wiskers! Did I say that it was wrong to take an idea from another culture and make an earnest effort to make it work? Heck no, go for it! But without the support of the community in which you live and the background to deal with poly marriage, I don’t think your chances are very good.
Maybe it shouldn’t be illegal to live in a different way from those around you. What I’ve seen on TV (on a program like Investigative Reports) about poly-marriages wasn’t inspirational.
OK, back to the board. I dunno, my family started talking about me needing a shower (spent the day doing yardwork) before we went to dinner at some friends’ house. Then they made me actually go out and see our friends and eat dinner. Don’t these people understand priorities?!? 
Now to address some of the previous posters.
Those are some quaint theories, Jeff_42. I suggest you explain them to all the women you meet. I’m sure that will greatly improve your personal dating statistics and chances of ‘winning the jackpot’ someday. [/sarcasm]
mipsman speculated that monogamous pair-bonding originated with the dawn of mankind. Problem is, polygamy in various forms has been a widespread practice throughout human history. It is still practiced in cultures around the world. Most primitive cultures practice some form of polygamy and all cultures (until recently) were based on some version of the extended family. The concept of the ‘nuclear family’ consisting of two parents and their children is extremely new in human culture and is certainly NOT the norm overall. In fact, it’s not even that ‘normal’ in the US anymore, what with the divorce and remarriage rates.
Fact of the matter is, large numbers of people in Western culture do NOT practice monogamy. The latest numbers I’ve heard for the US had over 50% of the men surveyed and almost 30% of the women who admitted to infidelity. Long-time extra-marital lovers have been a tradition (and generally accepted as fairly normal) in Western society for hundreds of years. While cheating isn’t the same thing as polygamy, it sure bashes holes in the idea that humans are ‘naturally’ monogamous.
Phobos, how about, because they want to? Or, outside of Western society, because their cultural and societal mores say that polygamy is right and good?
AerynSun, I don’t know what you’ve seen, but please consider that you’re not going to see the average polygamous family on TV or in the news. They’re busy hiding from the bigots that will destroy them if given a chance. If you don’t believe me, read up on the Divilbiss case in Tennessee last year.
What you will see are the kids that are looking for attention, the young marriages that don’t have as much (i.e., kids, careers, etc.) to lose from exposure, and so on. Please don’t hold it against us that you only see the extreme edges of the group. No polyamorists that I know of are in it for a “dorm atmosphere” and IME, poly requires a much higher level of maturity, communication and accomodation than does monogamy. (Not saying that polys are better people or necessarily have better relationships, just that we have to work at it harder.) Many poly r’ships today are polyandrous and many more are not full-time, everyone-live-together situations.
LaurAnge, I’ve got some serious issues with your ideas. I’m a feminist too, and one of my main problems with monogamy is that, in my opinion and experience, it is MONOGAMY that fosters the idea of “ownership” of the spouse. I don’t know of any polys that follow their spouses around to see with whom they’re talking at any given point of the day. But I have seen monogamously married folks doing just that, more than once. Now that’s creepy. I am in a three-way marriage and it is most certainly a three-way partnership, one that requires a lot of committment and work from all of us.
pluto is correct that polyandry is much less common than polygyny. My personal experience leads me to believe that this is partially based on gender differences stemming from our distant ancestors. As mipsman mentioned, most primates are polygynous. On the other hand, humans are so far removed from those roots that societal influences are much more important, and I agree that much of the predominance of polygyny is due to patriarchal societies. The idea of knowing who fathered a specific child is also a product of and driving force in creating patriarchal societies, so to me those ideas go hand-in-hand. I’d have to disagree with the idea that it’s a difference in sexual drive, however.
Arjuna34, BWAAHAHAHAHAH!! Don’t I wish! But seriously, how does outlawing polygamy prevent the collection of power into certain families? Rockefellers, Kennedys and Morgans come to mind, not to mention the Bushes.
labdude, thank you for interjecting some reality into the discussion.
Major Feelgud, I have indeed been married before. I was married for almost ten years. Despite the fact that I always knew that monogamy was not for me. When I formed a new relationship, it was poly. 'Tis true that it complicates things a bit - I had to laugh at your examples of TV and places to eat. Too familiar! But it still works and quite well.
I’m not claiming that poly r’ships are for everyone. A lot of people just aren’t interested. Many more would probably lose interest when they realized it’s not all fun and games, just as happens to many monogamous marriages. But why shouldn’t I be able to live my life with the people I love, just because it’s not your cup of tea? I’m not demanding that you go out and marry another person, why do you care if I do?
As I stated before, the fringe Mormons that practice polygamy are a small percentage of the people in multiple-adult relationships in this country. I believe the Mormons have been estimated at around 20,000 people. There aren’t any good numbers for polys (since we don’t generally volunteer to be counted as such due to the unpleasant ramifications), but last estimates I remember were somewhere around 300,000.
I’m not interested in arguing about the Mormons, because none of the polyamorous people I know of are Mormon.
That’s probably long enough for one post. Back soon!
OldBroad, Hi! Nice to meet you! You made me laugh, because I used to love my time alone when my spouse worked odd shifts. We saw each other one day each weekend and usually two or three nights a week. It was great! But those days are over and now I almost NEVER get any time alone!
There are poly r’ships that work much as you describe and the people in those relationships seem to like them, in part for the reasons that you mentioned.
Revedge, hiya. I think you’re most definitely correct. Polyamory has taken many forms that most people have never heard of. Polys are busy trying to invent names to describe the concatenations they’re building. My favorite is TOCOTOX, which is short for Too Complicated To Explain.
Podkayne! Hello! I really have to get a new copy for a girl-child friend of mine. I’m trying to get her started on science fiction. And exposure to Heinlein couldn’t hurt, eh? 
Have you stopped by the ‘Ask the Closeted Bisexual Guy’ thread? There’s some more polys that hang out there.
Absolutely! I oppose many of the practices that are attributed to the polygynous Mormons. I have no personal evidence or knowledge of these people, but child abuse and spousal abuse should not be permitted in ANY circumstance. Biggest problem is, those fringe elements of Mormonism are the most well-known polygamists and, unfortunately, their bad behavior tars & feathers the rest of us with the same broad brush.
As far as I know, it’s true that those Mormons are quite patriarchal and the husband rules with near-absolute power. But that’s no different than the beliefs and practices of many conservative or fundamentalist Christian households. Southern Baptists, Assembly of God, Church of Christ - those are common around here. I’ve heard more than once of an abused woman going back to her husband because her family refused to support her efforts to flee. After all, if she was submitting properly to her husband, she wouldn’t have been beaten. :mad:
JoltSucker, I like the way you think. I do have to disagree with your first two points. I believe that the ‘women want sex less’ and ‘men need variety’ concepts are culturally driven rather than human nature. After all, only a couple of hundred years ago, women were thought to be the lewd, wanton, rapacious gender in Western culture. Higher libidos and wandering eyes occur in both sexes. On the other hand, poly can be a solution to those problems.
Your next two ideas are right on the money, however. In most societies, including the USA until the past few decades, couples do not attempt to rear children on their own. Childrearing is hard work and is made much more difficult by our current system where only two people are expected to meet all of the demands. Poly families have just the types of options you outlined, allowing all the adults to have more free time, whether it’s spent building relationships or on personal pursuits. This includes the option to have one (or more) parent stay home to care for the children, because the income isn’t so desperately needed. Not to mention the fact that the overhead is less (one home to purchase and maintain, one set of utility bills, etc.) and the time required of each individual for chores is less.
I think you misunderstood Revedge’s explanation, though. The marriage arrangement she described from Heinlein was not couples-based. It was called a ‘line-marriage’ and new spouses were added one at a time, married to the entire group. The family in the book maintained a gender balance overall, but not at all times.
As far as your questions, I can’t answer those because everyone works out their own solutions. One of the advantages of being a non-traditional type is that there are fewer rules to break.
For instance, how do two people of same sex interact? (I can’t say just ‘wives’ because I’ve seen r’ships with multiple husbands too.) Depends on the people. If they’re bisexual, then chances are good they will be involved sexually. If not, then they won’t.
Do they compete and fight? Does their r’ship undermine the r’ship with the other members of the r’ship? (Again, you’re assuming only three parties, but quite a few marriages are with more than three.) Again, it depends. Generally those answers are ‘no’ or become ‘no’ as the r’ships develop. If the answers are ‘yes’ and remain ‘yes’, I’d guess that the r’ship probably wouldn’t last in the long run.
Where does everyone sleep? Where ever works best for them. Some build a big bed (I’ve heard of entire rooms turned into beds), some sleep alone (because they sleep better that way). Where, when and how those people have sex is an entirely different question. And again, the answer is ‘the way that works best for the people involved’.
How do they add new partners? Well, some people do turn poly as the result of an affair, but I’ve never heard it recommended. Generally the trust destroyed by the initial affair will cause serious problems in any future r’ships until those issues are resolved between the original couple. Most poly r’ships are developed the same way most mono r’ships are. People meet, develop friendships, fall in love, decide to get serious. Just when to tell a potential new love about your poly-ness is of continual interest on the poly lists.
Apparently, most kids in poly families don’t have much problem with their situation. Many of them have grown up in a multi-adult household, so they don’t think it’s terribly strange. I’d imagine they might get some harassment at school if the other kids found out, depending on the neighborhood. How do they deal with a new member of the household? Probably pretty similar to the situation faced by kids whose parents remarry, don’t ya think? Except, of course, if they’re already used to the idea, it’s probably less stressful.
I’ve never heard of abusive poly r’ships, outside of the Mormon context. Don’t say they can’t happen, I just don’t know of any. My opinion would be that abuse is less likely, because the people that get involved in poly r’ships tend to be pretty strong, independent individuals. Have to be to buck society this seriously.
As to the emotional situations, I can answer a couple of those. Yes, you can actually love more than one spouse. I do, my partners do, so do many, many other people. No, polyamory is not based on convenience and lust. It is, if anything, less convenient. Not to mention more work. And while lust is fine and good, it won’t make an enduring relationship.
As far as “who’s the favorite”, well, if you’re going to play that game, then poly probably won’t work for you. Yes, poly people sometimes get jealous, or feel left out, or neglected. Sometimes a new love takes up more time/energy/emotion than is comfortable for the other partner(s). You learn to deal with those things. You learn to discuss your feelings and your needs honestly with your partners, and they learn to listen and help negotiate a solution that works for everyone. If you don’t, you’re not going to be happy and your relationships aren’t going to last.
Gorsh, it’s late. I’m supposed to be up in the morning. And this has gotten really, really long. Well, if anyone’s made it this far, thanks for listening! I’ll check back tomorrow.
I have heard that some females in ape and monkey species have sex with all the males in the group in order to protect her/their offspring; the males being less likely to kill a baby that might belong to them (would monkeys actually be able to cognitively relate having sex with having offspring? In Clan of the Cave . . . series of books, the early people did not relate the sex act with bearing children).
I also had heard a theory in a behavior genetics course that males (of any species) that impregnated many females had a higher chance of their genes being continued in the gene pool than those who impregnated relatively few females.
Females, on the other hand, that invested time and energy into caring for their offspring (as opposed to mating with lots of different males? I can’t remember all the particulars) were more likely to have their genes continue in the gene pool.
I think that same class was where I learned that a pregnant rat that mates with a different male will often spontaneously abort the offspring of the previous male.
All stuff from a long time ago and I loaned the textbook to someone. Anyone else heard any of this stuff?
Guin:
Yup!
I see no problem in Polygamy/Polyandry as long as it’s not a situation where it would be better if there was just two people in the relationship. Relationships involving two people require a lot of communtication, and if you add another person, the amount of communication for the relationship to run smoothly doubles. It’s a lot of work to keep up a relationship like that, and isn’t suited for a great many people. Add to the situation the possiblities of jealousy and competition, and you could have a huge mess on your hands to deal with.
I’m personally opposed to polygamy for moral reasons, and for many of the previously stated practical reasons.
However, when doing a news story on a group of polygamous Mormons in Canada, I once interviewed the “head wife” of one of the commune’s top guys a long time ago.
She said, as best I can remember:
1)The wives plan out when they will sleep with the husband.
2) She and her “sister wives” tended to specialize in sharing parenting tasks. Say three or four wives would cook for everybody, two or three of the scholarly wives would help with homework, the athletically inclined wives would organize the sports… With the pluarlity of wives, It’s like having one “Super Mom” for all the kids who is great at everything…
I did realize that she was a skilled apologist and probably didn’t mention everything, but these were some of the rationales she had.