Apparently, it’s a moot point if it’s expired, because the Chief Rabbi of Israel, in 1950, also forbade it, and his rulings are authoritative. <note to self, do the research first>.
back to the OP. I think there is a more critical part of social order which would encourage a modern society against allowing polygamy.
(The rest of this is part remembered from an Anthro prof’s theories, and part WAG). If Polygamy is common, then powerful,rich, old men would have more thab one wife on average. There would then be many young, lower income men who would realize that their chances for getting married, and having families were pretty much nonexistant. These guys would be pretty pissed off(as well as sexually frustrated) and have nothing to lose from chosing to become criminals, rapists, and general outlaws. One of the major reasons for Polygamy in the first place was that it was so much more common for men to die in war, that there was an excess of woman to men, so in order to keep that society healthy, it just became natural for a man who had the resources to, to take care of more than one wife.
Kelly,
If polygamy includes polygyny, then it cannot be false to be technically also known as. Polygamy rarely in modern usage refers to one woman marrying more than one man, but polyandry refers to this. Polygyny is rarely used, and I was trying to say that polygamy is technically referred to as polygyny, but you want to split hairs without making a point. I think wolfman makes a good point. Polygamy is an institution worldwide, and it is limited by popular demand, not from some kingly injustice. I am thinking of Southern slavery here, and how the North opposed slavery not from some moral rectitude, but because it threatened their jobs in factories. Sorry to burst your bubble, but polygamy is not enforced here, and is NOT even dscouraged. It still sucks from inbreeding, abuse, murder, molestation, jealously, injustice, unfairness and has nothing to do with love. Your faith in words reminds me of them.
How many wives do you have- and are any of them under 18, or related to you or any of your other wives? Are any of them on welfare, as you are not “in the household”? Do you live fat & happy off the welfare checks of your under-aged brainwashed “wives”? I have no real problem with somebody having a group larger than a couple- but only with those who are consenting adults, not brainwashed, and not related. And no welfare fraud, either. Note i said it LED to incest & pedophilia. Not every multiple marriage has either- in fatc, likely few have. But it is too common to ignore.
Others have told about the current state of illegal polygamy in Utah & elsewhere. I will mention 2 historical figures. Brigham Young had 27 wifes- at least 2 were 40 years younger than him. 2 were 16, and one 15- AFAWK. One was the 16 yo sister of another 19 yo wife (unless by weird coincidence they just happened to have the same last name & etc). Smith had between 37 & 41 wives, with the youngest being 14, and others being 15 & 16. It is not the numbers so much as the age- 14yo girls cannot really give informed consent.
zev- isn’t there something about marrying your brother’s widow, also? In my mind- that can be OK.
Not sure I buy this: the polygamous culture that these Mormon religious fanatics have created seems to be based largely on helping a few patriarchs maintain absolute control over their families (eliminating outside influences such as school, a normal working environment, etc.). Even if it was legal, who would be more likely to join a group like this: a woman with no prior affiliation to Joe Patriarch (as an aside, I’m sure there’d be some–the world never seems to lack for dumbasses) or a female over which he already has control: his female relatives. I’m guessing that legalizing polygamy probably wouldn’t get rid of the ‘incest is best’ mentality that these particular wacko’s practice.
I don’t really care how people arrange their marriages although polygamy does seem harder to manage, but we should definitely punish people who prey on their own children.
As an aside, didn’t/doesn’t Israel have a kibbutz (sp?) system which basically amounted to a group marriage? I seem to remember reading about creche’s (again, not sure of spelling) where small groups of people shared both the child-rearing/working aspects of a marriage and also had fairly open relationships. Is this propaganda or is there something to this? Or is it just a product of my warped mind. 
Seriously though, if anyone can debunk or clarify this kibbutz/creche system for me, I’d appreciate it.
Well, if you ask me, i’d be lucky to find ONE person who is my sort of soulmate (let alone do anything more then hug me). I don’t think that you can be totally devoted to one person while you are also totally devoted to another person. It’s not to say that you can’t love more then one person, i’m just saying that more then one SO leads to problems.
Speaking as someone who has been both a Mormon and an ex-Mormon involved in a polyamorous relationship, I believe that a multi-adult arrangement is most likely to be successful outside of a religious context. Not that many polygamous marriages end in divorce - who would have the balls to leave, considering the threat of eternal damnation, loss of custody of one’s children, etc.? We also have to remember that these folks going around wearing identical clothes most likely haven’t had access to the best education - what kind of financial situation does a disenfranchised plural wife have to look forward to? So by “successful” I mean that all parties are content, fulfilled and validated.
However, I believe it to be entirely possible that polyamorous relatioships can be as fulfilling for those who choose the lifestyle as a twosome is for most other folks. As someone else pointed out, in our society there’s a lot of serial monogamy going on these days. In years past we simply didn’t communicate with as many people as we do today. When we have more choices and more autonomy, and fewer religious constraints, our horizons broaden exponentially. I see nothing wrong with a threesome or more, as long as the relationship(s) are functional and healthy.
I am currently married. My husband and I recently ended a fairly long relationship with another female. I wouldn’t say it failed, exactly, but it no longer met the needs of everyone involved. I certainly wouldn’t rule out the possibility of a similar situation in the future.
My $.02
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
**
Under Jewish law a man cannot marry his wife’s sister while she is still alive.
Thus, if Rachel and Leah are sisters, Reuben cannot marry Leah while Rachel is still alive (even if he divorced her). After Rachel’s death he can marry Leah. [sub] Yes, I know Jacob did exactly this…[/sub]. This is written explicitly in the text, I don’t see how fundies can get around that (unless they dismiss all OT commandments in toto.)
It is forbidden for a person to marry his brother’s wife. This is true even if his brother divorced his wife and even after his brother’s death. That being said, there is one major exception. If a man’s brother dies childless then he has the option of marrying his brother’s widow. The prohibition of a brother’s wife is put aside. (NB – such marriages are never done nowadays.)
Zev Steinhardt
14 year old girls can’t give consent? Do you mean anywhere at any time and by law?
Last I checked, Judaism considered a male of the human species to be an adult at the age of 13 and a female of the same species to be an adult at the age of 12.
Face facts: Each of us is judging the whole issue by our current societal and religious mores, whatever they may be.
seem to be missing the point or maybe just hijacking it. My understanding of Robodude’s OP was that he basically questioned whether governments SHOULD have the right to legislate the type of relationship a person could enjoy or how many people could be included in it. This to me is an interesting question which several have actually addressed. (Thanks Redtail23 S)
The items on the Mormon and Jewish religions, while interesting, don’t seem to address this issue at all.
Likewise the items on incest/paediphilia. I think everyone could assume we are talking about consenting non-related adults.
Have I misunderstood the OP? Care to clarify this, Robodude?
Regards.
Testy.
So what if you can’t legally marry more than one person? There are no laws prohibiting you from living with several mates, I’ve known a few people with similar arrangements before. As long as you aren’t asking to receive the legal benefits of state-sanctioned marriage, there are no problems at all. If I wanted to (and could find them) I could live with ten 17 year old girls if I wanted to.
It’s illegal to do so in Illinois, and probably also Oregon.
In the state in which I live, fornication and adultery are crimes. There has been a prosecution for fornication in the last 3 years. These are not dead laws that are never enforced. Part of the crime is that the actions be open and notorious. Doing anything to draw attention to a polygamous marriage, such as having a nice wedding, walking hand in hand in hand, or checking into a hotel, could bring attention that would bring the law into it.
Many places have rules against more than 3 unrelated adults living in a single family zoned dwelling. Any spouse beyond the first will not have the benefits confirmed by legal marriage or as a result thereof, such as health coverage. If a spouse that is not legally married is sick, the others are not next of kin and may not even be allowed to visit them in the hospital. There are numerous other benefits of legal marriage. The more polygamous people act as married publically or use contracts such as living wills to give their spouses the rights they should have, the more attention to the crimes they commit just by being in such a union come under scrutiny.
It is not in the best interest of the state to outlaw polygamy. It makes otherwise law abiding people live outside of the law.
I usually try not to actively engage in hijacks, Testy, but if a side question comes up and I have the ability to answer it, I will try to do so, even if it doesn’t directly relate to the OP. In that respect, I am guilty.
Zev Steinhardt
Davidbw1 - just a friendly pointer. When you’re talking about how you feel or would feel, you should probably use the word ‘I’ rather than the word ‘you’.
I think that you meant that you feel you can’t be devoted to more than one person at a time and that you can’t imagine having more than one SO. That’s OK by me and I wouldn’t presume to disagree with you. I might note, however, that I know poly-people who once felt the same way.
BUT…I can get downright crotchety about other people (IRL, much less on a MB) telling me how I can and can’t feel about people in my life.
Monty - duh, ya think??? I believe the point of the OP was to discuss and debate the current societal mores on the subject, so amazingly enough that’s what a few people are doing! As far as age of consent - what Judaism does is irrelevent, as Judaism is not equivalent to the legal system. (Unless those dern Zionists sneaked in while I wasn’t looking!!! )
Testy - hiya! I’ve been dying to ask, but haven’t had a good excuse: exactly what does S mean?? I’d love to restrict the discussion to relationships between consenting, unrelated adults, but I’ve never seen it happen here. I can even handle the consenting, related adults discussions, although I’d just as soon skip it. But NOOOOOO, it always has to go down the same road. sigh I keep up hope, though. 
Hello, jane_says, how ya doin’? I’m curious and, since you’ve already posted some detail, I’m gonna ask. Hope you don’t mind… You say you were Mormon and (currently, I presume) ex-Mormon and have been involved in a poly r’ship. Were you in a ‘Mormon’ polygamous clan and got out, or did your poly happen after you left the church? (I’m guessing the latter, but I couldn’t tell for sure from your post. I’ve not personally spoken with anyone from one of those clans, and I’m thinking it would be tres interesting.)
RE: the ‘Mormon’ question. I’d have to agree with various posters: the evils and abuse seen in those communities is NOT a product of polygamy per se, it’s a product of the religious dogma and the culture. There’s too much evidence from other cultures that polygamy does not always create these problems; there’s just not evidence for a direct causal relationship. I don’t think that legalization of polygamy would resolve the problems in these families, because the problem is not polygamy. The problem is a long-term culture of abuse in isolation.
Now can we move past that discussion? Pretty please?
[hijack]
**
You mean he can only marry his wife’s dead sister??? :eek: (Pah-doom-pum-psssh!)
(Sorry, but I swear that’s the way I read it the first couple of times.) 
[/hijack]
Oy, an entire 2nd page has happened while I wasn’t looking!
Badtz Maru, in my state, not only are fornication and adultery illegal, but you can be convicted of adultery for merely appearing to be in an adulterous relationship, like, say, oh I dunno, living together. I don’t have a copy of the law on hand, but I can look it up again if you so require.
In fact, we’ve been on vacation trips where we couldn’t rent motel rooms, because (they said) there were state laws mandating the number of adults and beds per room.
There was a case just last year where a woman lost her child and had her family and life destroyed by the courts because she publicly stated that she was in a polyandrous relationship. If we were to decide to have children, we would face a daily threat, because as soon as some neighbor (or kid’s friend’s parent) decided to complain, DHS would intervene and most likely remove the children from their ‘horrible environment’.
Besides, why shouldn’t I be able to receive the legal benefits of legal marriage?
I’ve provided the majority of support for two people for years - but I can’t file my taxes that way, because it’s not allowed. (There is one possible way I could file with dependents - but since my living situation is against local law, I’m forbidden. To attempt to do so risks our family being destroyed and possibly going to jail for adultery and/or for tax evasion).
In a medical emergency, I have NO standing unless we’ve filed and have on hand all of the appropriate paperwork giving each other power-of-attorney - and even that is often ignored if relatives are present and argue against it.
That’s not even getting into survivor’s benefits, insurance, and that sort of thing. All 1500-odd marriage benefits that Vermont recently counted up, plus all of the federal benefits that they did not, in fact.
Poly families currently are in much the same state that gay families were in 20 years ago - you can only manage it by keeping your heads down and hoping that no one notices you.
That is “so what”.
Monty- currently- a 14yo is not legally responsible, or capable of making an informed chaoice. IMHO- they neve have been capable of making an adult, mature, informed choice.
And- the queries zev answered are not in any way a hijack- as in order to know why society condemns polygamy, we have to examine the historical roots- and like it or not- the Bible is very much a part of this societies roots.
Redtail- I assume you have a legal wife, and a “not-so-legal” wife living with you, and kids by the second wife. If she does not claim the kids as dependents- you can. You can also claim her if she lives with you all year, and she has no appreciable income. UNLESS, of course she gets welfare or something like that. You would simply claim her as an “adult friend living with you”- and the kids as your kids. The IRS is not going to ask personal questions about your arrangement, or make decisions whether or not it is against the law. Of course- if you go in there & claim her as “my second wife”- then there will be a problem. However, if she is getting welfare or similar aid as a “single mom” then you are quite simply- stealing.
However, you never answered my queries.
Funny, I seem to think it’s the only good arguement. It might not be the sole underlying basis for the legal aspect of polygamy laws, but preventing gene bottlenecks is the only legitimate reason I can personally think of for saying polygamy is more than just “morally” wrong.
If Cletus has 9 wives and a gene for (pick your random genetic disease)… that means 8 more women than “normal” will be taken out of the gene pool (unless they are cheating on Cletus) and being forced to combine their genes with Cletus’ defective ones. Bottleneck.
Oh, and this bottleneck is not helped at all when their 20 kids start fucking each other. Just makes the problem worse. At least legalize (and preach) sodomy as well, to cut down on the inter-sibling pregnancies.
Then things get real ugly when Clivus has kids with his own kids, but at least those are just the random mistakes, they were supposed to marry his brother anyway (their uncle).
I secretly wish I was just joking. Thanks.
You’re roght, Testy. The question I was asking is, does the government have the right to outlaw polygamy between consenting adults?
If the law in Utah is really about going after pedophiles, they should make it a felony to perform a marriage where either partner is under 18. It might have been acceptable for 14 year olds to marry in the days when education was a luxury, but today most of us are smart enough to know that kids aren’t ready for marriage.