What's wrong with saying "All lives matter"?

[Terr]

@Revenant_Threshold

You asserted that so far as “Black Lives Matter” goes as a slogan, “the natural reaction of anyone who isn’t black upon seeing it is “so does my life”.”

I’m not black, and that wasn’t my natural reaction.

Yes, I should have said “a natural reaction”. Just so that all the sensitive liberals wouldn’t chime in with “not mine”.

[Richard_Parker]

@Terr

Yes, I should have said “a natural reaction”. Just so that all the sensitive liberals wouldn’t chime in with “not mine”.

Have you wondered why you feel defensive about this slogan when many other white people do not feel defensive about it?

[ITR_champion]

@theR

Yes, the DoJ report on Ferguson is very solid and statistically valid evidence even if you don’t accept it. There have also been similar findings by DoJ, for example in Seattle.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/seattlepd.php

I’m not seeing anything in the document you link to which supports the claim that policemen view black lives as cheap or disposable, or think that black lives don’t matter. I wonder whether you even read what you linked to, or thought about it at all.

One part of the DOJ’ s investigation and report focused on excessive use of force by Seattle Police. It found frequent use of excessive use of force, with no mention of that occurring more often towards blacks or any other race. So that would seem to confirm that police brutality is an issue for all races.

A separate section discusses discriminatory policing, and confirms that the Seattle Police did not engage in discriminatory policing. It does contain some vague statements suggesting a possibility: “…may disproportionately affect youth of color”, “…suggest concerns of discrimination”. None of these vague statements deals with police brutality, though. They all deal with other aspects of policing.

So yeah, it’s a good idea to read a source and know what it says before you cite it.

[XT]

@ITR_champion

This question arose in my mind again upon hearing the news that two ‘Black Lives Matter’ activists disrupted a Bernie Sanders speech, shoved Sanders, and accused the crowd of being “white supremacist liberals”. This is, of course, not the first episode of this kind. Last month an appearance by Martin O’Malley at Netroots Nation was disrupted by similar activists. O’Malley was booed and shouted down after he said “Black lives matter. White liver matter. All lives matter.” He latter apologized (!) for saying that. And earlier this year, the President of Smith College also apologized for a message saying that “All lives matter”.

What is wrong with saying that all lives matter? Or to put the question in a broader context, why is it wrong to say that the civil rights of all people should be protected against police violence, and what do these activists hope to gain from being jerks and preventing people from speaking out in favor of the defense of civil rights for everyone?

I think the concept of the Black Lives Matters is a good one. Personally, I think that they SHOULD have gone with a Black Lives Matter TOO as their label to avoid just this sort of parsing, but in the end I think people can read between the lines.

One thing that impressed me recently was when a (white) kid was killed by police in a (stupid) marijuana bust (something that seemingly many 'dopers don’t think happen…i.e. that white kids can be killed by police as well), it was many BLACK activists that initially took up the call and got the story national attention. I was a bit surprised that there wasn’t a thread on this in fact, though maybe I missed it.

[elucidator]

…"the natural reaction of anyone who isn’t black upon seeing it is "…

Well, of course, that is the natural reaction. Its always been that way, and always shall. That is why all these silly notions of cooperation and sharing are doomed to failure. Everybody knows that, but some people persist in pretending that something else is possible.

[inscrutable]

@Terr

Cool. How many more “Me, me, look how liberal and sensitive I am!!!111!!” replies will I get?

My reaction to it is that if anyone of any color wants their life to matter, then maybe they should learn how to live a responsible and productive life.

[XT]

@inscrutable

My reaction to it is that if anyone of any color wants their life to matter, then maybe they should learn how to live a responsible and productive life.

Or, perhaps if they and others figure out that their lived DO matter it will be a step on the road to fixing some of our collective fucked up issues with race in this country.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Terr

Yes, I should have said “a natural reaction”. Just so that all the sensitive liberals wouldn’t chime in with “not mine”.

Could I ask you to answer my questions? I feel like if I’m coming across false in some way then that’s a pretty big bar to debate.

[ITR_champion]

@John_Mace

That’s an unfortunate article, but is it your contention that blacks, and particularly young black males, are not subject to heightened police scrutiny? That young black males are not especially vulnerable to police brutality? I don’t see how anyone living in the US could deny that.

No, not at all. Police brutality is an issue to everyone. There are more encounters between police and black citizens (relative to population size) than other races, because blacks generally live in areas of much higher crime. But the issue of police brutality is an issue for all people of all races, and responding to it with the statement “all lives matter” seems to me like a very good idea.

Yet clearly activists will not allow anyone to say “all lives matter”, at least not at events which they control. And I’m trying to figure out why.

[theR]

@ITR_champion

I’m not seeing anything in the document you link to which supports the claim that policemen view black lives as cheap or disposable, or think that black lives don’t matter. I wonder whether you even read what you linked to, or thought about it at all.

One part of the DOJ’ s investigation and report focused on excessive use of force by Seattle Police. It found frequent use of excessive use of force, with no mention of that occurring more often towards blacks or any other race. So that would seem to confirm that police brutality is an issue for all races.

A separate section discusses discriminatory policing, and confirms that the Seattle Police did not engage in discriminatory policing. It does contain some vague statements suggesting a possibility: “…may disproportionately affect youth of color”, “…suggest concerns of discrimination”. None of these vague statements deals with police brutality, though. They all deal with other aspects of policing.

So yeah, it’s a good idea to read a source and know what it says before you cite it.

I also mentioned the DoJ report on Ferguson.

ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

Ferguson’s approach to law enforcement both reflects and reinforces racial bias,
including stereotyping. The harms of Ferguson’s police and court practices are borne
disproportionately by African Americans, and there is evidence that this is due in part to
intentional discrimination on the basis of race.

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African Americans. Data
collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans
account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers,
despite comprising only 67% of Ferguson’s population. African Americans are more than twice
as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race
based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of
contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering
race as a factor when determining whether to search. African Americans are more likely to be
cited and arrested following a stop regardless of why the stop was initiated and are more likely to
receive multiple citations during a single incident. From 2012 to 2014, FPD issued four or more
citations to African Americans on 73 occasions, but issued four or more citations to non-African
Americans only twice. FPD appears to bring certain offenses almost exclusively against African
Americans. For example, from 2011 to 2013, African Americans accounted for 95% of Manner
of Walking in Roadway charges, and 94% of all Failure to Comply charges. Notably, with
respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African
Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate
impact of FPD’s enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are
issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer’s own
visual assessment.

These disparities are also present in FPD’s use of force. Nearly 90% of documented
force used by FPD officers was used against African Americans. In every canine bite incident
for which racial information is available, the person bitten was African American.

Municipal court practices likewise cause disproportionate harm to African Americans.
African Americans are 68% less likely than others to have their cases dismissed by the court, and
are more likely to have their cases last longer and result in more required court encounters.
African Americans are at least 50% more likely to have their cases lead to an arrest warrant, and
accounted for 92% of cases in which an arrest warrant was issued by the Ferguson Municipal
Court in 2013. Available data show that, of those actually arrested by FPD only because of an
outstanding municipal warrant, 96% are African American.

Our investigation indicates that this disproportionate burden on African Americans
cannot be explained by any difference in the rate at which people of different races violate the
law. Rather, our investigation has revealed that these disparities occur, at least in part, because
of unlawful bias against and stereotypes about African Americans. We have found substantial
evidence of racial bias among police and court staff in Ferguson. For example, we discovered
emails circulated by police supervisors and court staff that stereotype racial minorities as
criminals, including one email that joked about an abortion by an African-American woman
being a means of crime control.

City officials have frequently asserted that the harsh and disparate results of Ferguson’s
law enforcement system do not indicate problems with police or court practices, but instead
reflect a pervasive lack of “personal responsibility” among “certain segments” of the community.
Our investigation has found that the practices about which area residents have complained are in
fact unconstitutional and unduly harsh. But the City’s personal-responsibility refrain is telling:
it reflects many of the same racial stereotypes found in the emails between police and court
supervisors. This evidence of bias and stereotyping, together with evidence that Ferguson has
long recognized but failed to correct the consistent racial disparities caused by its police and
court practices, demonstrates that the discriminatory effects of Ferguson’s conduct are driven at
least in part by discriminatory intent in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.

[John_Mace]

@ITR_champion

No, not at all. Police brutality is an issue to everyone. There are more encounters between police and black citizens (relative to population size) than other races, because blacks generally live in areas of much higher crime. But the issue of police brutality is an issue for all people of all races, and responding to it with the statement “all lives matter” seems to me like a very good idea.

Yet clearly activists will not allow anyone to say “all lives matter”, at least not at events which they control. And I’m trying to figure out why.

It’s not just poor blacks living in crime-riddle ghettos that have trouble with the police. Pretty much any black male you meet is going to be able to tell you about being hassled for no apparent reason.

[Frylock]

@Richard_Parker

Have you wondered why you feel defensive about this slogan when many other white people do not feel defensive about it?

Exactly this.

There is a reason you (Terr and others) feel defensive about this, yet many others–even white people!–do not. I wonder what you guys think the reason is.

[BuddhaBeast]

Okay but is it only black males?

It’s got more to do with the well-to-do upper middle class being protected from the “evil” lower-middle and impoverished regardless of skin color.

Here is a website that keeps a record of everyone killed by a cop and you will notice that there are a lot of whites who are killed by police.

Gun Reviews and Buying Guides

[John_Mace]

No one is saying whites are not killed by cops, too. The proportions do no support the idea that it’s a class thing, rather than a racial thing.

[BuddhaBeast]

@John_Mace

No one is saying whites are not killed by cops, too. The proportions do no support the idea that it’s a class thing, rather than a racial thing.

Well, its extremely rare for a cop to kill a well to do man or woman of any race, so I don’t see how you can say that.

And by well-to-do I mean upper-middle class and beyond.

[John_Mace]

It’s not just how many people are killed by cops-- it’s the circumstances. And it’s well documented that blacks of all socio-economic classes are more likely to be hassled by police than whites.

No one is overly concerned about the armed guy robbing a bank who is shot by police. They are alarmed by the guy pulled over for broken taillight who ends up getting killed.

[inscrutable]

@Richard_Parker

Have you wondered why you feel defensive about this slogan when many other white people do not feel defensive about it?

Not sure that “defensive” is the right word – “puzzled” maybe.
…and I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that “many other white people” (probably a majority) don’t really give a damn…

[marshmallow]

@ITR_champion

What is wrong with saying that all lives matter?

It’s a polite way of telling black people to go to the back of the bus. Hey, we’re white lib politicians, we’re trying to win a national election here and we need to make white people as comfortable as possible, so cool it with the black lives matter shtick.

One problem is that these black activists, like other lib groups, are trapped. They have no where else to go. What, if Bernie and Hillary tell them to go pound sand are they gonna vote Rand Paul instead? Gotta love the two party system.

[ITR_champion]

@marshmallow

It’s a polite way of telling black people to go to the back of the bus.

That’s a nonsensical statement. How does saying “all lives matter” constitute telling anyone to go anywhere? I don’t see any logical connection between the two. Isn’t “all lives matter” an affirmation of equal rights for all people?

Hey, we’re white lib politicians, we’re trying to win a national election here and we need to make white people as comfortable as possible, so cool it with the black lives matter shtick.

What Martin O’Malley said was, “Black lives matter. White lives matter. All lives matter.” That can hardly be a rejection of the words “black lives matter”, can it?

[Terr]

@Frylock

Exactly this.

There is a reason you (Terr and others) feel defensive about this, yet many others–even white people!–do not. I wonder what you guys think the reason is.

Simple. If you want to end discrimination - don’t discriminate. If you want to end racism, don’t racially separate people. “BlackLivesMatter” is a concept that separates blacks and whites. By definition it does, no matter how you try to spin it.