# What's wrong with saying "All lives matter"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366 "2015-08-09T04:56:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/121 "2015-08-10T04:06:05Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes I did, and I thought it was incredibly stupid, just like everything I’ve ever read on Reddit. > > In the example the family at the dinner table, one child is not served dinner, while everybody else is. So the one child has obviously been treated the exact opposite > of how everyone else was treated. The problem could be easily and obviously solved by simply serving dinner to that kid. > > In America, police brutality is an issue that affects people of all races, not just black people. Any solution to the problem of police brutality will benefit all people of all races. A solution that specifically address the problem of police brutality against blacks but had no effect on police brutality against other races is neither possible nor desirable. See? When you stop pussyfooting around and playing coy, and when you stand up and be direct, it’s much more respectable. Plus, then everyone can see how terribly wrong you are. It’s indisputable that black people are disproportionately treated unfairly during police encounters. It’s indisputable that racism is not experienced equivalently by all races. The argument you’ve proposed is as stupid as anything one might find on reddit. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/122 "2015-08-10T04:07:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Kid’s reply: “Everyone should. I didn’t get my dinner.”. > > Or, for the “BlackLivesMatter” - “Everyone’s life matters. Black lives don’t.” > > Of course, claiming that black lives don’t matter is a ridiculous exaggeration. While saying “I didn’t get my dinner” is, in that case, a statement of fact. Maybe you should try a different analogy. So you do understand the problem with saying “all lives matter” as a response to “black lives matter.” You disagree with the implicit statement “black lives are not treated as though they matter,” but you do understand what makes “all lives matter” a faulty response. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/123 "2015-08-10T04:09:05Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes I did, and I thought it was incredibly stupid, just like everything I’ve ever read on Reddit. > > In the example the family at the dinner table, one child is not served dinner, while everybody else is. So the one child has obviously been treated the exact opposite > of how everyone else was treated. The problem could be easily and obviously solved by simply serving dinner to that kid. > > In America, police brutality is an issue that affects people of all races, not just black people. Any solution to the problem of police brutality will benefit all people of all races. A solution that specifically address the problem of police brutality against blacks but had no effect on police brutality against other races is neither possible nor desirable. So you do understand the problem with saying “all lives matter” as a response to “black lives matter.” You disagree with the implicit statement “black lives are not treated as though they matter,” but you do understand what makes “all lives matter” a faulty response. Look, I know you started the thread but really, you’re in the wrong thread. You don’t actually want to talk about what is wrong with “all lives matter.” You already understand what’s wrong with it. What you actually want to talk about is the question of whether black people are systematically, regularly, at a different rate than white people, treated as though their lives don’t matter. Go start that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/124 "2015-08-10T04:09:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So you do understand the problem with saying “all lives matter” as a response to “black lives matter.” > > You disagree with the implicit statement “black lives are not treated as though they matter,” but you do understand what makes “all lives matter” a faulty response. No. Since there are incidents of police misconduct with whites as with blacks, “black lives are not treated as though they matter” is a subset of “all lives are not treated as though they matter” in such incidents. Just like “BlackLivesMatter” is a subset of “AllLivesMatter”. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/125 "2015-08-10T04:10:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Black lives don’t matter is a ridiculous exaggeration.” > > “Black people aren’t at greater risk for harm during police encounters.” > > Those two statements are not in any way equivalent, are they? Yes, I have an idea, let’s take hyperbole completely literally, so that if we can show the hyperbole to be literally false, we can feel like there’s no problem to solve after all! And feeling like there’s no problem to solve? That actually solves every problem we care about! Hurrah! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/126 "2015-08-10T04:11:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. Since there are incidents of police misconduct with whites as with black, “black lives are not treated as though they matter” is a subset of “all lives are not treated as though they matter” in such incidents. Just like “BlackLivesMatter” is a subset of “AllLivesMatter”. blahblahblah You and I are over, **Terr.** I can’t bear to be with you anymore. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/127 "2015-08-10T05:29:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So you do understand the problem with saying “all lives matter” as a response to “black lives matter.” No, I don’t. I’m waiting for anyone to provide a logical reason why it’s wrong to say, “all lives matter”. It doesn’t appear that you’re going to. > [@](#): > > Look, I know you started the thread but really, you’re in the wrong thread. You don’t actually want to talk about what is wrong with “all lives matter.” You already understand what’s wrong with it. What you actually want to talk about is the question of whether black people are systematically, regularly, at a different rate than white people, treated as though their lives don’t matter. > > Go start that thread. I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish by telling me what I want to talk about, but you’re wrong about what I want to talk about. If _you_ want to start a different thread about a different topic, _you’re_ free to do so. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/128 "2015-08-10T05:36:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > When someone says “black lives metter” and you say “all lives matter”, you aren’t saying “yes, I agree.” You’re rejecting the point. It’s disingenuous to pretend that you thought the person saying it was ignorant of the fact that all lives matter. It’s disingenuous to pretend that you are not negating their point that given the way things stand in regards to differential threats to black lives from police, it appears that black lives do not matter. It’s dismissive and rejecting > … > When you hear “black lives matter” and respond “all lives matter”, you are rejecting the complaint that during interactions with the police, black lives matter less than others. All you’re doing is repeating the same claim over and over again, rather than trying to make any connection between saying “all lives matter” and “negating their point that given the way things stand in regards to differential threats to black lives from police, it appears that black lives do not matter.” How does one get from the first statement to the second? Certainly not by logic. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/129 "2015-08-10T07:11:33Z")
The current use of _all lives matter_ was obviously a response to _black lives matter_. We know _black lives matter_ deals with cop on black treatment and killings. From memory the _all lives matter_ crowd wished to deal with a more all encompassing problem - gang crime, guns, cops treatment of minorities etc. Sure, some of the _all lives matter_ supporters will wish to diminish the focus of cops treatment of blacks. This doesn’t mean anything like all of them are trying to diminish it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/130 "2015-08-10T07:34:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No, I don’t. I’m waiting for anyone to provide a logical reason why it’s wrong to say, “all lives matter”. It doesn’t appear that you’re going to. > I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish by telling me what I want to talk about, but you’re wrong about what I want to talk about. If _you_ want to start a different thread about a different topic, _you’re_ free to do so. Last time: You’ve indicated that you understand what is wrong with the father’s response in the analogy. This means you understand what is wrong with saying “all lives matter” in response to “black lives matter.” In both cases A has replied to B by giving a statement which, despite logically implying B’s statement, and and being in fact true, yet has the force of ignoring the implicit request B has made. You grasp immediately that this is a faulty kind of response, as indicated by your reply to the reddit case. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/131 "2015-08-10T07:51:01Z")
How ignorant of me. Here I thought it was \*\*implicit \*\* in society that All Lives Matter. Except in various locations in the US the cops didn’t get the memo when it comes to killing black lives over traffic violations and other types of low level offenses. So the unfortunate truth is All lives matter with an asterisk for blacks. No wonder a hashtag had to be born. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/132 "2015-08-10T12:30:01Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That doesn’t make sense. If one’s aim is to avoid people saying “all lives matter”, booing provides no particular aid - in fact, it’s contraindicated, since booing draws attention and thought to what’s being booed. You would have to talk to the black activists who booed “all lives matter”, or those in this thread reacting franctically against the idea. Although the idea of them booing it in order to stimulate discussion about it is pretty weird, and I wonder if you have any evidence that this is what they meant. > [@](#): > > Your suggestion that “all lives matter” vs. “black lives matter” might tempt people to think about how the lives of suspects against the lives of police and the public is a strange one. It would suggest that “black lives matter” _doesn’t_ encompass the lives of police and the public, which is very odd. They aren’t trying to exclude black police officers or black members of the public (to the extent that they are thinking about the topic at all, as opposed to the usual ‘all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others’). The qualifier in “black lives matter” is “black”, and the booing is to reject the idea of encompassing (white) police or (\*white) members of the public. But as I said, the purpose is not to think very hard about anything - simply react as the extremists tell you to. And if you give it even the modicum of thought required to see that all lives matter, you get booed. It is very important to the poverty pimps to preserve a narrative, and they can’t allow anyone to dilute the narrative with thought. Hence, simply chant “black lives matter” in unison, and don’t let anyone cloud the issue by bringing up uncomfortable side-issues. like “Michael Brown was a nasty thug” or “Trayvon Martin attacked a stranger” or “Tamir Rice was grabbing for what looked like a gun” or “Eric Garner violently resisted arrest” or anything like that. ‘Four legs good, two legs bad’ is much easier to deal with. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/133 "2015-08-10T12:57:01Z")
When Native Americans were being slaughtered by the immigrant White Americans and decent people might say **Native American Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? When Jews were being slaughtered by the Nazis and decent people might say **Jewish Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? When any minority is being abused by the majority and decent people might say **Minority Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/134 "2015-08-10T13:09:09Z")
> [@MacCat](#): > > When Native Americans were being slaughtered by the immigrant White Americans and decent people might say **Native American Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? > > When Jews were being slaughtered by the Nazis and decent people might say **Jewish Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? > > When any minority is being abused by the majority and decent people might say **Minority Lives Matter** , is **All Lives Matter** an appropriate response? Well we are going off topic but I can’t help but think your second case is nonsense. The Nazi’s were killing more than Jews. In that case \*all lives matter \*could have been an appropriate response. Saying _Jewish lives matter_ may have been seen as minimizing the lives of the numerous non Jews being killed by the Nazi’s; particularly if you were a member/relative of whatever threatened minority group. The people saying _all lives matter_ in that instance would have been very decent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/135 "2015-08-10T13:12:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “Tamir Rice was grabbing for what looked like a gun” The video shows no evidence of this, but it does show that the officers made false statements about the events. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/136 "2015-08-10T13:21:23Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > The Nazi’s were killing more than Jews. And the police are killing more than Black Americans. It’s the percentages that is most concerning, as the percentage of Jewish concentration camp victims to others was. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > In that case \*all lives matter \*could have been an appropriate response. Saying _Jewish lives matter_ may have been seen as minimizing the lives of the numerous non Jews being killed by the Nazi’s; particularly if you were a member/relative of whatever threatened minority group. The people saying _all lives matter_ in that instance would have been very decent. Any decent person knows **All Lives Matter** Speaking about their ethnicity of course, not behavior of certain individuals. Some of those lives may not matter. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/137 "2015-08-10T13:23:25Z")
Count up the black lives lost with black on black crime. Then the few tragic police incidents. What is the ratio 50 to 1, 100 to 1? Gotta be very small. I would suspect it is in the 100 to 1 range if not higher. So why don’t ALL black lives matter? What I see in the news is complaints on the police incidents that is the 1%. I have not seen any one in the news from the Black Lives Matter groups complain about the 99% deaths from all other incidents. With this I am not in any way saying the tragic deaths from police incidents are to be trivialized. Not at all. However when I hear the slogan “Black Lives Matter” I not believe those saying it are serious to it. You let 50 to 100 lives go by and not a word. Those lives matter also. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/138 "2015-08-10T13:27:35Z")
Actually [it does](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police), providing one is willing to see. If not, then simple repetition of the approved chant is all that remains. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/139 "2015-08-10T13:45:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually [it does](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police), providing one is willing to see. If not, then simple repetition of the approved chant is all that remains. > > Regards, > Shodan “…providing one is [del]willing [/del] _wanting_ to see it.” Fixed that for you. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366/140 "2015-08-10T14:25:37Z")
If you can’t respond to my posts without misrepresenting them, then please don’t respond. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-saying-all-lives-matter/727366.md?page=8)