What's wrong with taxing consumption?

I’ve actually felt that there should be only a sales tax. After all, we’re a market economy. Everyone gets their income, directly or indirectly, through sales of some sort. None of this would be possible without a decent government providing a good backing…so, all they ask is to tax all sales. Or only tax income. But both? Man, that’s like taxing all the money twice.

Don’t forget used items still get taxed. Taxed as many times as they’re sold! That’s why I think ONLY a sales tax should be implimented. I would think that its even easier to enforce than income tax. Anyone know what our GNP is? How much of a tax rate would we need to get the same revenue from only taxing consumption (which I guess is sales, I don’t know how else to interpret that)? Where’s waterj and his tax charts… :slight_smile:

Ah, “the sales tax falls heavily on the poor!” Rubbish. Everything falls hard on the poor. Man, arguing about poor people is like hiding from your own shadow.

One only pays 20% tax on capital gains, provided it is hung onto for at least a year…Hardly high heaven in my book. In fact, it is another way in which taxes end up being less progressive than what they might look like if you only go by the marginal rates in the income tax tables.

(Well, not really a side track, since I believe this post is about a consumption tax…You are just bringing it back on track!)

I don’t understand your point here…Everything is bad for the poor, so let’s just not worry about them? There are things that are better for them or worse for them. A sales tax implemented in the most naive way is amongst the most regressive taxes around because the poor spend a higher percentage of their income than the wealthy. However, as has been talked about in this post, it is possible to come up with schemes for a consumption tax that are more progressive. The question is whether they would have political “legs” and whether they would work, etc. But, I’m certainly not dismissing them out-of-hand.

I started this thread and have been sitting back watching for awhile. One statement made here gets me, however. What are all these wonderful benefits us working poor get out of society that we haven’t paid for??? We pay gas taxes and sales taxes like everyone else. My father’s property taxes paid for my education just like everyone else. We don’t get free medical care or health insurance or food or housing. And if we make over 9k a year, by god we pay income taxes too. And aynrandlover, those wonderful industrialists and business owners for whom we make profits will pay us as little as they can get by paying us, there are very few Dagny Taggarts and Hank Reardons who value highly productive people enough to want to pay them a generous wage if they don’t have to. In fact, I’ve yet to meet a single one who would pay me twice as much for being twice as productive as the slacker I was sitting next to. But that’s another thread.

I think there should just be taxes on unearned income.
Let the workers get the breaks, not the idle rich.

As promised: An assessment of the case for changing from an income to a consumption tax base. Be warned, this is going to take a while. I’m trying to present the cases even-handedly here.

Just to begin, as noted by various people there are two different sorts of consumption taxes:[ul][li]Sales taxation (like the European Value Added Tax – also known as a Goods and Services Tax after New Zealand’s coinage –- which is multistage tax, and single stage Retail Sales Taxes which are more common in US states)[/li][li]Direct taxation on a consumption base. I give some details below, but the most important difference here is that these taxes can be made progressive, whereas it is not really possible to do this with a sales tax whilst maintaining significant revenue and administrative feasibility.[/ul][/li]There are three main traditions in looking at what constitutes a “good” tax (I’m mainly using the third):[ul][li]benefit taxation[]optimal taxation[]“ability to pay” or equitable taxation [/ul]Benefit taxation looks at tax burdens and expenditure benefits together and comes from the Swedish tradition pioneered by Wicksell and Lindahl. In this way of looking at things, a system of “just taxation” is where each taxpayer faces a tax rate equal to their marginal benefit of government expenditure. Whilst this is a pretty appealing way to look at the issue in principal the impossibility of reliably gathering the information required to make it work in a large numbers situation means that it isn’t really a practical option for running a tax system.[/li]
The optimal taxation tradition –- pioneered by Ramsey – starts by recognising that all feasible tax systems distort economic decisions because some things (notably leisure) are untaxable. In the light of this the theoretically best tax system (from the standpoint of efficiency) is a complex system of taxes with different rates for different commodities and activities. A pure Ramsey system would tax commodities at a rate inversely proportional to the price-responsiveness of individual markets. Equity objectives modify the conclusion a bit, but the general theoretical result is for lots of different tax rates.

Once again, whilst this is an important strand of thinking it has pretty severe limitations. Once again informational and administrative considerations make this not really a practical option for the bulk of taxes. In addition the imperfect nature of governments would means that giving them the power to try to do this would be a recipe for disaster. Generally speaking most economists would agree that taxing some broad economic aggregate like income, consumption, wages or wealth at standard rates is the only serious policy option for most revenue-raising. Optimal tax considerations enter into the debate, but mainly for questions like: [ul][li]Can we better achieve our equity objectives with income tax rates or by exempting food from the tax base? []Should we be more concerned about work incentives for high income earners facing high tax rates or average income women facing middling rates?[/ul]This leaves us with equitable taxation, a tradition which basically proceeds along the lines of taxing a broad aggregate at a standard rate scale. The standard tax policy objectives in this tradition are:[ul][]Revenue adequacy[]Efficiency (which in this context means neutrality – the tax system should change agents’ decisions about what to consume, how much to work, save, invest etc. as little as possible)[]Equity, both horizontal (the equal taxation of individuals or households in the same economic position) and vertical equity (the unequal treatment of people in different positions). Obviously there is no agreement on how unequal tax burdens should be. Note in passing that even quite steeply regressive taxes result in the rich paying more tax than the poor.[]Simplicity[]various others such as federalism, international efficiency, stabilisation and growth which are less important here.[/ul]The basic result in this tradition is that to a fair degree these objectives can be simultaneously pursued with an income or consumption tax levied at an equal rate on all activities on a progressive rate scale for a personal or direct tax possibly supplemented by a broad-based uniform rate indirect sales tax.[/li]
As an aside, note that this conclusion is weakened (but not really overturned) if you are worried that the government is a revenue-grabbing monster rather than an entity which comes to the appropriate amount of government expenditure by some process of balance which reflects what people want in some way.

So the choice is between consumption and income as the direct tax base. Many people have argued over the centuries that consumption is the better base for both equity and efficiency reasons.

Both consumption and income are going to be pretty crude proxies for economic position. Measured income or consumption will never be a perfect measure of how well off a person is. An example: suppose you are taxing households and you observe that two couples have the same market income (and if you assume they undertake no saving they would have the same market consumption as well). Suppose for one couple both individuals are earning a market wage of $50 000 and for the other couple one individual is performing unpaid tasks around the house and the other is earning $100 000. The benefits of the household production can’t be counted for tax purposes, yet clearly --since the person could have received a wage but decided not to – the second couple is in a better economic position than the first. No tax system is really going to be able to pick up on that effectively.

One reason consumption can be viewed as a superior proxy is that it is a better measure of lifetime economic position than year to year income. Consumption is much less volatile than income. The typical response of income tax proponents is that they have always (well since the 1930s anyway) advocated allowing income to be averaged over time for tax purposes for precisely this reason. This is just an argument for doing income tax right, not abolishing it.

The big argument in favour of expenditure tax has always been about savings (and the economic growth consequences of savings’ tax treatment). The line has always been that income tax taxes the activity of saving at a higher rate than anything else. If economic agents undertake saving for the purpose of future consumption this argument is true: an income tax unfairly overtaxes people who like to save and biases the economy against saving [I’ll provide a numerical example if anyone wants]. A tax on consumption or a wages tax is neutral in this respect. The conclusion of the expenditure tax proponents is that consumption is therefore a better base for tax than income on both efficiency and (horizontal) equity grounds. The connection between savings and economic growth is also obviously pretty important. The fact that the tax can be made progressive means that vertical equity concerns can be dealt with by an expenditure tax.

The second big point put by expenditure tax people is the simplicity argument. There are three ways to get from an income tax to a consumption tax:[ul][li]exempt the initial saving required to finance investments: C=Y-S, (‘Y’ is income)[]allow 100% deprecation allowance on investments: C=Y-I (‘I’ is investment)[]or exempt income derived from capital from tax C=Y[sub]L[/sub]=Y-Y[sub]K[/sub] (‘L’ is labour, ‘K’ capital)[/ul]In the very long run these approaches will give pretty much the same result although the transitional differences are substantial.[/li]
If you look at these approaches something stands out. If you use the cash-flow or Fisher method I mentioned in an earlier post or use a wages tax, many of the things that make doing income tax well difficult disappear. Looking at the first crude little equation, accrued pension rights (superannuation) are hard to tax fairly and efficiently. In the second equation, depreciation of investment is hard to allow for in a simple and non-distorting way and debt is complex to treat under income tax. In the third equation, capital gains are a nightmare to tax effectively. Under a cash-flow consumption tax you don’t have to worry about any of them, the problems simply disappear. Administrative and compliance issues become much smaller. (Practically this would be done under the Meade Committee’s system of asset registration. I recommend reading the full report if you suffer from insomnia.)

Ok, that’s the case for switching to a consumption expenditure base. You can have as progressive a tax as you like which is fairer, simpler and more efficient than income tax.

Now, as the remark I linked to in an earlier post alluded to, these were arguments that had gathered a fair bit of steam by the 1970s, but enthusiasm has since dissipated a fair bit.

The first reason is simple enough. In the 1970s people were pretty concerned about economic growth because there wasn’t much. A major reason for this was thought to be a lack of available savings for capital accumulation. Much of the political impetuous for action therefore has disappeared since most Western economies have grown strongly during the last decade. Anyone trying to hang this tax change on the supposedly stultifying effects of income tax on growth these days is probably going to get a funny look. In addition, economists’ views on growth have been changing, with the growth and development literature de-emphasising capital accumulation and re-emphasising human capital (education), institutions and innovation. Also capital mobility has hugely increased since the 1970s with the abolition of capital and currency controls. It is no longer true that domestic investment is strongly constrained by domestic saving.

The second reason is that both the savings and simplicity arguments are weaker than first thought.

The savings argument can be attacked theoretically by denying that all saving is undertaken for the purposes of future consumption (even taking bequests as future consumption). Saving can also be motivated by the desire to accumulate. Having an existing pool of savings gives you advantages in terms of security and (for large holdings) power. These “extra benefits” of saving are current benefits of saving and would be entirely untaxed under expenditure tax. So whilst it might be said that saving would be overtaxed by income tax it could equally be said that it would be undertaxed under consumption tax.

The response to this by mainstream expenditure tax advocates (ie those who are not pushing the idea because they think it will line the pockets of the rich) is to say this: “First, we still win because an ideal consumption tax would tax the current benefits of saving and therefore in theory it is still better than income tax, nyah. Secondly, this in practice can be dealt with by a small wealth tax.”

But this is a big problem: all those complicated things that you need to measure for income tax you need to measure for wealth tax. Indeed serious wealth taxes are probably even more complex than income taxes. So the either the efficiency and equity arguments are greatly undermined (if you don’t have a supplementary wealth tax) or the simplicity baby goes out with the bathwater.

Finally there is a lack of empirical evidence for the importance of the savings argument. In order to justify the sort of upheaval this sort of a change would entail it needs to be shown that the savings argument is a big deal. What you need in order to do this is to show that the supply elasticity of aggregate saving is a biggish number – say 3 :). In other words you need to show that if you reduced taxes on saving you’d get more saving (preferably lots more saving). If you can’t do that the efficiency argument just doesn’t fly (although the horizontal equity argument is still there). Now there is ample evidence that different types of saving and investment are highly sensitive to after tax returns. Initial fairly high aggregate savings elasticity estimates were however subject to severe criticism in the literature. Later studies – many by expenditure tax advocates – failed to show anything (ie failed to reject it being 0). At least as at the last time I looked at this stuff no-one could confidently say that aggregate savings behaviour responds at all. Now as an economist I am confident that savings behaviour does respond, but the point is that it if we can’t see any response then the response must be pretty small even if it’s there.

A quick word on the transitional problems – a change of this magnitude would involve large windfall gains and losses, which either means it has no hope of getting up politically (unless the potential losers don’t wake up to the fact) or complex compensation arrangements. Add to this the fact that the capital market has to revalue every asset in the economy in the face of considerable uncertainty about the effects of existing taxes and the great political will required to follow the announced programme.

Switching to a wages tax tomorrow would give holders of existing assets large, tax-free, wholly unearned gains. In effect this would be a massive transfer of wealth to the (mostly) already wealthy. A more gradual and orderly transition (via an asset registration process) would greatly reduce these windfall gains (and the losses which other taxpayers would effectively face as a consequence) but would be a long process which would delay the emergence of any benefits from the change.

Lastly anyone who had accumulated savings under income tax would effectively taxed a third time on their savings as they faced higher prices for current consumer goods. This would be mainly the elderly and politically they would have to be compensated. An expensive and complex business.

To wrap up: whilst there is no question that an expenditure tax could work and is a viable –- and maybe even a superior – alternative to income tax, the case is far from overwhelming and the transitional period looks tricky. Other types of tax reform (reform within the capital income area to equalise the tax treatment of different types of assets for example) look easier and promise more reward for effort. I doubt we’ll see an expenditure tax in an advanced economy in the next twenty years.

If you’ve got problems with wealth than the quest should be, as I’ve stated, to go “socialist-through-taxation.” Money gets its value through economic classes. That is, someone always has to be poor. The problem here is that we see people staying poor and not advancing through the ranks like “we want them to.”

Here’s a tip: don’t give them money. Come on, I speak from first-hand experience in multiple states where public housing is implimented. Hand-outs only help people survive at a mediocre or worse level.

As far as “the stinkin’ rich payin’ us crap” (yes, I’m exaggerating, please don’t get upset :slight_smile: ) that’s the way it is suppoed to work.

Let me give my view on “the system.” We have a bunch of people starving, looking for any work they can get, etc. Then we get some aristocrat who has money and he builds a factory to get more money. Physical labor, right? The lowest of the low as far as work goes. Zero skill, little training necessary. What sort of pay-scale do you suppose we should set for this work? Anyone can do it. Answer, you set whatever you can to keep workers there, and no more. Why should it be any different? What, does the rich guy owe it to his employees? Pshaw. He had money before the factory. He just wanted more.

Now, under these normal circumstances wages will not go up. We’re in the “Keynesian” wage area (chortle). Any workers who “strike” and quit working in order to demand higher wages will instantly be replaecd by the workers who were currently starving but now see openings. In order for a strike to be successful, these workers must force other people to not get work at a factory which needs work.

Ah, unions.

I am not strictly upset by the idea of workers pulling for higher wages. I am upset at their tactics. It has ballooned into such a terrible monstrosity now that I can say with 100% accuracy that I hate, literally hate, today’s unions. They demand more than their position requires.

But, that is another thread (damn hijacks).
As far as “the sales tax falling heavily on the poor” because this forces the poor to pay a higher percentage of their income to tax, boo-hoo. What more can I say? They’re poor. I am poor by some standards. Who cares?

The cry to help the poor is fantastic…so guess what I say? FUCKING HELP THEM. That’s right…if you care then you should do something. Non-profit organizations can bring in millions to causes. Without a government-granted silver spoon maybe we’d find the 800 lb welfare recipient might take a load off and start licking envelopes in her spare time. Man. It is not my duty to do anything for anyone; I do not expect anyone to do anything for me. I give money to the homeless all the time, in $10 plus amounts. Poor people, I donate my clothes, food, and other stuff.
{sheepishly tries to calm down now :o )
There is always going to be a group of poor people no matter how much we raise the standard of living because poverty is a relative term. Poor people I know have tvs, automobiles, a place to live. They are just poor. It is a sad thing to see, agreed. But there will always be poor people, no matter what. Period. There has yet to exist a nation that does not have poor people. We aren’t going to fix it by taking money from the rich. We aren’t going to fix it by “creating” new jobs. They cannot go away. So long as there is money, there is poverty somewhere.
I regret very much that some feel that we should nip off the success and good fortune of others because of this. Real-world and literary examples of class-less or other “utopian” societies are downright horrific. I fear anyone who feels we should move in that direction.

[end rant]

You missed my point aynrandlovr. Here is an example. I once knew someone who applied for a job as a clerk for the city. The job required some college, typing, shorthand (this was awhile back), good grammar and all of those things handy in a good clerk. This job paid HALF the salary that went to the groundskeeper, which required, er, what? The ability to weed, turn on water and push a mower?

Being paid less than well has nothing to do with the skills required to do a job.

I used to admire ms rand as much as you do - before I spent 30 years working. She’s an idealist - nothing wrong with that, no. But I have since come to this conclusion: if you give ANYONE all of your working hours, I don’t care if it’s shoveling S**T. They owe you, at minimum, a living wage.

Morally.

Well, picmr, if there’s one point I’ve gotten out of those long posts of yours, it’s that the transition to another system will kill you.
I’d like to bring up a point I’ve brought up in other taxation threads and which I never see brought up: that any progressive income tax will automatically punish people who live in high cost-of-living areas, places where items like housing and car insurance are expensive relative to other parts of the country. Obviously these are built-up urban and suburban areas, as opposed to rural areas where housing is relatively cheap as are other items.
That said, I wouldn’t dispose of an income tax, simply because of the impracticality brought up by picmr of transitioning to another system, along with some of the other objections to other systems of taxation brought up by him.
But our current system has some “gotchas” in there that need to be gotten rid of:

a) if you make more than 128,950, your deductions begin to be disallowed. Sounds like a lot, but in high cost-of-living areas, this isn’t nearly as much as you would think for a two-earner couple. It’s an unnecessary complication that really needs to be eliminated.
b) the phase-out of personal exemptions. This begins at a much higher income, something like 250k or so, but it results in a “bubble” effect, where a marginal dollar is taxed at a much higher rate than the published rate on the table, until you get past it to a higher income level where personal exemptions are completely disallowed. The income at which it’s set is precisely designed to hit successful small businessmen. Silly and idiotic, IMO.

Overall, simplification is best, I think. (The point that a simpler code is also easier to enforce and therefore could allow for a bigger take is interesting.) The '86 tax reform, with two brackets, 15 and 28%, and with all capital gains taxed at the same rate as ordinary income, was a grand compromise between Republicans who wanted a flatter tax, and Democrats who wanted to eliminate the special treatment of capital gains and thereby eliminate a large number of tax shelters. We should go back to that.

Thanks, picmr, on the very interesting and impressive discussion about consumption vs. income taxes!!! Clearly, an issue you have a lot of expertise on and it is interesting to hear where the current thinking on it is. I don’t know what else to say!

As for aynrandlover

I am at a loss to understand what makes you hate unions so much! Unions in this country are actually in a very weak state. I am sure they are the cause of some injustices, but it seems to me that they are doing way more good than harm.

So, we should just give up and settle for what we’ve got? Why can’t we make choices to move in the direction of other countries where poverty exists but is much less pervasive? Ever walked around in a big city in Canada? Or, better yet, Denmark or Sweden?

Why does everything have to be black-and-white? Good God, do you think any less equality than what we have now is “class-less”?!?! Give me a break! I mean, you talk about moving in the direction of slavery and serfdom if you want to talk about the extremes. All because one doesn’t want to go to the extremes doesn’t justify not moving in a certain direction!

By the way, just a little amusing anecdote that I thought I’d get in while we are on a rant here. The CEO of Xerox was recently fired after Xerox went from a big money-making company to a money-losing company and the stock dropped from like $80-something to <$10 a share. It is not even clear whether or not the company will survive. All this in less than 2 years I believe. He seems to have basically single-handedly destroyed a Fortune 500 company. (What he apparently did was forced them to totally revamp their sales force in some bizarre way for no apparent reason…and while their sales force was lumbering around in confusion, the competitors came in and grabbed all the customers!) However, this man was guaranteed in his contract to get $600,000 for life if he was fired. But, the Xerox board had pity on him…After all, who can get by on only $600,000 a year (plus whatever else he can make doing something else, like destroying another company for example)!!! So, they gave him an extra $200,000 a year just to be nice. This is the same company that is now laying off employees for this bozo’s mistakes!

A colleague where I work used to say that he would run our company just as badly for half the money. As I told him the other day, he can never even make that offer to Xerox, because no matter how hard he tried, I really am not sure Dennis is capable of doing as bad a job as that bozo did! I mean if he just came into the office everyday and twiddled his thumbs he would have caused far less harm!

If you want to get mad about something, why not get mad about this rather than taking all your anger out on labor unions and poor folks?

Before this thread completely veers off into a debate between aynrandlover and jshore (I’m on jshore’s side in case anyone’s interested) I would like to point out that NJ has a sales tax which exempts food, clothing, and I think prescription drugs, which is pretty close to what the OP suggests we do overall. This is a decent way of making a consumption tax somewhat progressive in its effects.
One other point against a consumption tax, though, that I also haven’t seen brought up: it can be made invisible, which is a very insidious thing. Does anyone out there know how much of what they pay for a gallon of gas is tax? If you do, you’re the exception. This means that the government can raise the tax and you would almost not know it, because the tax is incorporated into the price of whatever item it is that you’re buying.

And here I was, forgetting all about this thread. Sheesh. So many good debates! :slight_smile:

pohjonen
I am surely not stating that work is fair, practically or ideally. I was a complete socialist, and I mean complete, until I got my first job. The “team” mentality shut me out instantly, call it what you will. Rand is an idealist, but we don’t agree on a lot of things. And I am, by most standards, far from an objectivist. Ah, well. You cna’t win 'em all.

jshore
Nah, we shouldn’t just ignore poor people…in fact, I give money to poor people. Out of pity? Who knows. I’ve been pretty damn poor earlier in my life and I don’t like seeing others in that state or worse. So I help them.
I merely contest forced aid. Volunteer aid is great, desirable, encouraged.
I also contest a graduated tax system because it “falls heavily on the poor.” Graduating a tax system isn’t the way to make poor people be not poor anymore, so its irrelevant whether or not it will fall heavily on them. The only reason anyone would find it relevant is because they feel it is either “wrong” morally or “inhibitive” economically.
If you would like to argue the former, fine. The latter, even better. But I see no other reason why this is not a viable solution.
Everyone takes advantage of the security the government offers in matters economic. Thus, everyone should pay for it. No?
In consumption, rich people spend more money and thus pay more taxes. No?
I don’t know, by any reasonable definition of fair I find this to be right-on.

Sigh. Nothing like not saying what you mean. :smiley:

To be honest, starting in a vacuum, I just have no idea what is fair in the sense that I think you mean it, which seems to be that everyone gets out the same amount of benefit as the money they put in. As picmr pointed out, this is impossible or damn near impossible to measure. I have no idea where you have managed to figure out that an ungraduated sales tax works out just right. (As opposed to a graduated one, or an ungraduated income tax…which has very different distributional effects…or a graduated one.)

So, in the absence of knowing this, I just look at the society today and say, “Do I think what I see is fair and, if not, which direction do I want to move in?” And, of course, since we are not the only nation on the planet, I can compare to other ones too. Admittedly, this is a judgement call…But, hey, I think those who claim they are basing their judgements on some more basic first-principles are just fooling themselves anyway. Designing a socioeconomic political system ain’t like doing math. You just can’t deductively reason to a conclusion of what things ought to be like. (To be fair, I do think there are some questions that can be answered, at least to some degree, with more objective certainty…For example, it seems likely that we can safely say that those who believe in “market economics” and also believe that gasoline is priced the way it ought to be are holding two very contradictory beliefs.)

What do you mean here? Obviously anything other than a complete free market anarchistic economy is guided by some “principle” as to what is “good.” As are tax scales, etc etc. In practice things might get murky and cross some boundries, but I would have you reread this thread. Obviously some people feel “poor” people deserve some special treatment by virtue of being poor.
Sounds like a motivating principle to me, no?

You guys have touched on a subject very dear to my heart. I do not believe in any income tax at all for anyone. It makes no sense to me to put a drag on work, initiative, or any other engine of wealth in this country. I want to see government get out of our lives. I want to see fairness between honest business people and tax evaders. All this can be accomplished by focusing on consumptive taxes, in particular raw resources. Non renewable energy sources should be taxed to the hilt in order to accomplish the revenue the state requires. The rich would then be more likely to look to human resources to satisfy their needs than to draw from our non renewable common heritage. The downside of course is that the accounting and legal professions would be greatly diminished, but I could live with that.

Well, I would argue that even the anarchistic market one is driven by some belief about what is good.

What is it that I am trying to say here…Hmmm…Well,

(1) That I think you are naive in believing that you can figure out the tax structure that correctly does not redistribute any income, in the sense that noone is getting more benefit relative to what they put in than anyone else.

(2) That principles of how to set up a just society necessarily involve getting feedback from attempts to do so and looking at the results. In other words, I don’t think you can just say, “Well, I think this society is fair because it results in maximal freedom, and if leads to poor slobs starving on the street, well, so be it, because it is based on the correct principle.” I think that the process of setting up a society necessarily as to be more inductive. (“Boy, I thought it would be nice to try some sort of maximal freedom thing, but what is resulting is a society which such inequality that it is tragic and some are “free” in name only, so we better tune things some.”)

Well, I leave for home tomorrow…so you may not hear from me again for a while. Have a nice holiday and New Year!

You want to tax a fundamental input into production, at an extravagent rate, because you don’t want to disrupt the “engine of growth”? Hello?

grienspace, consumption taxes have very similar effects to income taxes. Both sorts of taxes cause people to substitute away from market activity towards non-market activity (home production and lesiure). Since both income and consumption taxes lower the reward from working (by lowering what you earn and lowering the amount of goods what you earn buys respectively) both have work disincentive effects. The effects will of course be different depending on how progressive the tax is – although a moderate degree of progressivity probably enhances work incentives compared to a flat tax – but changing tax bases cannot eliminate work disincentives.

Taxing negative externalities (pollution etc) is a good idea, but such taxes tend to be very regressive and would not raise the sort of revenue required to replace current taxes. They also cause work disincentives.

Well, jshore, for anarchy to be a motivating principle it would need to be enforced :wink: Little too much paradox for me, thanks. ha
But seriously.
Of course a tax system will benefit some more than others, or harm some less than others depending on how you view the glass of water. What concerns me is not that we address the issue, but how we address it. I fully realize that in a market economy wealth is a snowballing kinda thing for most people. But we’re literally dumping money on people with a progressive tax. Unless we make the “slope” higher we aren’t really doing anything but handing a few alms to the poor. I find that to be belittling even more that flat-out ignoring them.
“Here, I guess you need this.”
I also think that people donating to the poor and other aide programs are stifled because, well, “They already get my f**king tax money.” I dunno.